Realm Abilities and their importance in DAoC?

[Stallion]

Sitting at work abit bored, something came to my mind.

Realm abilities have to great of an importance in daoc (specificly active ones)..
Do you think they affect the outcome of fights in daoc to much? Or maybe even to little? Do they add to big of a random factor to the game, as of taking the 'original' gameplay from the players control. You could apply this reasoning to MLs and artifacts aswell (rr5 ablities). Comparing it to OF gameplay where if you did something wrong or a misstake, it would prob cost you the fight. Today getting rps and comming out of fights alive aint the same as it was in previous years. A more random factor has been added to daoc and I belive its negative for the charm of the game.

What do you think?

 

[leviathane]

yes.

 

[eggy]

Not everyone has all the time in the world to play the game unfortunately; so realm abilities "balance" the game for the less experienced. This can be viewed as both a good and a bad thing; nobody likes losing to the so-called "i-win" abilities; but there are often ways to get around them.

RAs give targets to aim at. Passives are great; but I do think that some Actives should have their effectiveness decreased.

 

[Phake]

I think that in OF the game were more of a domination game .. one group could kill a whole zerg if the zerg wassent that high RR etc and the group was ofcuz ..

today its more even imo .. you have the MLs etc stuff that balances the OP'd realmabilitys .. not to say that they are .. but in comparison to the original chars skills and spells they are ..

but i could agree with the part about the randomness etc .. or atleast that it seems random .. i mean alot more tools in the game for each character now .. so its hard to keep track of all things happening in the fights .. in OF you pretty much knew everything going on in the fights..

dunno whats best etc .. i kinda like the idea of lots of tools etc

in short .. imo today is better...

 

[Javai]

Some RAs in some situations are simply we win buttons and these are not distributed evenly among the realms. (Compare the availability of TWF in groups between the 3 realms) Even ignoring the unique rr5 abilities, of which some are much more powerful than others.

I would prefer to see some toning down of the active RAs (remove 3rd level of them?) and lower caps on the passives (maybe at the 4th level rather than the 5th). This would mean that more variety would need to be introduced to prevent all the highest rr players having everything capped - so that there is still choice. Opening up more of the RAs to more classes would be a good start on this. There are also plenty of abilities in ML lines or on artifacts that could be added to the RA list. It's too dull when there are 'cookie cutter' RA specs.

 

[Stallion]

I think that in OF the game were more of a domination game .. one group could kill a whole zerg if the zerg wassent that high RR etc and the group was ofcuz ..

Imo this was not about RAs but about knowledge about the game. Most people back then that ran in zergs were (im sorry, but they were) very very clueless about what to do. Today the average player has gotten to know game mechanics and such. So I dont belive this because of RAs, (maybe partly) but not in the bigger picture.

but i could agree with the part about the randomness etc .. or atleast that it seems random .. i mean alot more tools in the game for each character now .. so its hard to keep track of all things happening in the fights .. in OF you pretty much knew everything going on in the fights..

The tools are on a timer, which makes it more random. It dosent seem random, it is random. Not because theres 'many' tools, but because they are on a reuse timer. Same with insta cc spells were in OF. (concidered by the majority as overpowered). I Dont agree with your point.

 

[Lothoras]

Not everyone has all the time in the world to play the game unfortunately; so realm abilities "balance" the game for the less experienced. This can be viewed as both a good and a bad thing; nobody likes losing to the so-called "i-win" abilities; but there are often ways to get around them.

RAs give targets to aim at. Passives are great; but I do think that some Actives should have their effectiveness decreased.

Ok, yes it balances the game for the less experienced.. but all of these abilities and stuff can also be given to the very experienced ones, which makes it again, unbalanced. or am i wrong? :E

 

[Stallion]

Ok, yes it balances the game for the less experienced.. but all of these abilities and stuff can also be given to the very experienced ones, which makes it again, unbalanced. or am i wrong? :E

Since their both on a timer, the outcome from it, is as posted above: more random. Im not saying rr4 moc3 sorc wins all the time every 15 mins, over a tank with EM3 down. (I want to keep specific RAs & classes out of the disscussion to avoid infecting the thread)

 

[Tuthmes]

It's all about active's/timed ability's now, people just dump all their ability's to win.

Comparing it to OF gameplay where if you did something wrong or a misstake, it would prob cost you the fight.

Yes, hence why people say that OF whas more a challenge, cause it actually required some timing/skill to use your ability and when used, there wasnt a whole lot of "i win" buttons left, so your playstyle decide'd the battle (picking the right target's etc). Also it's true that the gameplay has speeded up, due to ToA. Not only casting/melee spd wise, but also in how fast you die. You can argue that you need more skills then, but ToA changed the "skill" in DaoC from a tactical game, into who can press the button's the fastest. To keep this short, the combination of things (realm ability's/ml's/arti's) on certain classes have made them a bit OP. This is also true with certain groupsetups.

