Popey calls us Nazis

[kamorrista]

just for sure, condoms can help to avoid AIDS transmission.

 

[Chronictank]

just for sure, condoms can help to avoid AIDS transmission.

stop them f****ng like bunnies works a hell of alot better to be fair so you can't fault its logic, idealist? yes wrong? certainly not

if they were more monogamous the problem would solve itself

 

[R2D3]

Had a little google:

AidsinAfrica.net - HIV AIDS Epidemic Map

Map - Religion in Africa

Anyone else notice a correlation between religion types and aids levels? (and think South Africa is mainly Protestant being former British and Dutch colony so doubt they give a crap what the Pope thinks either).

So by some of the arguments above it must be the tribal religions that are responsible for aids.

In fact just had a look and the catholic parts of africa correspond to low HIV levels.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

 

[nath]

Had a little google:

AidsinAfrica.net - HIV AIDS Epidemic Map

Map - Religion in Africa

Anyone else notice a correlation between religion types and aids levels? (and think South Africa is mainly Protestant being former British and Dutch colony so doubt they give a crap what the Pope thinks either).

So by some of the arguments above it must be the tribal religions that are responsible for aids.

In fact just had a look and the catholic parts of africa correspond to low HIV levels.....

I think the tribal religions do have something to answer for. As I understand, there are witchdoctors out there saying that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. That's clearly not helping.

Where are you seing the Catholic parts, from your links all I can see is Christian.

Additionally, the pope isn't just saying that condoms aren't the answer - he's said they can aggravate the problem.

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | guardian.co.uk

Spreading misinformation like that to poorly educated people who are at very high risks of getting AIDS is so beyond irresponsible as to be pretty much evil.

 

[kamorrista]

stop them f****ng like bunnies works a hell of alot better to be fair so you can't fault its logic, idealist? yes wrong? certainly not

if they were more monogamous the problem would solve itself

I didn't say it SOLVES the problem, just said it helps vs AIDS, ofc other measures has to be taken!

 

[kamorrista]

I think the tribal religions do have something to answer for. As I understand, there are witchdoctors out there saying that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. That's clearly not helping.

Where are you seing the Catholic parts, from your links all I can see is Christian.

Additionally, the pope isn't just saying that condoms aren't the answer - he's said they can aggravate the problem.

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | guardian.co.uk

Spreading misinformation like that to poorly educated people who are at very high risks of getting AIDS is so beyond irresponsible as to be pretty much evil.

they said it can get worse with condoms yep, i don't think having condoms will make them sexual adicts, they already do sex a lot, can't imagine it can be worse with condoms again.

 

[R2D3]

I think the tribal religions do have something to answer for. As I understand, there are witchdoctors out there saying that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. That's clearly not helping.

Where are you seing the Catholic parts, from your links all I can see is Christian.

Additionally, the pope isn't just saying that condoms aren't the answer - he's said they can aggravate the problem.

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse | World news | guardian.co.uk

Spreading misinformation like that to poorly educated people who are at very high risks of getting AIDS is so beyond irresponsible as to be pretty much evil.

Sorry posted bit on Catholic representation in Africa after you had responded

Catholic Church by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (its at the very bottom or if the link on the right works) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_Catholics.png

On the article, well Guardian .... but that sort of raises again the question of why someone sleeping with prostitutes or anybody else in sight is suddenly going to get all holy when it comes to condoms? And could make it worse if they think "ha I have a condom, it will protect me 100% from AIDs even though the odds are this person has it".

 

[nath]

On the article, well Guardian .... but that sort of raises again the question of why someone sleeping with prostitutes or anybody else in sight is suddenly going to get all holy when it comes to condoms? And could make it worse if they think "ha I have a condom, it will protect me 100% from AIDs even though the odds are this person has it".

That's clutching at straws. Condoms are 80% effective against HIV according to Ben Goldacre's column:

The pope and Aids – Bad Science

They're clearly more effective at preventing transmission of HIV than, well, not using a condom. The pope has said that they can aggravate the problem which is misinformation based on bullshit religious belief and *not* scientific reason. The pope is in a position of authority and so he's massively abusing that position by spreading dangerous lies.

We can um and ah about the mindset of people that pay attention to him or not, or only listen to half of what he does but that's, to a certain extent, irrelevant. He's spouting dangerous lies and HIV is spreading in Africa like wildfire. He's not the outright cause of the problem but he's not helping things and he should be fucking ashamed.

 

[R2D3]

That's clutching at straws. Condoms are 80% effective against HIV according to Ben Goldacre's column:

The pope and Aids – Bad Science

They're clearly more effective at preventing transmission of HIV than, well, not using a condom. The pope has said that they can aggravate the problem which is misinformation based on bullshit religious belief and *not* scientific reason. The pope is in a position of authority and so he's massively abusing that position by spreading dangerous lies.

