RA maybe arent that good :p

[-Lonewolf-]

Well I couldn't give a toss about RP's, with a beer in one hand and a hot looking women in the other I know where I would rather be!

Thats right BLOODY BUTLINS WOOHOO!

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Pin


And again I make the point that there is no stat available showing the amount of time played by any of these characters.

So what you're saying is that during the day while I'm at work the only people playing DAoC are tanks? There are stealthers who play 24/7 there are tanks that play 24/7. An average is what it says, it takes everyone into account and gives you an average number.

Originally posted by Pin

I disagree here again. You should say:
"Some stealthers have a lot more rps than most non-stealthers, and some non-stealthers have a lot more rps than most stealthers, fact!"

But that wouldn't be nearly as broad a generalisation as you were hoping to make in your post, so therefore you didn't post that.

Sorry your quote is wrong what you meant is
Most stealthers have more rps than most non stealthers
Some non stealthers have more rps than most stealthers

Let's take a look at the top level 50 characters in albion, of which there is 315, only 61 of which are stealthers yet if you start from position 168, only 3 stealthers exist below this point. That mean nearly every stealther has more rps than the majority of non stealthers.

Originally posted by Pin

So if a stealther is in the top 25 then all stealthers are overpowered, and make RPs much easier than everyone else and it has nothing to do with them playing for 100 hours that week, but if a Mercenary, Wizard, Theurgist, Friar, Paladin or whatever gets in the top 25 then they are the exception to the rule, they had a good week, they were lucky with their 2000 kills, they leeched them off other group members, etc, etc ?

No, and that's why we take the averages and not RP per week, you brought rp per week into this not me. The fact of the matter is that on average stealthers have more rps than non stealthers, that's all there is too it really. Stealthers have more rps, more realm points = more realm abilities = advantage.
Therefore stealthers have an advantage.

Originally posted by Pin

Also, I am hardly saying that because I have a level 50 infiltrator, I therefore can speak with authority and coherency about any subject. If anything it'll allow people to completely disregard any statement I make due to me obviously being biased.

Your arguments demonstrate your bias. My opinion is based on hard data, all the information you need is on the chronicles, stealthers have more rps than non stealthers (Really this should be RvR friendly classes, of which stealthers are one, this is not a stealther specific argument). If one class has more realm points than another they can buy more realm abilities and give themselves a greater advantage.

And you didn't answer the question about leveling, you believe that one class can gain xp faster than another class, yet you don't believe one class can gain rps faster than another, is it just me or is there some contradiction here?

Talifer

 

[Tranquil-]

the thing that some people are more group friendly in pve doesn't apply to rvr in the extent we see it in pve.

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
the thing that some people are more group friendly in pve doesn't apply to rvr in the extent we see it in pve.

Sorry had a power cut at work so I'll do the quick answer before the long one I just lost

I made no reference to the "extent" to which it applies, it does apply simple as that. Are you saying you'd turn down an AoE mez sorc for a Mercenary?

Talifer

 

[Flimgoblin]

I can mezz with my parry skill!
honest guvnor...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Talifer
So what you're saying is that during the day while I'm at work the only people playing DAoC are tanks? There are stealthers who play 24/7 there are tanks that play 24/7. An average is what it says, it takes everyone into account and gives you an average number.

No, I'm saying that during the day, while we're at work, there are lots of people out there playing all day long. These people level to 50 sooner, these people make more RPs in a week. Whether stealthers or not.

Originally posted by Talifer
No, and that's why we take the averages and not RP per week, you brought rp per week into this not me. The fact of the matter is that on average stealthers have more rps than non stealthers, that's all there is too it really. Stealthers have more rps, more realm points = more realm abilities = advantage.
Therefore stealthers have an advantage.

But the average you are taking is just an average of level 50 characters. A very biased sample. You have already said that you agree that Infiltrators take a lot more commitment to get to 50 than other characters, so once they hit 50, could you also consider that they are also playing more RvR and would therefore inherently get more RPs from that?

Originally posted by Talifer
Your arguments demonstrate your bias. My opinion is based on hard data, all the information you need is on the chronicles, stealthers have more rps than non stealthers (Really this should be RvR friendly classes, of which stealthers are one, this is not a stealther specific argument). If one class has more realm points than another they can buy more realm abilities and give themselves a greater advantage.