 

[Himse]

I think that they do really give some people advantages, increasing damage by alot (eg Staj you hit like a train, whereas a rr1 chanter would hit for less than you) Also actives like purge and ip, help to avoid death in some situations and stuff.

Also abilities like aug con / toughness may help for that last nuke for survival, although they are hardly worth it

+ Damage abilities like wrath of champions help to "instant kill" some people (eg champs: woc, banelords + dmges)

SoS, all sorts of things like that, really do help =)

 

[Konah]

well i think they were designed to have a big part. where this fails once again is the fact that some realms get 'uber' ra's on an essential or wanted grp util char and some need to take a gimp into grp to get the same RA ability. i think overall tho the situation is better these days. i miss pwning 6-7+fg's too but tbh it was a bit sick that u could even get away with it back then (especially as albs).

 

[Stallion]

well i think they were designed to have a big part. where this fails once again is the fact that some realms get 'uber' ra's on an essential or wanted grp util char and some need to take a gimp into grp to get the same RA ability. i think overall tho the situation is better these days. i miss pwning 6-7+fg's too but tbh it was a bit sick that u could even get away with it back then (especially as albs).

wont stroke the e-peen, but let the comments flowing. Its nice to read your replies. And dont forget to vote. I tought id be the only one voting for option #1. But apparently not :touch:

 

[>.< Pooned]

Since their both on a timer, the outcome from it, is as posted above: more random. Im not saying rr4 moc3 sorc wins all the time every 15 mins, over a tank with EM3 down. (I want to keep specific RAs & classes out of the disscussion to avoid infecting the thread)

haha a rr4 sorc with only Moc 3 got no facking chance to do something full passives till a decent rr imo

cant think of what u could do as a caster without starting ra dex 3 its pretty sucky xD without it

 

[Stallion]

haha a rr4 sorc with only Moc 3 got no facking chance to do something full passives till a decent rr imo

Dont know why you quote me and write the same thing I basicly said.

'im not saying rr4 moc3 sorc wins'

secondly.

'(I want to keep specific RAs & classes out of the disscussion to avoid infecting the thread)'

I dont know if you suffer from dyslexia or something (not taunting all of you with this symptom) but if you dont, id start reading what people write fully out to avoid missunderstandings.

 

[Chronictank]

yes, the divide between high rr and low rr is VERY visible,
various people (mentioning no names to avoid thread closures), who arent particularly good can win regularly simply because of their rr
Experience aside, a high rr grp will almost always win vs a low rr grp if both play well, they should have left realm abilities well alone the previous method of grps saving ra's in fights no longer exists because they are simply up pretty much all the time.
Not turning this into a nf vs of discussion but all of you who played in fg rvr OF and NF know i speak the truth
Rather than begin a new nerf crusade, putting the majority of actives on 15 min timers will re-adress the situation pretty quickly tbh

When it comes to zergs, its not so much rr's really but whether you have high rr supporting the zerg, failing that its just down to numbers so the difference is not noticable

But then we cant whine really, this game is being designed to be less and less on player skill and more and more on button mashing so its not as if we didnt see it coming. every patch they reduce one more element of "thinking" involved in this game

 

[Maeloch]

Huge effect, no doubt...tho their impacts been watered down by other timers. 1v1 RA's turn an easy kill into something completely different, or turn it round altogether. In grps too, just effect diluted between 8 peeps not always obvious to trace when it turns a fight, but they do...single moc on eldie clears pets on support when grp dying, then spams interrupts on enemy grp, etc.

Think the effect is fine, peeps like to see their toon progress and get harder. Whole point of RPGs is char progression and the fun you have on the way, it might not be fair....

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

well RA's is soposed to be a big part of the game, why else would they have introdused it ?

and that is why they keep re-balanceing ra's cuz they do have a big impact in RvR and PvE

 

[Stallion]

well RA's is soposed to be a big part of the game, why else would they have introdused it ?

and that is why they keep re-balanceing ra's cuz they do have a big impact in RvR and PvE

are they? 3 years ago you would say RAs, whats that?!
The game evolves, something which might be 'supposed to work in a way' today, might not tomorrow. So saying that ofcourse its how it should be, sounds strange and abit naive to me.