We can um and ah about the mindset of people that pay attention to him or not, or only listen to half of what he does but that's, to a certain extent, irrelevant. He's spouting dangerous lies and HIV is spreading in Africa like wildfire. He's not the outright cause of the problem but he's not helping things and he should be fucking ashamed.

Whoops bit of a flaw then in your arguement as you have just said they are 20% ineffective? Which would then give validity to the arguement that presenting condoms as the answer in a country where aids is endemic could be more dangerous as you will have fuckwits thinking they are safe if they sleep with a prostitute and use a condom when in some parts of Africa 100% (or as near as dammit) of them are HIV. Also as per the maps of Africa AIDs is nothing like as high in parts of Africa with lots of Catholics and there is no scientific evidence that Catholics are sleeping around in these areas, but refusing to use a condom due to religion as in these areas they arent even catholic...

People blaming it on the pope rather than addressing the real issues should be ashamed as they are helping this tragedy to continue, by rather than tackling the stupidy of people who think no problem get aids rape a virgin etc they just go "its the pope's fault".

Anyway gotta go to work, so have a lovely evening

 

[nath]

Whoops bit of a flaw then in your arguement as you have just said they are 20% ineffective? Which would then give validity to the arguement that presenting condoms as the answer in a country where aids is endemic could be more dangerous as you will have fuckwits thinking they are safe if they sleep with a prostitute and use a condom when in some parts of Africa 100% (or as near as dammit) of them are HIV. Also as per the maps of Africa AIDs is nothing like as high in parts of Africa with lots of Catholics and there is no scientific evidence that Catholics are sleeping around in these areas, but refusing to use a condom due to religion as in these areas they arent even catholic...

People blaming it on the pope rather than addressing the real issues should be ashamed as they are helping this tragedy to continue, by rather than tackling the stupidy of people who think no problem get aids rape a virgin etc they just go "its the pope's fault".

Anyway gotta go to work, so have a lovely evening

What is it with people all over the place assuming that people only have enough righteous indignation for one person/organisation/religion/whatever. It's such a common straw-man argument to suggest that because there are other problems we should ignore this one. Scouse put it best - "I'm not a fan of rape, but does that mean I should be OK with burglary?".

The fact of the matter is, Condoms do not aggravate the problem - they *dramatically* decrease the likelihood of catching HIV. To use your example, if that guy goes to a prostitute and thinks "hmm, shall I use condoms or not", and the pope is saying "don't use them, they aggravate the problem" and he doesn't. Bam, AIDS. Probably. You're assuming the choice for this guy is "use a condom and fuck who I want" or "don't use a condom and don't fuck anyone except my wife", and that's a big assumption.

Individual scenarios are pretty useless here. The fact is that using a condom is the safest way to have penetrative sex and saying otherwise is a heinous and dangerous lie. A witchdoctor saying that sex with a virgin child cures the disease is a *more* heinous lie but then I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. An alarming number of people here seem to disagree that the pope is talking bollocks though, hence the discussion.

Truth be told, I don't know how much of an affect the popes position has on the HIV situation in Africa. I don't know that his advice is taken by *only* Catholics, an assumption that several people have made. If the pope came out and said "cut off your balls and it'll cure your AIDS" and only 1% of those with AIDS in Africa did it, I'd *still* be calling it out as a bullshit lie. More research needs to be done in to how much of an affect his comments have but that doesn't stop them from being (starting to get repetitive here) a bullshit lie.


edit: One of the things I particularly dislike about the pope-defenders position is that it's one of treating people like children. Give them half truths to try and lead them down the correct path, and then be shocked when human nature takes over. The pope is obfuscating issue by spreading his bullshit. We need to spread scientific fact, condoms are *very* effective at preventing AIDS. End of story.

 

[kamorrista]

agree about condoms decrease AIDS infection chance critically, science fact.

 

[Lamp]

The Pope doesn't live in the real world & is out of touch with the modern world. He's responsible for the entire Catholic religion as is supposed to be the priest of Jesus Christ on earth, so I don't blame him for his backwards & introvert aspect on modern life, anymore than I blame a baby for soiling itself

 

[nath]

The Pope doesn't live in the real world & is out of touch with the modern world. He's responsible for the entire Catholic religion as is supposed to be the priest of Jesus Christ on earth, so I don't blame him for his backwards & introvert aspect on modern life, anymore than I blame a baby for soiling itself

Problem is that people rarely open up babies nappies and refer to the contents as God's wisdom.

