Primary defensive classes overlooked by mythic you think??

[Happlo]

The one unfair problem i can see is that Mythic have created Bodyguard to make it easier to implement caster's into groups, but have totally disragarded the defensive tank spec. What i mean by this is that (using Hibernian tanks as an example here) a full shield hero would have been the best defensive char in hib for a group with access to MoB and large shields. As you know this was better for guarding more people, more reliably (with MoB) but to my mind the focus has now been taken away from who can defend your group members the best, and moved to who has the best "personnal" defence.

So again using Hib as an example here, you can forget the hero now as being the best class for this job, cause a full shield BM with evade 3 + Red Buffs + Dodger 3 + 2ndary raising Dex stat + IP will have the best "personnal" defence in Hib, hitting the 50% evade rate at 360* aswell as blocking almost as much as a hero could. The only difference is he has slightly worse armour (although with the amount of slash user's soon with Battler RF will prob fair better than scale) and doesnt get moose (30 min timer whoopie!! ). BMs also get immunity to all crits every 7 mins with TW!! So imagine a merc specing like this with DT up most fights and chain armour (evade 2 i know, but dodger 4 and you can prolly get 50% cap)

Anyhoo, i will wait and see what bodyguard is like, it will certainly open up caster play in RvR, although i hope not to an overpowered extent, but i just wish Mythic maybe made Battlemaster as a Heavy Tank only ML (hero, warrior, arms) like Spymaster is for assasins only. That would have at least kept it fair as far as those classes being the key defensive ones

P.s - Oh, and as you can see, i am a BM (duel wielder too) so this is just my musings. I would rather have a balanced game than the possability of me being a FotM Shield BM, to the detrement of shield hero's

 

[Heffer]

ye bodyguard is a bit gay but its only constant intercept.... the tank gets fuckign owned who is bodyguarding....however im a pally so i got no prob group needs end either way

 

[Vindicator]

a BM could spec in shield ............. but thats there choice really.

You state that they should have kept battlemaster for heavy tanks only, well its not the same for all the realms remember. The most defensive tank in alb is the paladin, Not the Armsman. He is offensive with hybrid spec possibly.

So this would mean that albs best guarder cant use this ML that makes his job easier. While leaving hib and mid with there still there best guarder role.

The same can be said for Mercenaries thou, Although you may not think it but A saracen merc with 50 shield would be the best 'heavy' tank blocker in alb. A Scout is the only 1 that would beat him on shear dex stats while the merc would win with the ability to block many targets. You have to remember that when the /assist train turns on you, a small shield just wont do .

So I see what your saying but you have to think about it from multiple perspectives really.

Anyway, if you made Battlemaster for only hero/arms/warrior then mythic would have to think up more MA's and there lazy enough as it is with the same zone for all 3 realms

 

[Tuorin]

P.s - Oh, and as you can see, i am a BM (duel wielder too) so this is just my musings. I would rather have a balanced game than the possability of me being a FotM Shield BM, to the detrement of shield hero's

BM could be a viable BG, however really can't see them outdoing hero's.
BM - As you mentioned Happ, BM have the additional evade and dodger etc, plus TW with crit immunity. Sadly, they can only spec medium shield, which means any more than 2 attackers and one's hitting free. Also, no expert on TOA but Bodyguard gives a 20% penalty to evade and parry. With parry not having guard and working as it should still.

BM - Med Shield, Evade 3 ,TW Crit immunity every 7 mins, Dodger 2-5 Advantages Higher Evade, TW immunity, parry depends on spec, but generally around same parry as hero if 50 in 2 skills.
Disadvantages 19% abs armour, 38% minimum worse off to crush (hihi crush mercs) no real +plus vs slash even though in theory its 9% better than scale, in reality opponents hit reinf more than scale. Can only block 2 attackers with medium shield, so despite crit immunity, 3rd man on train is bypassing shield completely. This negates TW perhaps in its entirety. No Mastery of Blocking. That's a big loss.

So for a hero his +'s are

Large shield, scale, better all round armour (should know had reinf for ages and it blows), mastery of blocking, access to AP and AOF as well as IP. Albeit suggestion AP doesn't work with bodyguard, but again yet to see it. Can't see it cancelling if you fire AP3/AOF before you select bodyguard, but dunno. Generally higher con and hp and speccing AP has a prerequisite of aug con 3. Higher AF. Luri hero has about same dex as Celt BM, Luri's can't be BM. 20% drop to evade with bodyguard negates 6.66 levels of dodger in effect. No loss to shield spec when bodyguarding. Can't really count moose as a plus, rarely fire it and 30 timer RA, so most of the time down. Same with IP for both, however can see IP making a comeback to group RVR with bodyguard In effect i suppose moose+IP once every 30 mins means Hibs have teh uberbodyguard as moose works nice with IP.

Negatives are definitely evade, can't compare to BM at all in that regard. Probably less dex, but marginal, 325-335 dex on my Celt with mota(x) buffs, as opposed to what on BM? 355?


Mob is a big plus. BM max shield is 50+20, Hero 50+20 plus Mob5.

