Rant Piggy flu vaccinations.

old.Tohtori

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I don't really care for vaccinations, i rather let my body deal with things as it does with no outside help.

Well, piggy flu vaccinations isn't that different, but this really nailed it(even if i'm in the "you might die more" risk group);

Heard on the radio that in sweden, 80% of the people who got the vaccinations had side effects that were...ironic enough...a fever and respiratory problems :D

That's not really the funny part of it though; Today, finland will be iving the SAME vaccinations sweden used.

What the f'ing f*ck? I really hope someone can tell me what the point is with an 80% side effect problems?
 

Sparx

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for the vaccines to work they actually give you the bug but at a milder dosage so your body can create its own fight against it and you make yourself immune
 

old.Tohtori

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Well that's rather stupid.

Especially as the vaccination is only reserved for risk groups like kids, old people and soldiers :eek6:

Here kid, have some "h1n1 Light", it wno't kill you as much :p
 

Ch3tan

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Erm toht, as sparx said, a vaccination works by teaching your body how to fight the virus. It does this by giving you a mild version that your immune system can actually overcome. you are basically ranting that the idea of vaccines is shit?
 

old.Tohtori

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Erm toht, as sparx said, a vaccination works by teaching your body how to fight the virus. It does this by giving you a mild version that your immune system can actually overcome. you are basically ranting that the idea of vaccines is shit?

Not the idea, but the implementation and more the over-vaccination of everything.

If 80% of people basically get the same problems from the vaccination, even if at a slightly reduced state, then it's not really a working vaccination and not worth the hassle.
 

cHodAX

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What worries me is that we are spending billions vaccinating the population and the virus could (and has already) quite easily mutate into something the immune system will not have been exposed to in the vaccine therefore making it pointless. That money could have been much more wisely used in boosting hospital staff numbers in readiness for a major outbreak.
 

Ch3tan

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Not the idea, but the implementation and more the over-vaccination of everything.

If 80% of people basically get the same problems from the vaccination, even if at a slightly reduced state, then it's not really a working vaccination and not worth the hassle.

doh! toht. The problems you are talking about -that is the vaccine working.
 

Sparx

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Not the idea, but the implementation and more the over-vaccination of everything.

If 80% of people basically get the same problems from the vaccination, even if at a slightly reduced state, then it's not really a working vaccination and not worth the hassle.

Yes but that mild dose will stop them from getting the full blown virus which could kill them
 

old.Tohtori

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doh! toht. The problems you are talking about -that is the vaccine working.

What is the benefit though?

Killing the flu? Is that possible even?
Making sure people don't get sick?

Because if the vaccination gives the same symptoms and disables a person in the same way...well...again, what's the use?

to be honest cHodAX has the right idea, spend the money on hospital staff and such.

the full blown virus isn't exactly ig deadly black death either, from what i've read/heard, it's just a lightly more spread cold.
 

cHodAX

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to be honest cHodAX has the right idea, spend the money on hospital staff and such.

No money to be made for the global drug companies that way and so it won't happen, the vaccine is all a big con to enrich these companies. It will save some lives but not as many as you might think and alot of people will have the vaccine wasted on them instead of having given themselves the chance to build a natural immunity. If some people were weak enough to die from H1N1 there is a good chance something else was going to kill them before long anyway.
 

old.Tohtori

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No money to be made for the global drug companies that way and so it won't happen, the vaccine is all a big con to enrich these companies. It will save some lives but not as many as you might think and alot of people will have the vaccine wasted on them instead of having given themselves the chance to build a natural immunity. If some people were weak enough to die from H1N1 there is a good chance something else was going to kill them before long anyway.

Not to mention, they will NEVER report if someone dies from getting "h1n1 Light" from the vaccination.

Same goes for the every-year influenza vaccination. They've got the peolpe right where they want them; give them vaccinations and make sure they need one next year.
 

Ch3tan

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Not to mention, they will NEVER report if someone dies from getting "h1n1 Light" from the vaccination.

Same goes for the every-year influenza vaccination. They've got the peolpe right where they want them; give them vaccinations and make sure they need one next year.

Woah tin foil hat of doom! Actually there are lots of cases here in the UK where vaccines have been blamed for deaths, including a recent one for young girls against cervical cancer. There is not big cover up, governments think best practise is to vaccinate rather than risk lots of deaths, getting the vaccine is your personal choice. Like you I choose not to as I am not in a high risk group, if I was in my 50's + or more prone to it then I probably would. But it's not forced upon anyone.
 

fl3a

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What is the benefit though?