As do your arguments. The one point I'll concede (which you haven't actually stated), is:

Playing solo, stealthers make RPs faster than other classes playing solo.

BUT.

Groups make faster than solo characters.

Originally posted by Talifer
And you didn't answer the question about leveling, you believe that one class can gain xp faster than another class, yet you don't believe one class can gain rps faster than another, is it just me or is there some contradiction here?

Okay. I'll clarify.

1) If of equal level, everyone in a group gains experience at the same rate.

2) If you are lower level than the group, you'll tend to level up faster.

3) Groups gain experience faster than solo players.

4) If solo, an Infiltrator finds it harder to gain experience than other characters.

5) Infiltrators find it harder to get into an exp group than other characters.


What this boils down to is an Inf will generally spend a long time looking for a group. In that time, he'll gain exp very slowly. When he finds a group that lets him join he'll invariably be higher level than say the Theurgist, Cleric or Minstrel (who'll then be levelling faster than he did at that level). And eventually he'll reach 50 (btw, it is vastly easier for an Inf after patches 1.46-48 than before).

Now, for RvR. As long as you are in a decent group with speed and mezz, you'll kill a lot more, a lot quicker than anyone solo. If you don't have these basics, you'll likely die to the enemy that does.

For a stealther, we can largely ignore this, avoid the group, avoid the AE mezz and pick out solo targets. This won't get faster RPs, but it's better than a solo armsman running around.

 

[Talifer]

OK I'll try this again, fingers crossed I don't get another power cut, at least I can explain why I didn't do any work today now

Originally posted by Pin


Yes, levelling to 50 is just time dependant. If you are able to safely kill a green con mob, then eventually you'll hit 50.

Please tell me you aren't serious!

So if a tank solos green mobs 24/7 and a sorc solos groups of blue mobs 24/7 they'll both hit 50 in the same /played time? Of course not that's obsurd, just like saying if a Paladin solos RvR 24/7 and a scout solos RvR 24/7 they'll both hit rank 5 in the same /played. Different classes are better at different things, some classes are better at PvE some are better at RvR, that's the way it is, thus some classes will gain RPs faster than others.

Originally posted by Pin

Pre patch 1.48 (in Europe, as a collection of 1.46, 47 and 48), Infiltrators couldn't actually safely kill a blue con mob solo, and offered (still offer) very little to any group, so yes. It was harder than a lot of classes (you'll also notice I have an earth spec Theurgist, so I know how easy levelling can be also).

And I'll state again, as you haven't yet spotted me saying it:

Groups in RvR make faster RPs than Infiltrators do solo. FACT! Almost however that group is made up, as long as it has speed and mezz it will make RPs much faster.

Maybe I was trying to blank that obviously unfactual "fact". It is possible to get some good RPs in a well balanced group, but while the tanks of the world try and organise such a group, the stealthers have made 10k rps. If groups make such great rps why are there so many soloing stealthers out there? Maybe you should educate them? The fact is on average soloing stealthers make more rps than groups, how many AoE mezzers does albion have? There's only so many good groups to go around.

I should state this again

I'm not making these figures up, RvR friendly classes (of which stealthers are probably the best) have more rps on average than not so friendly classes like the paladin.

Originally posted by Pin

The reason I don't do this is that I enjoy playing my character solo, Infiltrators are a lot of fun (especially all the funky ninja moves). I cannot stand zergs. Low frame rate is usually immediate death to an infiltrator whose primary attack is from stealth and front positional. My computer is so crap that I cannot even /stick to someone running up a hill without dropping off the back, let alone charge around emain in a gank squad.

And if I could re-class I'd probably join you, since mezz/stun/nuked, while I'm sure you'll agree is a thoroughly entertaining way to spend your evenings, is wearing a little thin.

Talifer

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Talifer


Sorry had a power cut at work so I'll do the quick answer before the long one I just lost

I made no reference to the "extent" to which it applies, it does apply simple as that. Are you saying you'd turn down an AoE mez sorc for a Mercenary?

