News Prisoners to get the vote?

[cHodAX]

Thank god the government are fighting this and the opposition seem like they will team up, this can not be allowed to pass into law. People goto prison for a reason and they lose their liberty for a set time as a penalty, allowing them to vote is politically correct nonsense and as far as I am concerned you lose most of your 'human rights' when you are convicted of a crime anyway.

BBC News - Jack Straw and David Davis bid to block prisoner votes

The video halfway down, the bloke who brought the case to court was formerly commited of manslaughter and him laughing after Andrew Neill explained to the audience what crime he commited was more than a bit sinister.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, not to get too much into it, but i don't really see a harm in giving a vote to prisoners.

Sure there's the side that "You do the crime, you lose rights.", but when we're talking about short sentence criminals(say six months to a year or two), those votes count towards the time after they are free.

What if, example, just before voting on a major issue of some form(health for example), you get a month of jail time? Would it be fair to kill your vote on a major issue due to that?

Also, your family outside is still effected by these votes.

Perhaps the best solution would be to cut off votes from a certain sentence length.

Got into it a bit more then i thought initially, but i dunno, i doubt it would change the world one way or other so i'm kind of indifferent on this.

 

[ECA]

I saw the original interview live and you can see when they don't accept his argument he turns back to being a nasty vile piece of shit.

Frankly, I think giving prisoners the vote protects against abuse of power by the state so I'm half on the fence about it.

 

[Moriath]

The Euro human rights act is all pervasive and used for things that i really disagree with .. this is one of them.

You do crime , you get caught, you lose your civil rights and liberty. IMO

Its like criminals suing people that they have burgled cause they hurt themselves in their property or the owners defending themselves.

Should get rid of the Human rights act and replace it with a UK version that deals with it.

 

[cHodAX]

I saw the original interview live and you can see when they don't accept his argument he turns back to being a nasty vile piece of shit.

Frankly, I think giving prisoners the vote protects against abuse of power by the state so I'm half on the fence about it.

Understood and I can see why you are undecided but that bloke really doesn't help sell it to you does he? He seems more interested in acting the big man and getting a payoff from the courts than actually doing something worthwhile.

 

[Raven]

Yeah coming from a guy who shows no remorse for his crime (That of beating a women to death) he isn't doing the cause any favours. Hopefully a non starter.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just a question, but are there other arguments against this besides "Well they norty people!"?

Hardly seems like a reasoning in a somewhat evolved species

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Just a question, but are there other arguments against this besides "Well they norty people!"?

Hardly seems like a reasoning in a somewhat evolved species

A better question would be to ask how someone can fail to grasp this.

 

[ford prefect]

If you are going to have a free and open poll, then you need to give prisoners the option to vote. It protects against an abuse of power, but it also stops a precedent for exclusion of specific groups. It is right to do so. From a legal standpoint, refusing prisoners the opportunity to vote is a breach of European Law. If we continue to deny them the vote it would inevitably lead to large cash settlements, which I suspect would annoy people much more.

 

[cHodAX]

A better question would be to ask how someone can fail to grasp this.

+1

 

[old.Tohtori]

A better question would be to ask how someone can fail to grasp this.

You mean, grasp that it's the only reason?

If it is the only reason, fine, i was merely asking if there were any.

Unless you meant something else

 

[ford prefect]

I suppose there are those who would also argue that voting is not a civil right, but a civil duty and that prisoners are imporisoned to pay for their crimes and to loose their liberty, not to loose their identity as citizens.

 

[Zenith.UK]

Just a question, but are there other arguments against this besides "Well they norty people!"?

Hardly seems like a reasoning in a somewhat evolved species

Don't try the "civilised" or "evolved" society line.
Police have a power granted to them by the Judicicary to temporarily remove someone's freedom by arresting them. A person who commits a criminal act is arrested, put on trial, found guilty and given a custodial sentence. The Human Rights Act doesn't come into it. A court is the ONLY power allowed to remove someone of their right to freedom on a long term basis.

By being convicted of a crime and sentenced to jail, you are removed from society for a specified period of time. Not being able to vote is part and parcel of having your freedoms curtailed. A criminal has been removed from Society, and therefore has no say in Society's democratic process while incarcerated.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Zenith, you could just say "Nope"

Still willing to listen if there's any other arguments for the no side, but frmm a fence POV, seems there's more points raised on the yes side here.

 

[Cerb]

OK to play along with finding another argument for you here, even if it's not necessarily what I believe..... I'm sure if you were look the statistics say that people in prison tend to have a lower IQ. Now not getting into why that is or how we need to change that, it could be argued that their input is less valuable because of it?

