re: herjulfs relic raid thread.

[Pin]

Originally posted by Gekul
If you're going to delete threads, you need a better explanation than "It's lame".

Well, it's against the CoC to cross-realm communicate. Doesn't matter if it was 'aimed at mids'. Things _should_ also be communicated in-game.


But in reality, what did it do? How many mids were reading the forums, but weren't in game to hear over /as or /gu? Probably none.

All it served was to let Albs know that the Mids knew about the raid (as it was most likely to be Albs reading the forum anyway) and for them to react accordingly (I don't know how they reacted, because I wasn't online).

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
How the fuck can you compare a Relic Raid with an allout PVE raid that has no human opposition? The whole point of Realm versus Realm is that it's against other PEOPLE!

Only a completely stupid realm would attack someone who is doing a dragonraid or any other raid that involves alot of high level players. If even ONE person shouts relic raid you instantly have a vey large number of high levels minutes away from defending.

To post on BW to get people to log on is pathetic, there is a reason you have to be INGAME TO USE /AS.

I compared it cause it can both be used for cross realm communication, I didnt compare the raids themselves to eachother, sorry if you couldnt figure that out.

Tilda took as an example that a Hib could have read it and cause of that decide to camp amg. True. But a hib/mid might aswell read that you are gonna have a dragonraid and then go take your keeps. Not that it matters atm, but if you had relics it would have, we would either fuck up your dragonraid, or take your relics, cause we knew you were on dragonraid, and we knew it cause of BW, which means it was crossrealm communication, and therefor, using Tildas example, it shouldnt be allowed to post dragonraids threads.

 

[Damini]

I fully support Tilda in his deletion of the original thread. While we at BW try to only delete threads that can be seem as upsetting to people or that actively violate the CoC, we also have a responsibility towards people's enjoyment of the game. Tilda took a decision that announcing that a raid was happening jeapordised other people's enjoyment of the game - if you have in game communication, you should use it. BW should not be used as source to alert you to raids going on, whether this is the inadvertent cause of a thread or whether it is the motive of a thread.

Had this thread been posted after the event, I have no doubt at all it would have stayed in place.

People are getting overtly hostile, but all Tilda did was try to maintain the game environment. It is a hard line to maintain, and we're human, but at the end of the day all we're trying to do is the best we can. If anyone else believes a thread compromises the in-game communication of a raid, then they should report it and we will try to delete it before it is too late.

P.S. I have drunk a bit too much wine but I'm fairly confident i still make sense. If i dont I'll edit in the morning...

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by Damini
Tilda took a decision that announcing that a raid was happening jeapordised other people's enjoyment of the game - if you have in game communication, you should use it.

So having to suicide on your dragonraid that was 2 weeks worth of planning, cause someone read on BW that you were gonna have it and therefor attacked your relics isnt ruining the enjoyment of the game for those who planned/attended the dragonraid??

 

[Damini]

Is that not covered by this?

Originally posted by Damini
If anyone else believes a thread compromises the in-game communication of a raid, then they should report it and we will try to delete it before it is too late.

 

[old.Xarr]

where exactly in the coc does it say that using irc and forums are an illegal way of communication.

having an extra spy-account and knowing of the raid before it happens is one thing, but seeing a raid in progress and mentioning it on irc or making a post on a forum is a completely other thing.

 

[Damini]

Where did I say it was illegal? I did make reference to the fact that for many people it makes the game less enjoyable, but i never threw the CoC at anyone.

 

[Karnage]

Xarr, Damini just pwned you

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by Mythic CoC

You may NOT cross-team spy.

Well, this is agreeing with what Tilda says..

Originally posted by Mythic EULA

You may not use any of your own or third-party software to change Game play.

This too..

Originally posted by Mythic EULA

SUCH CONDUCT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED AND SHALL CONSTITUTE A MATERIAL BREACH OF THIS EULA

And this justifies her actions.

 

[hint]

Originally posted by noaim
So having to suicide on your dragonraid that was 2 weeks worth of planning, cause someone read on BW that you were gonna have it and therefor attacked your relics isnt ruining the enjoyment of the game for those who planned/attended the dragonraid??

i reiterate what i said before.

if you are dumb enough to anounce to the whole world you are doing a raid it is your own damn fault. if someone was to come onto bw and tell everyone "The Albs are doing a dragon raid quick take their keeps" that is not your fault it is a malisious and spitefull attempt by said person to ruin the raid for the people on the raid. not to mention the people who have spent countless hours organiseing and funnleing the zerg and keeping it from the other realms.