Talifer

Why not just have the 9th person run with you? This just makes you stronger in RvR. You won't find that happening in PvE

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Talifer
Maybe I was trying to blank that obviously unfactual "fact". It is possible to get some good RPs in a well balanced group, but while the tanks of the world try and organise such a group, the stealthers have made 10k rps. If groups make such great rps why are there so many soloing stealthers out there? Maybe you should educate them? The fact is on average soloing stealthers make more rps than groups, how many AoE mezzers does albion have? There's only so many good groups to go around.

The mention of the word "fact" was a tongue-in-cheek reference to your own uses, which were nothing more than a conclusion drawn from a statistic. Sorry that you failed to spot that.

And yes, it is widely understood that gank squads are better RP farmers than solo stealthers. It's a shame that Midgard and Hibernia can form them much easier. (LEVEL UP THOSE SORCERERS!)

Originally posted by Talifer
I should state this again

I'm not making these figures up, RvR friendly classes (of which stealthers are probably the best) have more rps on average than not so friendly classes like the paladin.

Ah, the word "probably". Well, I'd say that speed+mezz/stun/root+nuke was probably more RvR friendly, and will get even more so in this patch when an assassin will no longer remain stealthed on a kill (thus forcing us to be even more choosy about our targets than we already are).

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Pin


Of course it affects the averages for all tanks, but as I said. There are 65 level 50 armsmen and 16 level 50 Infiltrators. Now, which would be distorted more by 8 people playing 10 times as much as the rest?

The sample size is just not big enough for the Infiltrators where only 2% of them are level 50, but 5.5% of Armsmen are level 50. Why don't you compile averages for the top 20% of the two classes and have another look, or would that statistic not illustrate your point of view well enough?

Again I quote Benjamin Disraeli:
"Lies, damn lies and statistics"

OK as you wish, I'll use Paladin's and Infiltrators, I'm using paladins because it's quicker since armsmen can be armswomen as well.

Paladins

Total 841 (20% = top 168)
Total RP for top 20% = 5,295,221
Average RP for top 20% = 32,129

Infiltrators
Total 763 (20% = top 152)
Total RP for top 20% = 6,734,817
Average RP for top 20% = 44,308

So is this enough proof for you? I suspect not

Talifer

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Talifer


OK as you wish, I'll use Paladin's and Infiltrators, I'm using paladins because it's quicker since armsmen can be armswomen as well.

Paladins

Total 841 (20% = top 168)
Total RP for top 20% = 5,295,221
Average RP for top 20% = 32,129

Infiltrators
Total 763 (20% = top 152)
Total RP for top 20% = 6,734,817
Average RP for top 20% = 44,308

So is this enough proof for you? I suspect not

Talifer

That'll do for me. A 38% difference certainly makes things look less biased than the 4.37x difference the statistic you were quoting before "proved".

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Pin


No, I'm saying that during the day, while we're at work, there are lots of people out there playing all day long. These people level to 50 sooner, these people make more RPs in a week. Whether stealthers or not.



But the average you are taking is just an average of level 50 characters. A very biased sample. You have already said that you agree that Infiltrators take a lot more commitment to get to 50 than other characters, so once they hit 50, could you also consider that they are also playing more RvR and would therefore inherently get more RPs from that?

I've given you a less "biased" sample above [Edit: It's above now not below ], still proves my point.

On the other side of the coin, I'd say that it takes a hell of a lot more commitment to gain RPs as a paladin, so the ones that do have a lot more RPs. So I'd say the argument cancels itself out.

Originally posted by Pin

As do your arguments. The one point I'll concede (which you haven't actually stated), is:

Playing solo, stealthers make RPs faster than other classes playing solo.

BUT.

Groups make faster than solo characters.

No groups that have the right make up of classes CAN gain rps faster than soloers. But soloing doesn't just mean sneaking around the woods looking for lone targets. If you watch the good archers they'll stand at the side of a large battle and randomly pling arrows into people in the confusion, this gets a whole lot more rps than stealthing about, tanks can't do this.

Originally posted by Pin

Okay. I'll clarify.

1) If of equal level, everyone in a group gains experience at the same rate.

2) If you are lower level than the group, you'll tend to level up faster.

3) Groups gain experience faster than solo players.

4) If solo, an Infiltrator finds it harder to gain experience than other characters.

5) Infiltrators find it harder to get into an exp group than other characters.


