Poor, abused Hooligans?

[Gumbo]

Incidentally, I've been to 20+ International rugby matches with 80,000 drunken Rugby fans, and I've seen one Frenchman get a slap once, and that was cos he whistled at The national anthems. He said straight away, 'I am sorry, it is what we do at football.'.

Other than that no trouble whatsoever, there is no crowd seperation, a good move from the opposition is applauded, In the UK a respectful quiet is given to the goal kickers from both sides. In short, fine sportsmanship is shown not only on the pitch, but in the stands as well.

Shame the footie fans can't seem to manage a similar way of doing things.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by mank!
If they're causing trouble and inciting the Turks and get stabbed then that's fair enough, I hate hooligans as much as the next man.

You would have more reason than most to as well, but regretably its the reputation that counts. Classic example of how a few selfish wankers manage to ruin thousands of other peoples fun

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Will
Weirdly enough, Rangers/Celtic fans have a terrible reputation, yet the Scotland travelling support has a great one. I have no idea why.

Celtic fans were praised for their impeccable behaviour in Portugal for the UEFA Cup final, were they not?

 

[7th]

ok, let me try this one more time.... the majority of people who don't know the situation, label us all as thugs. i know that's not true and im not trying to brand yourself or any other genuine supporters as thugs or hooligans...

what im saying is, you could be a gentle pleasant genuine england supporter travelling to turkey to support your team... or you could be a hooligan... either way, the turkish are going to see you in the same bad light regardless of your true intentions

if various people in power have said "look, its dangerous, dont go if you have a strong interest in self preservation" then that pretty much says to me that they're expecting trouble. if they're expecting trouble and have given a warning out to potential travellers, you'd think people would be intelligent enough to stop and think "hold on, maybe this isnt such a good idea then"... i know some people are *really* passionate about football, but i cant comprehend how they could be blinded to the threat of a painful death at the hands of a mob.

so yes, its bad that whoever is trying to resolve the problem by saying "dont go" instead of "lets work this problem out and make it safe for supporters"... but how on earth do you protect that many supporters?....

for the record, i can't stand football. ill watch the odd england game or two but other than that i don't really like it at all. and no. i dont consider all english football fans to be thugs or hooligans.

7th

 

[Cdr]

Originally posted by mank!
If the FA were at all bothered, they could do a lot to guarantee these people's safety but instead they're trying to cure a headache with a sledgehammer.

Unfortunately, looking at it from the FA's point of view - there is no way they can totally guarantee the safety of every supporter.

Then what happens if they claim that they can? 3 or 4 people get seriously injured, maybe 1 or 2 die, the families will no doubt sue the FA for negligence, and the FA is having to pay out huge sums of money. Which can only be bad for the English game.

The fact of the matter is, its easier to stay at home and watch it on TV than goto Turkey and run the risk of getting injured.

But thats just me, I admit I'm not a huge football fan and so wont put my life on the line to see England play - I'd rather watch it in a pub or at home with a cold beer than in some hospital with cold steel sticking in me.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by mank!
Celtic fans were praised for their impeccable behaviour in Portugal for the UEFA Cup final, were they not?

The travelling support is very different from the local support. Try wearing a blue/green shirt on the underground on derby day.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
Shame the footie fans can't seem to manage a similar way of doing things.

Once again, you've made the mistake of thinking all football fans are hooligans.

The reason there isn't trouble surrounding rugby isbecause the minority of hooligans haven't decided to attach themselves to the English rugby side and the violence in football runs back a long time, the majority of hooligans don't care about football other than an opportunity to have a fight.

 

[Gumbo]

You're telling me that if the 'small minority' of troublemakers were removed from the face of the planet. That you could put the remaining 60,000 Rangers and Celtic fans in totally un-segregated stands and get away with it?

That if you removed the'small minority' of hooligans, that the remaining English fans would stand there quietly whilst the German Anthem was sung at Old Trafford, or the new Wembley or wherever?