 

[old.Xarr]

Originally posted by Damini
Where did I say it was illegal? I did make reference to the fact that for many people it makes the game less enjoyable, but i never threw the CoC at anyone.

so everytime a thread 'makes the game less enjoyable' for people it needs to be deleted?

then alot of deleting needs to be made

 

[old.Xarr]

Originally posted by Mythic CoC
You may NOT cross-team spy.

What happened had NOTHING with cross-team spying to do.

Originally posted by Mythic EULA
You may not use any of your own or third-party software to change Game play.

That line goes for tools like daox/dtoc/radar.

Originally posted by Mythic EULA
SUCH CONDUCT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED AND SHALL CONSTITUTE A MATERIAL BREACH OF THIS EULA

The thread did not break the CoC/EUALA in ANY way whatsoever.

 

[Damini]

Ok, we can be pedantic till the cows come home, but we have to make decisions here and not everyone will agree 100% of the time. What we're trying to do is maintain the enjoyable game environment for everyone, and I cant really understand why we are being criticised for that. It's not malicious censorship, it's not like we're fascistly oppressing the masses, we're trying to keep the game playable for the majority.

The thread that was deleted wasn't a deliberate attempt to sabotage people's raids. However, as a consequence of the thread it could be seen to upset the balance of the game for some people. A quick decision was made, and the thread was deleted, not because it was malicious, not because it was offensive, but because it was poorly timed.

I'm sorry to those it has caused genuine offense to, but I suspect those people are in the minority and the rest understand why the decision was made. As was said, we have no problem at all with the thread, simply its timing.

Anyway, I'm a bit tiddley so I'm going to bed to watch The Warriors. Night xx

 

[old.Xarr]

hrmf.

 

[Brevis]

Okay then.

On the alb board you will find a post about the mids sieging BG3 keep. It was posted at 21:15 by an alb asking for people to come join in defending.

I was at that raid, and at 21:15 the raid was still on.

I know this is a smaller scale but tell me in what way this thread differs from the post Herjulf made?

 

[Damini]

Originally posted by Damini
If anyone else believes a thread compromises the in-game communication of a raid, then they should report it and we will try to delete it before it is too late.

 

[Karnage]

Originally posted by Brevis
I know this is a smaller scale but tell me in what way this thread differs from the post Herjulf made?

because BG3 doesn't count

its not exactly taken seriously by anyone is it?

and how far into the raid were you at the time of that posting?

the RR one was posted before we left the ATK properlly (i checked as we left)

 

[Brevis]

Good point, but since I was playing I was unable to do so.

I can see the moderators roam these boards frequently and seem to delete topics on their own, why wasnt this deleted right away (or when spotted) when Herjulf's post was.
According to your mod a post like this will ruin the ingame fun for someone and should be deleted accordingly.
Im just wondering why it isnt because its the same thing really.

Free speech for everyone or for none at all.

Edit: Its the point of it all. Either all the way or nothing at all, cant have "kindda" rules.

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by Damini
Is that not covered by this?

Ok, it is, but can you explain to me why this same Tilda put a sticky on an alb dragonraid thread but deleted this thread then?

And also, why she gets away with it?

 

[Damini]

Gah, I just want to go to sleep, so here goes, a final speel.

These forums are moderated after the fact. We cant pre-emptively moderate, because we arent in Minority Report, or in the habit of having people submit all posts in e-mail with 24 hrs notice, so we can scan through them and pre-approve the posts. So, we have to moderate already existing posts. This makes ALL or nothing moderating kind of hard. We rely on people reporting posts to alert us to issues because we cannot be expected to read every single post on these forums, bearing in mind 20,000 posts are made a month.

So, since we can actively moderate everything, we do the best we can, which I believe is a firm improvement from doing sod all. If people feel something is wrong, they can report the post. Did you report the other post? No. You are only complaining because this post being moderated has annoyed you, which leaves me to believe you are complaining on principle rather than because you actually felt worried by the other thread. Which is all very good from an argumentative stance, but it does not help us set precidents for what should or shouldn't be done.