I would say shield Bm viable in certain circumstances. No idea re Albs or Mids, but would be nice to see more armsmen in full group fights.

 

[Zaffa]

ye bodyguard is a bit gay but its only constant intercept.... the tank gets fuckign owned who is bodyguarding....however im a pally so i got no prob group needs end either way

No he dont, its not constant intercept, u cant melee an bodyguarded char till the bodyguarder is dead, if that is a shield hero with another shield hero guarding him its gonna take a while to kill him, all while chanters ect cant be interupted by melee

 

[Elendar]

a bm at present = mush, a bm with -20% defence.... bye bye

 

[Gahn]

All true but ...

BM could be a viable BG, however really can't see them outdoing hero's.
BM - As you mentioned Happ, BM have the additional evade and dodger etc, plus TW with crit immunity. Sadly, they can only spec medium shield, which means any more than 2 attackers and one's hitting free. Also, no expert on TOA but Bodyguard gives a 20% penalty to evade and parry. With parry not having guard and working as it should still.

BM - Med Shield, Evade 3 ,TW Crit immunity every 7 mins, Dodger 2-5 Advantages Higher Evade, TW immunity, parry depends on spec, but generally around same parry as hero if 50 in 2 skills.
Disadvantages 19% abs armour, 38% minimum worse off to crush (hihi crush mercs) no real +plus vs slash even though in theory its 9% better than scale, in reality opponents hit reinf more than scale. Can only block 2 attackers with medium shield, so despite crit immunity, 3rd man on train is bypassing shield completely. This negates TW perhaps in its entirety. No Mastery of Blocking. That's a big loss.

So for a hero his +'s are

Large shield, scale, better all round armour (should know had reinf for ages and it blows), mastery of blocking, access to AP and AOF as well as IP. Albeit suggestion AP doesn't work with bodyguard, but again yet to see it. Can't see it cancelling if you fire AP3/AOF before you select bodyguard, but dunno. Generally higher con and hp and speccing AP has a prerequisite of aug con 3. Higher AF. Luri hero has about same dex as Celt BM, Luri's can't be BM. 20% drop to evade with bodyguard negates 6.66 levels of dodger in effect. No loss to shield spec when bodyguarding. Can't really count moose as a plus, rarely fire it and 30 timer RA, so most of the time down. Same with IP for both, however can see IP making a comeback to group RVR with bodyguard In effect i suppose moose+IP once every 30 mins means Hibs have teh uberbodyguard as moose works nice with IP.

Negatives are definitely evade, can't compare to BM at all in that regard. Probably less dex, but marginal, 325-335 dex on my Celt with mota(x) buffs, as opposed to what on BM? 355?


Mob is a big plus. BM max shield is 50+20, Hero 50+20 plus Mob5.

I would say shield Bm viable in certain circumstances. No idea re Albs or Mids, but would be nice to see more armsmen in full group fights.

Major true inside your statement m8 but:
I wont go shield anyway as a BM battlemaster cause dual wielders gives u the painful 50% reduction on Blocking chance (on top on not having access to MoB as u already stated).
Said so i'd expect instead more Parry BM as Bodyguarder AND a shield hero guarding em; checking Evade (high chance tho reduced 20%), Parry (high chance let's say 30 more parry + 11 + 4 assuming an rr5), guard from a 50 Shield + MoB 5. This can be an awful combo tbh for enemies MA trains making BM almost unhittable on paper. This not taking in count debuffs etc obv ...

 

[Lakih]

Why not give Bodyguard to hybrids only (Champ, Thane, Pally)? It would give more classes a role in RvR, it would turn down the effects of bodyguard for every realm except Albion (due to pally already got excelent defence).

The only downside i can see with this is that Ablion gets alittle better then the other two realms at bodyguarding, but im not sure if its that much anyway...

 

[Saggy]

Bodyguard will totally remove tanks ability to deal damage. Two bodyguards will make the group almost melee immune or can someone actually show me a way to kill these groups with tank group:

Hibernia
Druid
Druid
Bard
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
3x nuker

Albion
Cleric
Cleric
Sorc
Minstrel
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
2x nuker

Midgard
Healer
Healer
Healer
Shammy
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
2xNuker

Tank group would be destroyed before they even find enemy to attack after all that bodyguard swapping. I can sense lots and lots of boring RvR :/

 

[chretien]

Sounds like an excellent reason to start including scouts/rangers/hunters in groups to me....

 

[Linnet]

Sounds like an excellent reason to start including scouts/rangers/hunters in groups to me....

And wait till you see infiltrators bodyguarding from stealth!

 

[Gahn]

I can be wrong but ...

And wait till you see infiltrators bodyguarding from stealth!