Just a thought.

 

[Lakih]

Just to summarise the thread so far:

Reasons prisoners should be allowed to vote:
Breach of european law (civil rights?)

Reasons prisoners should not be allowed to vote:
Do not want!
people in prisons are less intelligent then other people (unconfirmed fact)

wtf?

 

[Cerb]

BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | Low IQ inmates a 'hidden problem'

 

[Thorwyn]

So what does the average IQ have to do with the right to vote? Should less intelligent people not be allowed to vote at all? You´re walking on thin ice there.

Anyways, in Germany, you keep your right to vote as a prisoner, unless you´re in jail for high treason (anything that has something to do with politics/diplomacy). I can´t see a reason why prisoners should not vote.
Then again, it´s not really a big issue, there are more important problems out there.

 

[Cerb]

Ok if you go back to my original post you will see that I only put this point forward as an example of another argument on the o side. I even said I don't agree with it.

 

[Angrist]

Ok if you go back to my original post you will see that I only put this point forward as an example of another argument on the o side. I even said I don't agree with it.

The point is still valid though... Hard to enforce rules like that without people on the outside being subject to the same rules.

Ford Prefect is spot on, Voting is a civil duty not a right.

 

[Lamp]

Ppl have the choice to vote or not. A civic responsibility, sure, not a duty.

 

[Cerb]

The point is still valid though... Hard to enforce rules like that without people on the outside being subject to the same rules.

True. I probably didn't really think it trough. Just trying to play devils advocate.

 

[Angrist]

Ppl have the choice to vote or not. A civic responsibility, sure, not a duty.

Call it responsibility or duty if people doesn't vote there's no basis for democracy.

I guess you could argue that part of rehabilitating convicts is to teach them to be responsible citizens and therefore must act responsible in all facets of daily life, voting included.

 

[old.Tohtori]

A point for the no side; politicians could use it to grab votes via "better prison" promises.

A point for the yes side; prisons are meant(apart from punishing) to rehabilitate to society and voting is part of society.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I suppose there are those who would also argue that voting is not a civil right, but a civil duty and that prisoners are imporisoned to pay for their crimes and to loose their liberty, not to loose their identity as citizens.

Indeed, hence why you still get paid work in prisons, educational activities, fitness activities, religious considerations etc.

The prison population is small compared to the normal population. The voting prison population is even smaller. There's no way they could ever impact on an election. People getting up in arms about this don't really understand the purpose of prison.

 

[Thorwyn]

A point for the no side; politicians could use it to grab votes via "better prison" promises.

If politicians would do that, they would see a huge backlash from all the voters who are not in prison.

 

[Angrist]

A point for the no side; politicians could use it to grab votes via "better prison" promises.
to society and voting is part of society.

How is that different from politicians promising tax reductions for persons with a certain income or more money for students.

They are already catering to certain segments of society.

 

[Punishment]

The Euro human rights act is all pervasive and used for things that i really disagree with .. this is one of them.

You do crime , you get caught, you lose your civil rights and liberty. IMO

Its like criminals suing people that they have burgled cause they hurt themselves in their property or the owners defending themselves.

Should get rid of the Human rights act and replace it with a UK version that deals with it.

Thats not how Human rights laws see things though

Put simply say you murder someone who has 40-50 years left to live, then you will most likely serve under half that even though it will be labelled as a "Life sentence" , once someone dies their rights are pretty much ignored and the killers are given priority as the victim is dead and the killer lives

 

[cHodAX]

If you are going to have a free and open poll, then you need to give prisoners the option to vote. It protects against an abuse of power, but it also stops a precedent for exclusion of specific groups. It is right to do so. From a legal standpoint, refusing prisoners the opportunity to vote is a breach of European Law. If we continue to deny them the vote it would inevitably lead to large cash settlements, which I suspect would annoy people much more.

We have never allowed prisoners to vote, there has not been an abuse of power because of it and therefore no precedent exists. Why do we have to give prisoners a privledge because an EU quango tells us we have to? As a sovreign nation we have every right to tell them to go fuck themselves.

 

[old.Tohtori]

How is that different from politicians promising tax reductions for persons with a certain income or more money for students.

They are already catering to certain segments of society.

True, true.

Just catering to the needs of the ney side as well.

*adjusts fence*

Also Thorwyn, good point, it would be risky at best and seeing as the people don't like prisoners voting that much to start with...