Meheheheheh.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by 7th
if various people in power have said "look, its dangerous, dont go if you have a strong interest in self preservation" then that pretty much says to me that they're expecting trouble. if they're expecting trouble and have given a warning out to potential travellers, you'd think people would be intelligent enough to stop and think "hold on, maybe this isnt such a good idea then"... i know some people are *really* passionate about football, but i cant comprehend how they could be blinded to the threat of a painful death at the hands of a mob.

so yes, its bad that whoever is trying to resolve the problem by saying "dont go" instead of "lets work this problem out and make it safe for supporters"... but how on earth do you protect that many supporters?....

The threat of violence out there has been greatly exaggerated. The main reason people are worried is because of the Leeds fans who got stabbed years ago after a Champions League match with Galatasary, both team's fans are notorious With proper policing and a bit of common sense the violence could be theoretically prevented. If England fans were escorted to and from the ground, like I said before. England fans don't wear their colours, and just things like that make common sense.

I don't feel it's right that a huge majority should be denied the opportunity to see England play because of a minority who may cause some trouble. I don't care about England, but if Swindon were playing Galatasary I'd go. I wouldn't be stupid enough to wear my colours on the street, nor would I taunt Turkish fans, go into their pubs etc. All I want to do is watch the game.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
You're telling me that if the 'small minority' of troublemakers were removed from the face of the planet. That you could put the remaining 60,000 Rangers and Celtic fans in totally un-segregated stands and get away with it?

That if you removed the'small minority' of hooligans, that the remaining English fans would stand there quietly whilst the German Anthem was sung at Old Trafford, or the new Wembley or wherever?

Meheheheheh.

No, where did I imply any of that?

 

[toneh]

but rubgy is a bit shit gumbo.

 

[Gumbo]

Originally posted by mank!
No, where did I imply any of that?

By saying I had lumped fans in with hooligans.

My point is that you don't need to be the ones actually throwing the punches, to be lumped in with the idiots in a lot of peoples minds.

If all the small things were done differently the hooligan side would i'm sure dissappear. If instead of 20,000 people booing and whistling the opposing teams anthem there was respect shown for it. If a load of the chants weren't so aimed to rile the opposing fans. I went to a Norwich game vs Ipswich a few years ago and and an entire end of the ground were chanting about 'leading the scum two nil', Why is that necessary? How does that support help your team play better?

Yes there are plenty of genuine fans, who go to cheer on their side, many of them I'm sure are respectful, and if they weren't segregated would probably shake an opposing supporter by the hand, win or lose, at the end of the game, and say well done. But as long as there are thousands of the other sort, at pretty much every match, football will remain a tainted sport.

Oooh I just remembered I went to a Womens International at Carrow Road, England Vs Norway, (I have a Norweigan Mother, and thought she might enjoy it). Anyway, there were only about four and a half thousand people there, no segregation, and largely a good atmosphere. Until Norway went ahead after about 30 seconds or so. This started a bunch of people around us swearing at the few Norweigans dotted about. Now, these people doing the swearing probably wouldn't dream of getting into a rumble outside the ground, but if that sort of unsportsmanlike behaviour is endemic in the game, what hope is there?

 

[Gumbo]

Hmm after typing that I had a thought, maybe the perception from outside football is that the 'minority' is not in fact the hooligans. The perception is that the 'minority' is those people who would shake an opposing fans hand after the game, win or lose, and dare I say it, applaud a particularly impressive goal from the opponents striker who used to play for them.

The problem is with perception, and footballs job is to change that perception. As long as it remains as it is, a lot of people are going to hold similar views to me I guess, and the footballie people are going to argue against them, such is the way of the world *shrugs*

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
If all the small things were done differently the hooligan side would i'm sure dissappear. If instead of 20,000 people booing and whistling the opposing teams anthem there was respect shown for it. If a load of the chants weren't so aimed to rile the opposing fans. I went to a Norwich game vs Ipswich a few years ago and and an entire end of the ground were chanting about 'leading the scum two nil', Why is that necessary? How does that support help your team play better?