Like I will say for the fourth time now, if you believe a thread could upset the balance of the game, report it. We will then do what we can, if we feel it appropriate.

We have four active mods here, two play the game still and two do not (at last count). This was arranged so that we get a fair spread of both active players and non-involved mods, however it means that some of us may not be so quick to notice in-game politics. It is then down to other people to report the threads where this occurs and we will try to deal the best we can.

Anyway, seriously, the last post from me tonight.

 

[Brevis]

Just as tired here

And yes this is a principle matter to me.

I wont report this post since it is no longer up to date etc, but at the time posted it was up to date, it could ruin ingame fun and it was posted public here on BW.

Exactly the same as Herjulf's post. But it is a very simple thing, either you delete all posts like this or you dont. Its a matter of moderation everything equally or nothing at all.

It has nothing to do with "oh them albs have a mod on their side yada yada". Im just asking for everything to be moderated equally.

edit: The 13-03-03 there was a post made on the midgard board stating Albs were doing a Relic Raid on mids, encouraging people to defend the relic. This was not moderated even though it was posted during the raid.

 

[Driwen]

the biggest reason why people are angry about this is probably, because it has been allowed for 3/4 times already on big RvR raids. So plz if you read a thread that seems to be like a warning or has a post in it that can serve as one. Delete the thread or if its to late, make a post in it and say that you rather not have such threads. Because this isnt the first thread that i have seen that warned me about a raid, well they were all to late except for one. Which was a post by an alb himself saying the relics are neutral now crossing fingers . So i woke up my bro and we both logged in .
But plz make sure everyone knows that you do not allow threads that can be served as warning for people that a raid is going on atm. No one knew about this policy. So yes to suddenly do it causes people to react like they did now.

 

[Jiggs]

Originally posted by Brevis
Okay then.

On the alb board you will find a post about the mids sieging BG3 keep. It was posted at 21:15 by an alb asking for people to come join in defending.

I was at that raid, and at 21:15 the raid was still on.

I know this is a smaller scale but tell me in what way this thread differs from the post Herjulf made?

rofl

um yeah wotever dude

 

[old.Xarr]

I'm not going to bother arguing any more.

Tilda: Just think before you delete a post, please.

 

[Cabo-]

Originally posted by Subbiz
i got a staff kill, thx!

so ?

 

[Jiggs]

ya i do staff kills all the time

 

[--Eraser--]

Originally posted by driwen
But plz make sure everyone knows that you do not allow threads that can be served as warning for people that a raid is going on atm. No one knew about this policy. So yes to suddenly do it causes people to react like they did now.

thats the point in my opinion. this case seems to be the first one (or at least the first which got bigger attention) which was handled this strict way.
and with tilda playing on alb side and deleting this post which pointed to an alb relic raid, no wonder strange ideas coming in ppls minds.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by noaim
I compared it cause it can both be used for cross realm communication, I didnt compare the raids themselves to eachother, sorry if you couldnt figure that out.

Tilda took as an example that a Hib could have read it and cause of that decide to camp amg. True. But a hib/mid might aswell read that you are gonna have a dragonraid and then go take your keeps. Not that it matters atm, but if you had relics it would have, we would either fuck up your dragonraid, or take your relics, cause we knew you were on dragonraid, and we knew it cause of BW, which means it was crossrealm communication, and therefor, using Tildas example, it shouldnt be allowed to post dragonraids threads.

http://www.camelotherald.com/townsquare/

Doesn't look like it's counted as crossrealm communication since it's an official page and they are encouraged to used it.

Apparently, you are wrong, Noaim! (irony with nicks own)

 

[-wabbit-]

Mids

Mids are gheylords

 

[Vengeful]

simply abuse of power

Tilda abused his power as a mod, which is quite clear.

There are NO RULES ANYWHERE, that forbid this kind of Post according to GAME.net's CnC. This post was deleted as a matter of personal preference, and without precedence. GAME.net's forums aren't realted to GOA or Mythic, they are here for ppl to talk ABOUT DAOC.

Talking about a Relic raid IS talking about the game and VERY MUCH on topic. Personal opinions have no place to override policy as was done by Tilda.

He should be removed as a moderater on these forums.