What this boils down to is an Inf will generally spend a long time looking for a group. In that time, he'll gain exp very slowly. When he finds a group that lets him join he'll invariably be higher level than say the Theurgist, Cleric or Minstrel (who'll then be levelling faster than he did at that level). And eventually he'll reach 50 (btw, it is vastly easier for an Inf after patches 1.46-48 than before).

Now, for RvR. As long as you are in a decent group with speed and mezz, you'll kill a lot more, a lot quicker than anyone solo. If you don't have these basics, you'll likely die to the enemy that does.

For a stealther, we can largely ignore this, avoid the group, avoid the AE mezz and pick out solo targets. This won't get faster RPs, but it's better than a solo armsman running around.

I do apologies I had completely forgotten that people have to form groups for xping but that they magically materialise when you go RvR.

Talifer

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Pin


Why not just have the 9th person run with you? This just makes you stronger in RvR. You won't find that happening in PvE

Because I play for fun, not maximum rps

Talifer

 

[Talifer]

Damn Echekiel, you trouble causer

Talifer

 

[Pin]

Anyways... I think Realm Abilities will be great. I'll be getting:

Zone Nuke: 64k range 3,000,000 dps PBAE (10 points).

What? Did you miss that one?

 

[Vireb]

everyone is saying about infils are so great for rvr etc ppl forget they got a big nerf this patch no more 1s kills is going to hurt them (not all)
and i kinda agree with both arguments in some sence

ask an infil why he made an infil ask someone whos making an infil alt why there making an infil
reply = Because they rock in rvr

As for the stats that show armsman at number 3 well you must remember this is also post 1.52 which means armsman and melee chars live longer in melee therefore chances are you will get more rps. and assasins less, pa wont hit as hard etc (new resists etc). Also i think either 1.5 or 1.51 increases mutliplier for rp for grped members (before rp would pretty much suck in grps) this also helps tank classes and more grp orientated classes and once again closses the gap on assasins going solo.
so basically imo atm

you can earn rp easily in a grp ive made 30k in one night. yes atm assasins can proberly earn more than that in one night quite easily but things will change.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Vireb
everyone is saying about infils are so great for rvr etc ppl forget they got a big nerf this patch no more 1s kills is going to hurt them (not all)
and i kinda agree with both arguments in some sence

Yes, 1-shots being removed will definately hurt. Much less likelihood of being able to get to the back of a group and take out a caster and live.

Originally posted by Vireb
ask an infil why he made an infil ask someone whos making an infil alt why there making an infil
reply = Because they rock in rvr

Yup. But most of them do get a surprise in that it's not all as advertised.

Originally posted by Vireb
you can earn rp easily in a grp ive made 30k in one night. yes atm assasins can proberly earn more than that in one night quite easily but things will change.

Well, I've never made 30k in one night (maybe all day on a weekend). Usually it's a steady 15k for me. I guess I don't play enough (or I suck).

 

[Tranquil-]

I made no reference to the "extent" to which it applies, it does apply simple as that. Are you saying you'd turn down an AoE mez sorc for a Mercenary?

rofl, Talifer, is things either black or white? Must be in your world.
You look at stuff _so_ biased that it is a mystery to me how you have been able to live through all the issues this game has had and not gone mad. I said to THE EXTENT we see in rvr, ofcourse group composition still matters, you throw out half finished reasons like there's no tomorrow. _TO THE EXTENT_ <-- please tell me what you read that as.

Why not just have the 9th person run with you? This just makes you stronger in RvR. You won't find that happening in PvE

-pin

Because I play for fun, not maximum rps

-talifer

So you would NOT have that 9th person run around with you? Because you play for fun? Is it boring to have the guy running with your group? Why is that? GAH, these discussions are pointless. I'll just have to accept that Talifer haven't got the right insight to this, like _I_ do

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Pin
Anyways... I think Realm Abilities will be great. I'll be getting:

Zone Nuke: 64k range 3,000,000 dps PBAE (10 points).

What? Did you miss that one?

I'm saving up for Realm Nuke, it's on 1 minute timer and insta-kills everything in a given realm (except me). Yes, even mobs, so I'll be 50 after I use it once or twice. It costs 78 points tho.

 

[ilmater]

you guys should get a hotel room or something

 

[Aussie-]

BULLSHIT

Saw Huma with 196k , Jaws with 220k( both tanks) in 1 week.
They played for their rp's , they get more RA's.