Football chants are synonymous with football and have been around for longer than most of us. I sing them, my Dad's sung them and thousands sing them at every match. Yes, they're designed to 'rile' your opponents fans but generally it's all done with humility and no real threat. It's just like the relationship I had with a couple of Oxford fans where I used to work, we used to wind each other up, call each others team "The Scum" and take the piss, but at the end of the day we were good friends. It's a similar thing on the terraces, we sing these songs to have a laugh - not to start a fight. At Swindon we have a gang of hooligans (called the SAS, which always makes me laugh) who despite being banned from the matches still organise fights with other gangs from visiting teams away from the ground. This has nothing to do with football at all, they're not fighting because of the atmosphere within the match or because of the result, or because of a dodgy penalty decision. It's got nothing to do with the 5,000 in the County Ground on a Saturday afternoon singing to support their team and get behind them.

You say that the atmosphere can't help your team, but what would you rather? A quiet ground with nobody but people talking with the people they're with or thousands of people singing their heads off to get behind their team and spur the players on? I know which I'd rather.

Originally posted by Gumbo
Yes there are plenty of genuine fans, who go to cheer on their side, many of them I'm sure are respectful, and if they weren't segregated would probably shake an opposing supporter by the hand, win or lose, at the end of the game, and say well done. But as long as there are thousands of the other sort, at pretty much every match, football will remain a tainted sport.

Most of the fans who sing at matches aren't hooligans. Most of these people would go up and shake hands with opposition fans win, lose or draw. It's just unfortunate that people consider these people to be hooligans, which is why football will remain a tainted sport.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
Hmm after typing that I had a thought, maybe the perception from outside football is that the 'minority' is not in fact the hooligans. The perception is that the 'minority' is those people who would shake an opposing fans hand after the game, win or lose, and dare I say it, applaud a particularly impressive goal from the opponents striker who used to play for them.

That is exactly the perception people have, and it's the opposite. Football is a passionate game which is why people love it so much, you can't expect people not to show their emotion about it. The problem is when people use this 'emotion' as an excuse to cause trouble. It's not the reason they cause it, it's the excuse they use. They care about football as much as you do.

Oh, and whatever happens if Eric Sabin scores against us this season he won't get clapped and he won't be expecting it.

 

[Gumbo]

Originally posted by mank!


You say that the atmosphere can't help your team, but what would you rather? A quiet ground with nobody but people talking with the people they're with or thousands of people singing their heads off to get behind their team and spur the players on? I know which I'd rather.

Heh, I don't think you could consider Twickenham to be 'quiet', but I see your point. It's just a shame that these traditional chants have to be designed to wind people up, good natured or not

Originally posted by mank!

Most of the fans who sing at matches aren't hooligans. Most of these people would go up and shake hands with opposition fans win, lose or draw. It's just unfortunate that people consider these people to be hooligans, which is why football will remain a tainted sport.

Heh, I think this is what I said in my last post, at least as closely as we could expect each others viewpoints to say the same thing anyway

 

[Gumbo]

I think we've run the course of this discussion now, so can I say how refreshing it was to have a good old fashioned, well reasoned and lively forum argument without muppets ruining it with irrelevant shite.

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
Heh, I don't think you could consider Twickenham to be 'quiet', but I see your point. It's just a shame that these traditional chants have to be designed to wind people up, good natured or not

It's all part and parcel of the footballing experience. Personally, I love it and I'm about as violent as a monk.

Originally posted by Gumbo
Heh, I think this is what I said in my last post, at least as closely as we could expect each others viewpoints to say the same thing anyway

Well, I thought you were implying that all the people who sing these songs at football are hooligans and they're the reason football will remain a tainted sport, and I said it was because of perceptions and preconceptions like yours that football will remain a tainted sport

 

[mank!]

Originally posted by Gumbo
I think we've run the course of this discussion now, so can I say how refreshing it was to have a good old fashioned, well reasoned and lively forum argument without muppets ruining it with irrelevant shite.

Yes, it does make a change and I've found something I can discuss passionately without getting bored. Woot!

I have however made 64 posts already. Shit.