 

[daoc_xianghua]

I think that in OF the game were more of a domination game .. one group could kill a whole zerg if the zerg wassent that high RR etc and the group was ofcuz ..

today its more even imo .. you have the MLs etc stuff that balances the OP'd realmabilitys .. not to say that they are .. but in comparison to the original chars skills and spells they are ..

but i could agree with the part about the randomness etc .. or atleast that it seems random .. i mean alot more tools in the game for each character now .. so its hard to keep track of all things happening in the fights .. in OF you pretty much knew everything going on in the fights..

dunno whats best etc .. i kinda like the idea of lots of tools etc

in short .. imo today is better...

well the reason why you could farm whole zergs with a fg in OF was simply cuz there was hardly any casters around except for hibs and mostly stupid tanks that didnt assist at all. nowadays when a op´d fg faces a zerg you have 15 casters instantly nuking the shit out of whatever is in range.

ofc RA´s have had their impact aswell but it has more to do with the classes you find in the zerg imo.

 

[Stallion]

well the reason why you could farm whole zergs with a fg in OF was simply cuz there was hardly any casters around except for hibs and mostly stupid tanks that didnt assist at all. nowadays when a op´d fg faces a zerg you have 15 casters instantly nuking the shit out of whatever is in range.

ofc RA´s have had their impact aswell but it has more to do with the classes you find in the zerg imo.

I wouldnt agree with you as alb zerg (not as much for mid) was with alot of casters back in OF. Here BAoD came into play for the hib groups ability to face the zerg. But also today casters today hurt more then back then in OF, thus making your point more viable but in another way. imo.

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

are they? 3 years ago you would say RAs, whats that?!
The game evolves, something which might be 'supposed to work in a way' today, might not tomorrow. So saying that ofcourse its how it should be, sounds strange and abit naive to me.

when RA's came out all the actives was on 30 min timer, and very overpowered tbh, like BoF, SOS, BAOD, Grp Purge, PR...

but since NF came out they knew there would be fights more offen and lowered the times,effect and upped the prices for em.


but u need to balance things out to make it even, else the game would get borring too fast and ppl would quit.

 

[hanza]

interesting subject to debat

first i think there are some things that can 't be mixed up :

RAs are one point

ML and arties are another

then comparing OF and NF ... but i ll come to this later.


first point, ML and arties... well basically this is fluff and doesn t change anything to the game exept having more button to push. all realms and class have acces to same Ml path and arties. so you can t really say it brings unballance to the game.
besids the timer argument concerning thos is hardly recivable as some people (and i know many) won't run out unless they have everything up ... some people like me are playing for fun but it seems some other are playing to win noone is to blame some choose to bother waiting for arties /use to be up it s a personnal choice. but we are all free to do so. so basically this is a ballance. all seers got same pathline, arties, same for stealther etc.

RAs: this definatly makes the difference... we all experianced steamrolling low RR or beeing steamrolled by high RR. OFC experiance of the game, surprise etc makes a difference but having more button to choose between, gives you more flexibility, more chance to have the answer to the given situation and thus more chance to win. the unballanced thing is that we dont have acces to the same RA's

the way you are given acces to RA is just silly, quick exemple: valk only had late acces to charge, but still have acces to MoC eventho all their spells are now insta ... i could name other suprising stuff like this.

in another hand u realise as u gain RA's that we all tend to spec the same way (class by class) compare two casters RR10 they will roughly have the same tools so somehow it is ballanced.

RR5 abilities are somehow unfair as they are class specific and some of them are just silly (the SM comes first to my mind but there are other in other realms) while some other are just ubber (the shamy or cabby one for exemple)

eventho mythic tries to ballance the game it s very hard to keep it fair all the way long... but if u come to think of it, it s somehow normal that the people spending more time playing, or sticking to the same toon for years have some kind of reward at the end. that s why Ra's have been made imo and it cannot be ballanced. wouldn t u be frustrated if any noob could kick your ass after getting his first toon to 50 while u r playing it for years ??


last point, about OF: kinda agree with what have been said. there was less fluff in OF (no Ml, arties etc) so player had to rely on tactics and game mechanics knowledge. but that just made the gap bigger between low RR and high RR dudes...

somehow mythic is reducing the gap with adding fluff (Ml, arties) but still RA's makes the differeence.

 

[Stallion]

but u need to balance things out to make it even, else the game would get borring too fast and ppl would quit.

well making RA's less important would improve the balance, not undermine it. Or am I wrong? Reducing the importance of high RR characters.

Id like to push more for the downgrade of active RAs more then the passive ones.

 

[Light]

RA's play a huge part in any 1v1, fg v fg fight, and tbh i think that is ok.

I think the ML abilites and artifacts took this all too far tho and i don't like them.

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

well making RA's less important would improve the balance, not undermine it. Or am I wrong? Reducing the importance of high RR characters.