I can be wrong but u can't bodyguard while stealthed (read something about it on VN but i don't put my hand on fire about it obv ..).
And yes Bodyguard is intended imo to open up RvR to ranged chars and give back some fun on playing healers class.
And after all real war should be tanks against tanks, support supporting tanks

 

[Lakih]

Tank group would be destroyed before they even find enemy to attack after all that bodyguard swapping. I can sense lots and lots of boring RvR :/

Roll a caster
Its not rocket-science

 

[Saggy]

Roll a caster
Its not rocket-science

Already got fairly many casters but point being fights between caster groups are usually boring as hell. Even trolls will realise that there is no future in tank group. Its not rocket-science

 

[XeffoInfil]

And wait till you see infiltrators bodyguarding from stealth!

Wait til you see the stealth thing!!!!!!!! bd pop, runey pop, sm pop war pop out of stealth AHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Maleg]

Already got fairly many casters but point being fights between caster groups are usually boring as hell. Even trolls will realise that there is no future in tank group. Its not rocket-science

As a Druid I found the domination of RvR by tank groups exteremly dull, frustrating and almost the killer of the game for me - I guess it's all a matter of perspective. At least casters of Mid / Alb can start playing in RvR again to some extent (Hib mage group was always fairly viable due to group purge and Mana chanters / elds).

 

[Saggy]

As a Druid I found the domination of RvR by tank groups exteremly dull, frustrating and almost the killer of the game for me - I guess it's all a matter of perspective. At least casters of Mid / Alb can start playing in RvR again to some extent (Hib mage group was always fairly viable due to group purge and Mana chanters / elds).

In my opinion and in the eyes of Arms/Wizzie/Sorc/Cleric/Shammy/SM/Warrior RvR was almost perfectly balanced before ToA. The only problem was that Mid/Alb casters were trying to fit themselves in tank groups instead of making a balanced caster group. Its not like a lonely Det-tank was a threat, Det-tanks were only good when they had other Det-tank(s) around them. Same goes for Fire Wizzie for example - Lonely Fire Wizzie is nothing but once you get another Fire Wizzie and Body Sorc for debuffing you are laughing.

The reason why Det-groups are common is that its whole different game compared to caster groups - Being mezzed/rooted/stunned and not being able to do anything is a frustrating feeling and Det reduced that pain. But yes, because of that the majority of players prefered tank group over a caster group and RvR was pretty dull but it never ever made balanced caster groups gimped, they were still perfectly viable in all 3 realms.

In the end Bodyguard will remain as a myth tanks are talking about in pubs - Since there wont be any tank groups around there wont be any need for Bodyguards. Of course I could be wrong and I wish I'm.

 

[Dook]

In my opinion and in the eyes of Arms/Wizzie/Sorc/Cleric/Shammy/SM/Warrior RvR was almost perfectly balanced before ToA. The only problem was that Mid/Alb casters were trying to fit themselves in tank groups instead of making a balanced caster group. Its not like a lonely Det-tank was a threat, Det-tanks were only good when they had other Det-tank(s) around them. Same goes for Fire Wizzie for example - Lonely Fire Wizzie is nothing but once you get another Fire Wizzie and Body Sorc for debuffing you are laughing.

No offense but, you're talking out of your ass. :>

Find me a Caster who was happy with the situation in RvR prior to ToA and I'll show you a retard. Det tanks aren't effected by the interrupt bug, hardcore resists and random bugs that stay ingame for months on end such as ASD and make playing vs. /assist trains impossible.

P.S Try keeping a debuffer alive after the /ma discovers who he is.

 

[Saggy]

Find me a Caster who was happy with the situation in RvR prior to ToA and I'll show you a retard.

Guess I'm a retard then. Yes, most casters were unhappy but the main reason for it is that they didn't even try to form a balanced group around their class.

Det tanks aren't effected by the interrupt bug, hardcore resists and random bugs that stay ingame for months on end such as ASD and make playing vs. /assist trains impossible.

Yes, ASD was horrible but I was talking about the patch before ToA. There is debuffs for resists. Oh, and Det-tanks are suffering from strafing. Only real problem casters had is the interupt-code really which is horrible .

P.S Try keeping a debuffer alive after the /ma discovers who he is.

I'm playing Sorc (debuffer )who is usually target #1. PBAE-box was quite safe place to be when I had assist train on me not to forget sexeh blocking from S/S tank.

I'm not trying to say caster groups were "uber", just saying they were perfectly viable when balanced and well played. I have played both Alb and Mid caster groups and fought against Hib caster groups so I had some idea of what they are capable of. For both groups, in my opinion, biggest threat was Hib caster group. Besides, when Eclipse lost fights against Alb tank group it used to be because of good Theur and Sorc, not the tanks? After NP Eclipse has been the hardest enemy to fight against with for my guild, dont think we have won once when running without Theurgist.

Find me a player who believes the balance issues between tanks and casters will be better in ToA and I'll show you a retard (yet haven't seen how ToA will affect on RvR but looks horrible on paper so yes, I could be talking out of my arse)

 

[Brennik]

Bodyguard will totally remove tanks ability to deal damage. Two bodyguards will make the group almost melee immune or can someone actually show me a way to kill these groups with tank group:
/

Bingo. No more melee-assist-train for teh wynz.

Then again, you'll have some pretty interesting fights between all the hybrid groups (like the ones you listed)