 

[Scouse]

they said it can get worse with condoms yep, i don't think having condoms will make them sexual adicts, they already do sex a lot,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Fucking Lol! Classic

I guess there's a reason I don't jump into Off-Topic a lot. I may try it on with the gf tho: "fancy do sex?"



Oh wow!

Whoops bit of a flaw then in your arguement as you have just said they are 20% ineffective?

:eek2:

Just wow.

R2D3, if ducking when someone was shooting at you saved your life 80% of the time, would you not bother because 20% of the time you'd still get hit?

 

[Wij]

On the article, well Guardian .... but that sort of raises again the question of why someone sleeping with prostitutes or anybody else in sight is suddenly going to get all holy when it comes to condoms?

They don't have to be getting all holy when the misinformation is that condoms don't protect against AIDS. That is presented as fact not as moral imperitive. You can't equivocate all the time between what is presented as fact and what is presented as 'the right thing.' I could pick up many more examples of bad logic but I can't be arsed. The Pope is a cnut and Catholicism is wrong factually and morally. The end.

 

[Raven]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Fucking Lol! Classic

I guess there's a reason I don't jump into Off-Topic a lot. I may try it on with the gf tho: "fancy do sex?"

To be fair, his native tongue is Spanish so don't be such a pedant

 

[Raven]

On the article, well Guardian .... but that sort of raises again the question of why someone sleeping with prostitutes or anybody else in sight is suddenly going to get all holy when it comes to condoms?

For the simple reason it is not just Catholics they are pushing this misinformation on.

 

[Appollo]

Buy them more TV's...

 

[Turamber]

normal people who have not been brainwashed from birth see no problem with having more than one sexual partner, its perfectly natural.

What is considered "normal" changes according to the time you live in and the society where you live. It maybe "normal" now in the UK but it certainly wasn't considered so pre-World War I for example, although of course there were individuals who were not celibate before marriage.

Talking of "brainwashing" you sound very much like one of those militant atheists the Pope was refering to the other day. The kind that were so 'non-militant' that they paid for billboards and lined his route holding banners proclaiming that there is no God. In many respects atheism is a religion for those people, and they are the worst kind of religious people -- the fanatics.

 

[nath]

Talking of "brainwashing" you sound very much like one of those militant atheists the Pope was refering to the other day. The kind that were so 'non-militant' that they paid for billboards and lined his route holding banners proclaiming that there is no God. In many respects atheism is a religion for those people, and they are the worst kind of religious people -- the fanatics.

Peaceful protest is the sign of a fanatic now? Also, would you have a problem with people protesting the visit of someone else with radically dangerous views such as the President of Iran and his belief that the holocaust never happened? If people protested his visit, would that also be fanaticism?

Is it perhaps simply fanaticism because you don't agree with their point? Also, much though I hate to cast doubt on your character but - are you making up the point about them holding banners proclaim there's no God? My take of the protests is that they were mostly secular and humanist in nature, not specifically atheist at all.

edit. oh and my personal fav - several sightings of "Down with this sort of thing!".

You're getting aggressive, offended and making silly points Turamber. Chill out and perhaps try and come back a bit more rational.

 

[R2D3]

For the simple reason it is not just Catholics they are pushing this misinformation on.

Except reading the guardian article at no point is he quoted as saying that condoms didnt have an effect on preventing HIV transmission if you were going to have sex with someone who was HIV positive, he actually said that the only full proof method of defeating the epidemic was to change the current practices.

Using the ducking bullets anology, ok ducking may help 80% of the time, but maybe a better option would be to stop shouting "hey dickhead your mum is a whore and you couldnt hit a barn door at ten paces"? If a condom was 99.99999999999999 etc % effective against catching HIV I still wouldnt take the risk if the odds were that the person was HIV+.

And Im not a Catholic and freely admit that a lot of what they say is BS, but it is also BS to try to claim that the Catholic message on condoms is responsible for the aids problem in Africa when it simply isnt. It would also be funny if it wasnt so sad how often people conveniently forget to quote the message properly... condoms are wrong and so is sex outside of marriage. The problem in Africa is poverty, lack of education, cultural norms about asking a partner to wear a condom is showing lack of trust, that real men dont wear condoms and the belief that some retard in a headress can cure HIV.

From this board can see what they were on about with the aggressive secularism though....

 

[R2D3]

What is considered "normal" changes according to the time you live in and the society where you live. It maybe "normal" now in the UK but it certainly wasn't considered so pre-World War I for example, although of course there were individuals who were not celibate before marriage.

It is also natural and normal for adults to be shagging children as soon as there was grass on the pitch (even before if you look at Bonobo monkeys). Thankfully society says nope that isnt right even if it is natural.