Id like to push more for the downgrade of active RAs more then the passive ones.

true, it would, but if u lower the "effect" of active ra's a lot then low rr's would just get some passives and and the high rr's would still have the passives + the actives that could change the fight from bad to good


so it would be a hard job to balance it out to make it even... well or more even unless u make the highest levels of all RA's only a tiny bit better than the lower but cost shit loads

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

I think the ML abilites and artifacts took this all too far tho and i don't like them.

ye ML's and Artys have just as big part in 1 on 1 at least as RA's

 

[Maeloch]

Other thing. I know the game is not (only) balanced around 1v1 and small grp encounters, but they do usefully scramble the outcome of fights which, based on class, would be 100% a foregone conclusion and predictable without RAs.

 

[Stallion]

interesting subject to debat
first point, ML and arties... well basically this is fluff and doesn t change anything to the game exept having more button to push. all realms and class have acces to same Ml path and arties. so you can t really say it brings unballance to the game.

It has never been an disscussion about them bringing unbalance really. Its how big part their supposed to play in this game. I wouldnt say the balance was switched due to artifacts (NOTE: MLs is something id put in the category of realm abilities). With ToA you did faster/bigger dmg, and 'better' heals. Thus making the game alot faster. (dosent bring unbalance, but more extreme values. Regarding healing vs damage in one way or another. (Atleast in my eyes)

besids the timer argument concerning thos is hardly recivable as some people (and i know many) won't run out unless they have everything up ... some people like me are playing for fun but it seems some other are playing to win noone is to blame some choose to bother waiting for arties /use to be up it s a personnal choice. but we are all free to do so. so basically this is a ballance. all seers got same pathline, arties, same for stealther
etc.

Not accepting my argument about timers is one thing, but I dont see it to be due to everyone playing when their 'timers' always are up. Sure some do, but if your out running, I doubt you have 1 fight (you win) and then wait for timers.

RAs: this definatly makes the difference... we all experianced steamrolling low RR or beeing steamrolled by high RR. OFC experiance of the game, surprise etc makes a difference but having more button to choose between, gives you more flexibility, more chance to have the answer to the given situation and thus more chance to win. the unballanced thing is that we dont have acces to the same RA's

Given that the character that jumps you due to: greater experiance of the game, 'skill' or surprise. RAs are based around singel situations. If you get outplayed by a better player, I dont belive RAs should be there to balance it out. But I agree that its more or less also imbalancing due to the choice of RAs between classes.

in another hand u realise as u gain RA's that we all tend to spec the same way (class by class) compare two casters RR10 they will roughly have the same tools so somehow it is ballanced.

I think your talking about balance between classes and not about the game itself. Game is far from balanced even if two characters have the identical RA's & equipment! Why? Well because they are timer based. Its only balanced if they have everything up, and fight eachother. Surely this is the case from time to time, but hardly a majort part.

last point, about OF: kinda agree with what have been said. there was less fluff in OF (no Ml, arties etc) so player had to rely on tactics and game mechanics knowledge. but that just made the gap bigger between low RR and high RR dudes...

So in which way does a high RR have an advantage over and low RR, in the regard of tactics and game mechanics?

Do you mean that MLs and artifacts are meant to reduce the gap between high rr and low rr? This point is hard for me to understand when both high and low rr have access to artifacts and MLs, and to add ontop of that. Taking into account that, lets say the higher rr is a more 'dedicated' daoc player he will probably have the advantage also in this area (MLs & artifacts).

You seem to speak against yourself. Saying that RAs & ML/Artis make up the balance of high v low rr. And on the otherhand say that RAs play a bigger part of the game that artis/mls had to be introduced. Concidering atleast artifacts is more balanced then MLs & RAs, reducing the importance of RA's & ML's would balance the game more. And bring it back to what it once was about.

 

[Eleasias]

I dont think RA's affect 8vs8 that much, or zerg vs zerg, at rr5ish you have the basics that youn need. In 1v1 if you pop MoC and lifetap you're probably going to win.

 

[Ging]

Sitting at work abit bored, something came to my mind.

same here, someone threw a tennis ball at my head...

on topic,

i play my cabby with the absolute minimum of actives, why? well mostly because i feel most of the time they are a waste of ra points, 90% of the time they are not up, more so the more u rely on them the less you rely on yourself (timing, target choice, positioning etc.)

MoC for instance, probably one of the most powerfull RA's allow you to basically run in and cast uninterupted for 30 secs. Thats all very well but what if you have to perform when MoC is down but your positioning is crap as you normally have it up. Im not the best player in the game im well aware of that but i feel ive improved my game by loosing the actives. I felt it sharpened my play as I knew I didnt have that safety cushion to rely on. Its quite a bold step the leave the "i-win" abilities behind but i felt if I was to improve myself I had no choice.