Killing the flu? Is that possible even?
Making sure people don't get sick?

Because if the vaccination gives the same symptoms and disables a person in the same way...well...again, what's the use?

to be honest cHodAX has the right idea, spend the money on hospital staff and such.

the full blown virus isn't exactly ig deadly black death either, from what i've read/heard, it's just a lightly more spread cold.

the use is that people get sick under controlled circumstances. you get vaccinated, you probably/maybe get the symptoms, you get symptomatic treatment from your GP or just stay at home and nolife it off. you can notify work, school etc that you will be getting the mandatory vaccination and there is a high chance of you falling ill and not being able to go / not being as productive.

yes, it is a drain on the economy to vaccinate people and then watch them fall ill, but an even bigger drain on the economy is to watch people fall ill, have to figure out wtf is wrong with them and then put into effect some last minute fix in order to take care of the problems that surface when a person falls ill and cant fill his spot.
 

rynnor

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I think in hindsight they will decide that mass vaccinating against h1n1 was a mistake.

They are following a plan that was based on an assumption of a much more lethal flu variant like H5N1 - in such a case mass vaccination makes perfect sense.

H1N1 is a pretty mild flu slightly worse than seasonal flu - some raise the spectre of it mutating to something worse but we have never actually seen this happen within any previous pandemic so seems unlikely and if it did it could equally prove to be un-affected by the vaccine.

Next no-one knows how effective these vaccines will actually prove to be - they could be a complete washout.

Statistically mass vaccination will kill/cripple a few people regardless of how safe the vaccine was - thats just a given.

Next theres the new and largely untested vaccines - some produced using new techniques and using adjuvants (chemicals to boost the vaccines effect) that are still pretty new.

Finally you are giving these vaccines to children and the pregnant - if anyone will have issues it will be these groups.

All in all I reckon vaccination will produce little gain v non-vaccination when you look at the death/complication rates.

Edit - still think yourself lucky your not in the US - they are using vaccines that have mercury as the adjuvant :p
 

old.Tohtori

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Woah tin foil hat of doom! Actually there are lots of cases here in the UK where vaccines have been blamed for deaths, including a recent one for young girls against cervical cancer. There is not big cover up, governments think best practise is to vaccinate rather than risk lots of deaths, getting the vaccine is your personal choice. Like you I choose not to as I am not in a high risk group, if I was in my 50's + or more prone to it then I probably would. But it's not forced upon anyone.

Not at all a tinfoil hattery moment, just a probability.

It's not good for the government to notify "we killed 3 people with this vaccinaton, but you should get it".

It's good that it's a choice, i'm not getting one even IN the risk group as it's less of a chance to get h1n1 then the 80% risk in the vaccination. It may be a higher risk IF i get h1n1, but the vaccination risk is still a big risk for me. I simply have a rant up my hiney about...

the use is that people get sick under controlled circumstances. you get vaccinated, you probably/maybe get the symptoms, you get symptomatic treatment from your GP or just stay at home and nolife it off. you can notify work, school etc that you will be getting the mandatory vaccination and there is a high chance of you falling ill and not being able to go / not being as productive.

yes, it is a drain on the economy to vaccinate people and then watch them fall ill, but an even bigger drain on the economy is to watch people fall ill, have to figure out wtf is wrong with them and then put into effect some last minute fix in order to take care of the problems that surface when a person falls ill and cant fill his spot.

...not seeing the point as the risk of the side-effects is so high compared to the h1n1.

Estimates said less then 20% of people in Finland will get h1n1, no matter if they are in the risk group, so if we vaccinate the risk group and 80% of those get ill, the strain will be larger.

May be a cold and non-human approach to look at numbers compared to few deathrisks, and ironically i'll probably croak due to h1n1, but i think it's a valid point still.
 

fl3a

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Estimates said less then 20% of people in Finland will get h1n1, no matter if they are in the risk group, so if we vaccinate the risk group and 80% of those get ill, the strain will be larger.

but if all of the risk group is vaccinated, and a majority of those suffers a mild illness, the overall strain on the whole population is less - the quoted number of up to 20% getting H1N1 is made up of the normal group and the risk group. risk group means that people in that group are more likely to contract the virus. thus, a larger part of the 20% is formed by the risk group than would be expected from their overall population in the country.

if none of the risk group falls ill the percentage of population affected by the severe form of the virus at once will not be 20%. it might even be smaller than 10% - i dont have the numbers nor the means to calculate the probabilities and expected results of the vaccination, but i know who does. the people who are leading the vaccination campaign. add the aspects of controllability and milder symptoms to it and vaccination even if you fall ill makes sense, even if it is marginal.
 