Only reason why stealthers have more rp's is b/c it's fun and they enjoy RvR so they play it more then others.

as for RA's.
Dont see what's gonna change that to RvR now.
Haven't really noticed a big difference

All cool stuff got 30 min timers anyway T_T

 

[Javai]

Originally posted by Aussie-
BULLSHIT

Only reason why stealthers have more rp's is b/c it's fun and they enjoy RvR so they play it more then others.

And that isn't because it's easier for them? Tanks don't enjoy RvR because it sucks being a tank in RvR, unless you have a good group.

 

[Javai]

Originally posted by Pin


Well, I've never made 30k in one night (maybe all day on a weekend). Usually it's a steady 15k for me. I guess I don't play enough (or I suck).

How long a play time for 15k a night Pin? As a tank going with the zerg for most of the night playing all my spare time (about 5 hours on a week night) I'm lucky to break 6k. Recently I had my best ever stint and made 13k in one night.

 

[old.[BF]MaD]

statistics about stealthers / non-stealthers = crap


rps = emain(or wherever) time spent

u spend more time in rvr ? u get more rps , simple as that
u may not be a solo class ? get a group ?


if u think its easy to solo as minstrel / scout / inf ?
easy for u to say if u havent played one in rvr
it just so happens that i die quite often while soloing and in no hope of getting a res , i have to release , but i DO go back

tanks however usually get pissed cuz they get mezzed - stunned - whacked without doing one thing and therefor dont port back or spend as much time in rvr as other chars

like aussie said , and i dont usually agree with him...
huma , hatji , arthwyr , all "gimp" tanks and all have been in top 25 realmpoint earners with over 150k/week

and thats purely cuz they spent their hours in emain

 

[Talifer]

And I'll say again, two different classes in PvE will gain xp at different rates for one reason or another, so why is it so hard for you to believe that different classes in RvR will gain rps at different rates?

Talifer

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


rofl, Talifer, is things either black or white? Must be in your world.
You look at stuff _so_ biased that it is a mystery to me how you have been able to live through all the issues this game has had and not gone mad. I said to THE EXTENT we see in rvr, ofcourse group composition still matters, you throw out half finished reasons like there's no tomorrow. _TO THE EXTENT_ <-- please tell me what you read that as.

Yes the argument is black or white, are some classes able to gain rps faster than others? Yes or No, that's pretty black and white to me. You can discuss the "extent" of this once you conceed this point.

There is no bias in the stats I am looking at, I'm not trying to defend my advantage as a stealther, I'm not trying to explain my lack of rps as a tank. I'm looking at the server numbers and making an obvious conclusion. You are the one trying to disprove the stats with assumptions about play time etc...

Originally posted by Tranquil-

-pin
-talifer

So you would NOT have that 9th person run around with you? Because you play for fun? Is it boring to have the guy running with your group? Why is that? GAH, these discussions are pointless. I'll just have to accept that Talifer haven't got the right insight to this, like _I_ do

The point is I don't only go to emain if I have the perfect group, I go to emain for some fun with which ever friends want to join me. This means sometimes I get good xp since a sorc and minstrel happen to join. Sometimes I get very poor xp when it's just 4 tanks and no speed. This is why stealthers earn more rp per /played hour. It doesn't matter about the group make up, they can make rps solo in a much more consistent manner.

Talifer

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by Aussie-
BULLSHIT

Saw Huma with 196k , Jaws with 220k( both tanks) in 1 week.
They played for their rp's , they get more RA's.

Only reason why stealthers have more rp's is b/c it's fun and they enjoy RvR so they play it more then others.

as for RA's.
Dont see what's gonna change that to RvR now.
Haven't really noticed a big difference

All cool stuff got 30 min timers anyway T_T

The stats speak for themselves, there's always going to be individuals who'll set out to rack up some realm points in a week. These people will get a solid group set up and RvR for hours. There are tanks that do it, there are stealthers that do it. Everyone else makes the best of it when they get to Emain (or where ever), in this situation the AVERAGE stealther has an easier time than the average tank.

I'm saying it's easier to gain rps as an infiltrator* than it is as a Paladin. You're saying I'm talking nonsense

But if I said it's as easy for an infiltrator to gain xp as it is for a paladin you'll call me an idiot.

Talifer

* It's going to change, but up until this point