[QUESTION] Programmable keyboards - What's GOA's stance?

[Aiteal]

Seeing as there's now addons that do multiple things for you with one keypress I can't see how those would be permitted when the G15 and Nostromo aren't when they're doing exactly the same thing.

Yeah
I mean pushing 2 keys in a row is much easier than the "shit did he parry/block/evade or pop x,y,z ability" we all dealt with in DaoC
An observant player who learns opponents attacks and micro-manages his/her abilities will always have the advantage of some guy with an N52

But WaR addons have taken away alot of that imho
Seeing posts on WHA from WE's saying how to set up a mod to look for RB for example is more "easy moding" to my mind than a macro that hits two keys in a sequence.

 

[pikeh]

seconded

hah, I edited so as not to cause an argument but yeh, thats what I meant

 

[Tallen]

Sorry for the delay, I wanted to discuss this with our CS department to make sure I got it right.



Strictly speaking that is correct yes.

Using the G15 keys on the left side of the keyboard as 'extra buttons' by mapping single actions to them is acceptable. But having your character perform several actions with a single keystroke is not.

I hope you can understand I will not go into further detail on if it is detectable or if we will take actions on it.

So, basically, any macro on a G15 is not allowed and you are only allowed to use a G15 key to perform one action, not a string of actions? Also, it doesn't matter if you are playing or AFK?

So, again, the answer is using any macro is not allowed and there is no point having anything other than a basic keyboard as you cannot use any of the functions that make a G15, a G15?

Good luck in enforcing that...

 

[Mr_Grumpy]

They cant thats why you nver see someone here or elsewhere saying i was banned for using a keyboard.

 

[Gear]

Not really difficult to enforce, repeated actions in the same intervals means macroing. All you have to do is scan and flag. Really simple

 

[Soazak]

They cant thats why you nver see someone here or elsewhere saying i was banned for using a keyboard.

You never really saw many(Read: any) people coming here crying about being banned for radar either in the last epic game, but that doesn't mean it wasn't bannable or people did not get banned for it.


A rl friend of mine got banned for using the G11 keyboard to spellcraft in daoc, he was at the computer while doing it also. Crafty buggers at GOA let him get to 1001 then banned him for 3 days and reset his skill

Thats what prompted us to move to Lamorak where we consiquently got 3 accounts in our guild banned for radar. We didn't actually radar it was just the same guy fucking around

 

[Gear]

Crafty buggers at GOA let him get to 1001 then banned him for 3 days and reset his skill

HAHAHAHA. Class!!!!!

 

[Tallen]

HAHAHAHA. Class!!!!!

Agreed, the punishment fits the crime, thats awesome

 

[Tallen]

Not really difficult to enforce, repeated actions in the same intervals means macroing. All you have to do is scan and flag. Really simple

So they scan and analyse every players actions 24/7....because thats the only way they can ever gather enough data to find accounts to focus on and as such be certain (no 24 hour repeat strings of crafting macros here to follow). No-one can report someone for using a kb macro because they cannot know if its a macro or the guy punching keys. I am very tempted to make an alt account to test the theory and see if it ever gets flagged or banned, im betting it won't.

It might be possible to spot, but im betting it'll rarely be enforced, if ever.

 

[Dervish]

So they scan and analyse every players actions 24/7....because thats the only way they can ever gather enough data to find accounts to focus on and as such be certain (no 24 hour repeat strings of crafting macros here to follow). No-one can report someone for using a kb macro because they cannot know if its a macro or the guy punching keys. I am very tempted to make an alt account to test the theory and see if it ever gets flagged or banned, im betting it won't.

It might be possible to spot, but im betting it'll rarely be enforced, if ever.

Well I have to say you are wrong mate. I don't know how they did it but during DAoC GOA were very good at catching macro cheats. I know people who had warnings, 3-day holidays and even perma-bans. Even the use of <random> time gaps in between macro button presses was not enough to escape detection. Another simple thing they did was watch how quickly tradeskills went up. GM goes in game and watches toon shuffle up and down from merchant to forge endlessly etc. Also GM's used to appear in-game and talk to chars who were "crafting in a strangley predictble manner". You don't answer - you're not there. Not sure if this was true but I believe a GM actually moved a merchant to just outside the range of in-game communication but "Mr Crafter" dutifully walked up to the old spot and stood there trying to buy mats for 3 hours or so. There were other methods of course because no single method is foolproof and there are many fools out there as we all know. Instead they used all the tools at their disposal and actually they were pretty good.