Zenith

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AFAIK, the vaccine is not supposed to give such a big side-effects. That was a problem and it shouldnt have happened. Sideeffects take place with most vaccines though.

I am too, however, worried by the overvaccination nowadays. It fucks up your own immunesystem in the long run. And lets not even talk about the overuse of antibiotics.....
 

Aoami

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i disagree to an extent. The vaccines are being given in preperation for the cold winter months when flu viruses are more prevelent. If you have h1n1 and standard winter flu and 60+ chances are you're probably fucked.
 

Dark Orb Choir

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i had swine flu for 2 and a half weeks, i had tamiflu and that got rid of the fever but i also got a really bad cold afterwards as well, i cant believe Tohtori doesnt know what the vacinations do, how old are you....... like 12


i think the vacination should be for the at risk groups of people and not the general populace, plus people who work in hospitals etc
 

old.Tohtori

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i cant believe Tohtori doesnt know what the vacinations do, how old are you....... like 12

Yeah, that was really necessary to say.

I know the basics, just not the definition and i didn't remember that it's mild version of the h1n1. No need to be a condescending a about it.

but if all of the risk group is vaccinated, and a majority of those suffers a mild illness, the overall strain on the whole population is less - the quoted number of up to 20% getting H1N1 is made up of the normal group and the risk group. risk group means that people in that group are more likely to contract the virus. thus, a larger part of the 20% is formed by the risk group than would be expected from their overall population in the country.

if none of the risk group falls ill the percentage of population affected by the severe form of the virus at once will not be 20%. it might even be smaller than 10% - i dont have the numbers nor the means to calculate the probabilities and expected results of the vaccination, but i know who does. the people who are leading the vaccination campaign. add the aspects of controllability and milder symptoms to it and vaccination even if you fall ill makes sense, even if it is marginal.

If you compare full population(5.3mil) vs risk group(800k) and compare it to the overall risk(1mil), you reach a sterile number that 20% of the 20% are the risk group.

So the numbers may go down to 15% even, maybe at stretch 10% if they considered the risk group into the 20% as 50%, but even then 80% of the 50% will for sure be a strain(ill etc) and still leaves 10% of the population as a risk.

Ofcourse it might lower the overall strain, but without knowing the full scale until after(where and how wide it spreads), it doesn't seem that prudent when you take all into account.

I guess time will tell who really was right, but if after the vaccination still a good 15% get h1n1 and the 80% of the vaccinated become a strain on community, it's not worth it.

If the vaccinations drop the risk from 20% to 10% fullstop, then we've got a 18% strain on the community still when taking the vaccination side-effects into play.
 

old.Tohtori

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In short though, final word really;

I think it's a waste with such a high side-effect risk as it doesn't cut the strain on community that much.
 

rynnor

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i disagree to an extent. The vaccines are being given in preperation for the cold winter months when flu viruses are more prevelent. If you have h1n1 and standard winter flu and 60+ chances are you're probably fucked.

60+ age group have more to fear from normal seasonal flu than h1n1 - I find the UK's targetted groups a little odd tbh :p

I think they avoided children because A - theres tons of them and they have limited supply available currently and B - it would be contravertsial and they dont have any mass studies of the vaccine in children to give themselves a reasonable safety estimate.

It is odd though because old people are shown to be resistant yet they will get it before children who are a main carrier in society and have been shown to be vulnerable...
 

Dark Orb Choir

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OMFG

Yeah, that was really necessary to say.

I know the basics, just not the definition and i didn't remember that it's mild version of the h1n1. No need to be a condescending a about it.

how can you not see how that is pot calling kettle
 

old.Tohtori

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OMFG

Yeah, that was really necessary to say.

No it wasn't, i didn't remember it and didn't know exact science. No need to call me 12 over it. Or did i call you on something you didn't remember? Or did i mock you for not knowing something?

Ofcourse not.

You probably mock people when they can't remember how to calculate the volume of a bathtub right?

Now stop being a troll about it.
 

Bahumat

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I heard when these viruses come out, they usually come back stronger in X amount of months. Having the vaccine should protect you against the stronger strain later on.

Fuck knows if its true
 

Aoami

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Swine Flu 2: Revenge of the Pork. Release date 17/11/09.
 

Moriath

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btw the swine flu vaccine is a deactivated form of the virus .. meaning that it doesnt contain the whole virus just a section of it that your immune system can use to create markers for so that if the active virus comes along it knows how to deal with it.

The vaccine is not a lesser version of hte live virus as was said earlier in the thread.
 

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