 

[Raven]

What is considered "normal" changes according to the time you live in and the society where you live. It maybe "normal" now in the UK but it certainly wasn't considered so pre-World War I for example, although of course there were individuals who were not celibate before marriage.

Talking of "brainwashing" you sound very much like one of those militant atheists the Pope was refering to the other day. The kind that were so 'non-militant' that they paid for billboards and lined his route holding banners proclaiming that there is no God. In many respects atheism is a religion for those people, and they are the worst kind of religious people -- the fanatics.

Brainwashed, as in believing in something that is quite clearly utter rubbish. I couldn't actually care less if people want to waste their time on religion, I do care when that religion causes harm to people, such as Catholic misinformation.

 

[R2D3]

Catholic misinformation.

Yep all misinformation is wrong, argument should be based on actual fact, rather than bigotted opinion <cough> <cough>

 

[Raven]

Except reading the guardian

I stopped reading here. The guardian, that bastion of unbiased journalism, next you will be linking to channel 4.

 

[nath]

And Im not a Catholic and freely admit that a lot of what they say is BS, but it is also BS to try to claim that the Catholic message on condoms is responsible for the aids problem in Africa when it simply isnt. It would also be funny if it wasnt so sad how often people conveniently forget to quote the message properly... condoms are wrong and so is sex outside of marriage. The problem in Africa is poverty, lack of education, cultural norms about asking a partner to wear a condom is showing lack of trust, that real men dont wear condoms and the belief that some retard in a headress can cure HIV.

From this board can see what they were on about with the aggressive secularism though....

More straw-man arguments. I've not seen people claim that the Catholic church is responsible for the AIDS situation in Africa. If I'm wrong about it, I'll happily admit so if you show me someone who has. However, what has been said is that his attitude to condoms is dangerous and potentially making the situation worse.

 

[R2D3]

More straw-man arguments. I've not seen people claim that the Catholic church is responsible for the AIDS situation in Africa. If I'm wrong about it, I'll happily admit so if you show me someone who has. However, what has been said is that his attitude to condoms is dangerous and potentially making the situation worse.

Ture not explicitly, but then I could for example say "Muslim clerics who spout anti american sentiments should be ashamed they say down with the west, death to the west and then 9/11 etc happened" at no point am I saying that they are responsible...

Ah potentially, well yes potentially, but then a butterfly has the potential to cause severe weather on the other side of the world. Those bastard butterflies

Anyways play time over, back to work

 

[R2D3]

I stopped reading here. The guardian, that bastion of unbiased journalism, next you will be linking to channel 4.

:lol: wasnt me linking to the Guardian, but nice try :wub:

 

[Raven]

Except reading the guardian article at no point is he quoted as saying that condoms didnt have an effect on preventing HIV transmission if you were going to have sex with someone who was HIV positive, he actually said that the only full proof method of defeating the epidemic was to change the current practices.

Using the ducking bullets anology, ok ducking may help 80% of the time, but maybe a better option would be to stop shouting "hey dickhead your mum is a whore and you couldnt hit a barn door at ten paces"? If a condom was 99.99999999999999 etc % effective against catching HIV I still wouldnt take the risk if the odds were that the person was HIV+.

Absolutely, neither would I, I wouldn't go anywhere near someone (sexually) if I knew they were HIV positive, nothing but abstaining from sex will prevent HIV transmission from sexual intercourse 100% of the time but if people are going to do it (and they will, they are human) then using a condom is essential. You just can't stop people from having sex, it just won't happen. Obviously some people have been living with their mum for to long to understand the basic needs of a human being.

And Im not a Catholic and freely admit that a lot of what they say is BS, but it is also BS to try to claim that the Catholic message on condoms is responsible for the aids problem in Africa when it simply isnt. It would also be funny if it wasnt so sad how often people conveniently forget to quote the message properly... condoms are wrong and so is sex outside of marriage. The problem in Africa is poverty, lack of education, cultural norms about asking a partner to wear a condom is showing lack of trust, that real men dont wear condoms and the belief that some retard in a headress can cure HIV.

Some men will use any excuse to not use a condom, especially when they don't really understand the dangers of HIV, if they can say "but its wrong in the eyes of god" then the fellow Catholic cannot argue, especially when they are a women and deemed less than a man in the eyes of the catholic church. Non marital sex has nothing to do with it, any sex where HIV is involved is dangerous.

From this board can see what they were on about with the aggressive secularism though....

Nobody is being aggressive here, maybe over defensive from the god bothering camp with a few personal insults thrown in for good measure, the sign of an ignorant religious zealot.

 

[Raven]

:lol: wasnt me linking to the Guardian, but nice try :wub:

I don't think I said it was...did I? You used it as a basis for your argument though. ":lol:"