I would also warn against alt accounts for testing this stuff. I'm sure no-one would be daft enough to pass any benefits form an alt account to a "real" account because I've seen situations of both accounts banned for that kind of thing. Anyone DAoCers remember the repeatable bugged SI quest in Albion "Lost Stone of Arawn" where you could make a lot of money very quickly? Some numpties passed the cash to their real accounts. It takes all sorts...

 

[caswallawn]

the fact is using the G15 it just registers as normal key strokes and since you would only be using it to link certain skills it wouldnt be doing it all the time so they would need to proove that the few times it was done was a macro and not just pressing the key at the correct intival as the ability becomes available again.

 

[Gear]

Look, it's not that difficult to scan server logs an see if player A is hitting ability X then Y then Z exactly 1.5 secs one after another. No human being can do that. Easy to scan, easy to detect even it's done via a keyboard.

Sure, you can't report someone during pvp combat for that since you can't tell, but someone with the server logs should be able to without any difficulty.

 

[Tallen]

Well I have to say you are wrong mate. I don't know how they did it but during DAoC GOA were very good at catching macro cheats. I know people who had warnings, 3-day holidays and even perma-bans. Even the use of <random> time gaps in between macro button presses was not enough to escape detection. Another simple thing they did was watch how quickly tradeskills went up. GM goes in game and watches toon shuffle up and down from merchant to forge endlessly etc. Also GM's used to appear in-game and talk to chars who were "crafting in a strangley predictble manner". You don't answer - you're not there. Not sure if this was true but I believe a GM actually moved a merchant to just outside the range of in-game communication but "Mr Crafter" dutifully walked up to the old spot and stood there trying to buy mats for 3 hours or so. There were other methods of course because no single method is foolproof and there are many fools out there as we all know. Instead they used all the tools at their disposal and actually they were pretty good.

I would also warn against alt accounts for testing this stuff. I'm sure no-one would be daft enough to pass any benefits form an alt account to a "real" account because I've seen situations of both accounts banned for that kind of thing. Anyone DAoCers remember the repeatable bugged SI quest in Albion "Lost Stone of Arawn" where you could make a lot of money very quickly? Some numpties passed the cash to their real accounts. It takes all sorts...

Sorry, but thats not really pertinent as there is no crafting grind, so it's far more difficult to spot players using macros as it's never going to be as easy to spot as one huge looping macro a GM can sit and watch in-game as the toon sits motionless and unresponsive.

Second point, again it's not that cut and dry. When the housing dupe bug was found i know several players who used it, got caught and had transferred many many plats and salvaged bars to an alt account and it was all still there when they came back. GOA failed to follow the transfer of funds in these instances and several players i know got rediculously rich.

 

[Tallen]

Look, it's not that difficult to scan server logs an see if player A is hitting ability X then Y then Z exactly 1.5 secs one after another. No human being can do that. Easy to scan, easy to detect even it's done via a keyboard.

Sure, you can't report someone during pvp combat for that since you can't tell, but someone with the server logs should be able to without any difficulty.

Yes, i agree, but im betting GOA will not follow up on any of this. They have shown themselves over the last 7 years to be wholly reactive, rarely proactive. As such if a player or community member does not report an action to them, chances are they will never find it or even bother looking. Macroers caught in DAoC were usually reported, the GM's rarely went looking for them.

It's not going to be easy to enforce unless Mythic have some kind of automated system for trapping or flagging-up macro's. Even then it takes someone to interpret that information.

 

[Gear]

Yes, i agree, but im betting GOA will not follow up on any of this. They have shown themselves over the last 7 years to be wholly reactive, rarely proactive. As such if a player or community member does not report an action to them, chances are they will never find it or even bother looking. Macroers caught in DAoC were usually reported, the GM's rarely went looking for them.

It's not going to be easy to enforce unless Mythic have some kind of automated system for trapping or flagging-up macro's. Even then it takes someone to interpret that information.

Well, regarding GOA's past... you're right, let's not get into that and give em the benefit of having changed into that area (yeap, DAOC cheats were all over, if anyone played a stealther then you know how radar was quite common).

The need for flagging a player as I said is quite easy to get automated, even GOA should be able to write (or buy) a script that can do that.

I'm not a IT guru, but I got some friends in the industry. These things are not that difficult to do really.

If you want to know how bad it will get (or maybe already is) go have a look at WHA forums. The reason why I created the topic was because I was browsing the kotbs forums and many people were talking about keyboards like that. WEs and maybe WHs, hell everyone could, take advantage of that.

Welcome one button monkeys

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Well, regarding GOA's past... you're right, let's not get into that and give em the benefit of having changed into that area (yeap, DAOC cheats were all over, if anyone played a stealther then you know how radar was quite common).

The need for flagging a player as I said is quite easy to get automated, even GOA should be able to write (or buy) a script that can do that.

I'm not a IT guru, but I got some friends in the industry. These things are not that difficult to do really.

If you want to know how bad it will get (or maybe already is) go have a look at WHA forums. The reason why I created the topic was because I was browsing the kotbs forums and many people were talking about keyboards like that. WEs and maybe WHs, hell everyone could, take advantage of that.

Welcome one button monkeys

There are many ways to get around automated macro/multibutton detection software (whether it's server-side or client-imbedded). None of which i will discuss for obvious reasons.

Nothing is a substitute for GM observation tbh (until they make an AI at least!).

 

[Gear]

There are many ways to get around automated macro/multibutton detection software (whether it's server-side or client-imbedded). None of which i will discuss for obvious reasons.

Nothing is a substitute for GM observation tbh (until they make an AI at least!).

I fully agree with you but imo if someone wants to cheat, they'll do so, no point denying that. However it's a totally different thing having it served on a plate.

 

[Mr_Grumpy]

Look, it's not that difficult to scan server logs an see if player A is hitting ability X then Y then Z exactly 1.5 secs one after another. No human being can do that. Easy to scan, easy to detect even it's done via a keyboard.

Sure, you can't report someone during pvp combat for that since you can't tell, but someone with the server logs should be able to without any difficulty.

lol.you dont own a g11/15 do you? you have no idea how to actually make the macro then? how you can add random delays ? lol


a keyboard is not a cheat. its just a tool, like most of freddyshouse posters it seems

seriously if youve got nothing worse than people using a G15 keyboard g key macro to do a couple of things like pressing three buttons to buff group etc, then the games sorted and in no trouble and there are no bugs and youve got a good ,happy and full and content life.

 

[Gear]

lol.you dont own a g11/15 do you? you have no idea how to actually make the macro then? how you can add random delays ? lol


a keyboard is not a cheat. its just a tool, like most of freddyshouse posters it seems

seriously if youve got nothing worse than people using a G15 keyboard g key macro to do a couple of things like pressing three buttons to buff group etc, then the games sorted and in no trouble and there are no bugs and youve got a good ,happy and full and content life.

I have a good, happy and content life. I also don't have to "lol" all the time as apparently you feel the need to.

Using one button to perform multiple functions is something considered a third party program. So before you start "lol-ing" next time, practice your reading skills.

 

[Kami]

GMs don't spot bot/cheats, they rely on others to do it for them and report suspected players. I did this for ages in WoW and reported at least two - three players a day when I was PVEing. Player base could use some guidance on how to do so. It's pretty obvious once you know how to spot one even if it's one of the more advanced ones such as those used in WoW with proper pathing, PM replying etc. Doesn't take much to learn, even plenty of you-tube vids to watch if your curious how they work.

 

[Loneliness]

Saw a kotbs in Averlorn during the early hours the other night who was obviously a afkbot casting 3 auras, i didnt report him and im this guy

folks piss poor and cant afford a keyboard with more than 5 keys and have to busk to find the fee for their monthly sub.

if this starts being used with pathing and effects my game though i will make it a priority to report everyone i see.