Picking a fight...

[Scouse]

If you do, How do you believe in this?

Says to me that being chaste is about as "un-natural" as can be and, in mathematical terms, if you look for the lowest common denominator, belief in the Catholic faith fucks people up.

 

[mooSe_]

I agree very much

 

[Bahumat]

This is crazy. How did they win this? "The findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions - in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. "

And even if they did, surely there is a way to over turn this?

 

[DaGaffer]

If you do, How do you believe in this?

Says to me that being chaste is about as "un-natural" as can be and, in mathematical terms, if you look for the lowest common denominator, belief in the Catholic faith fucks people up.

Living over here, I find opportunities to rant about the Catholic Church all the time (being English they all regard me as a heathen anyway), but I think its important to separate your two observations. I happen to agree with both of them, but its easier to find the cracks in the catholic armour on the celibate priests bit, rather than the er, more confrontational, "you're catholic, therefore fucked up" approach

(NB. I've been banned from talking about religion to my 9-year-old niece who's just made her communion by her mother. I'm thinking of instituting the office of "anti-God parent" for the sake of balance).

 

[pez]

How can you believe in Democracy and the right to vote when MPs abuse the system so much, anyone who believes in democracy is clearly and idiot.

 

[Scouse]

If you're posting on-thread, Pez, I think they won't prosecute the Church simply because that'd make the case for the governmental failures to be subject to prosecution too. The government of a country always protects itself, democratic or not.

Government inspectors failed to stop beatings, rapes and humiliation.

As for Democracy, it's a fantastic idea burdened with a deeply flawed implementation.


Edit: I notice no Catholics renouncing their faith in this thread. The question asked at the beginning was a valid one. How can any Catholic justify to themselves continued faith in such a system? I mean, how do you do it?

 

[nath]

Do we actually have any Catholics here to renounce their faith in the first place?

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Raised as Catholic, I stopped going to church when I was 16. My mum didn't talk to me for a month and didn't back down from my decision.

Most peaceful month of my teenage years.

 

[mooSe_]

I don't think there is any catholic's here, otherwise it would have been more than the world vs tohtori in that religion thread

 

[Scouse]

/prods Turamber

C'mon m8. I don't bite. I am interested how a Christian deals with this...

 

[nath]

Just playing devils advocate... well, God's advocate I guess. I don't see why a bunch of absolute bastards* that are associated with a particular religion should affect ones faith in God. The two things are quite easily separated.

I guess I could see if people really had a lot of faith in the institution, but faith in an institution and faith in His Noodley Appendage are two different things.








*I can't actually adequately express what I think of them. Calling them ***** seems so trivial, I can't think of anything worse.

 

[mooSe_]

/prods Turamber

C'mon m8. I don't bite. I am interested how a Christian deals with this...

Well I can't speak for religious folk, however I would assume that losing your faith in the religious organisation doesn't necessarily mean you lose your personal faith in God. I know some people are religious but think that organised religion is just as stupid as I think it is.

 

[DaGaffer]

Just playing devils advocate... well, God's advocate I guess. I don't see why a bunch of absolute bastards* that are associated with a particular religion should affect ones faith in God. The two things are quite easily separated.

I guess I could see if people really had a lot of faith in the institution, but faith in an institution and faith in His Noodley Appendage are two different things.

The problem is that if you've bought into that particular flavour of Sky-fairy worship, then it comes with a load of baggage that to all intents and purposes made those bastards into the creatures they are/were. Being a "good Catholic" means buying into the whole burden of "original sin", and the prurient attitudes towards sex (common in almost all religions but particularly twisted in Catholicism) that leads to "celibate" priests in the first place.

If you don't buy into the institutions and dogma of Catholicism, then why call yourself Catholic at all? But if you do buy into the dogma, which at base is no different in matters regarding sex than it was 500 years ago (its just that setting fire to sinners is frowned upon by secular authority these days), then you're going to get the priesthood you deserve, kiddie-fiddlers and all. Priests are the same mammals with (to quote Christopher Hitchens) over-developed adrenal glands and under-developed pre-frontal lobes as the rest of us; stop a man (particularly a man with power over his "flock") getting his rocks off the way the rest of humanity does and they'll resort to other methods .

 

[noblok]

stop a man (particularly a man with power over his "flock") getting his rocks off the way the rest of humanity does and they'll resort to other methods .

I don't. Although it's only been 1.5 years since I've given up masturbation (and as I've had no girlfriend in that time, I haven't had sex either), I think I would've experienced some difficulties if your theory were true, but it's quite easy, really.

The catholic view on sexuality does not necessarily lead to paedophile priests. I'm fairly sure it's only a minority. Although I'll admit that paedophiles are probably relatively overrepresented among catholic priests.

I am of course not condoning what happened. I simply don't think Catholicism can be blamed for it. If you can't stick to the celibate, you shouldn't become a priest. It is after all perfectly fine for non-priests to have sex (in marriage - but as that's pretty hard to adhere to in our current society, there's no decent priests who'll condemn you for having sex when you're not married).

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't. Although it's only been 1.5 years since I've given up masturbation (and as I've had no girlfriend in that time, I haven't had sex either), I think I would've experienced some difficulties if your theory were true, but it's quite easy, really.

No offence, but I'd say your, er, self-restraint, puts you in a very small minority. (I'm not even going to get into why you would even want to abstain; so long as your not forcing it on others from the pulpit I don't care).

The catholic view on sexuality does not necessarily lead to paedophile priests. I'm fairly sure it's only a minority. Although I'll admit that paedophiles are probably relatively overrepresented among catholic priests.

I'm not sure if any studies have been done on causation v. correlation in this instance, but this is being regarded as a systemic and global phenomenon. I find it quite difficult to believe there's no connection between catholic doctrine - celibate priests - sexual abuse, because it isn't happening to a fraction of this extent amongst protestants.

I am of course not condoning what happened. I simply don't think Catholicism can be blamed for it. If you can't stick to the celibate, you shouldn't become a priest. It is after all perfectly fine for non-priests to have sex (in marriage - but as that's pretty hard to adhere to in our current society, there's no decent priests who'll condemn you for having sex when you're not married).

Ignoring my point above, you're actually missing the point that its the inherent logical failure in Catholicism (and other religions) that is the root cause of the problem. Instead of saying "if you can't be celibate, don't be a priest", you should be asking "why do priests have to be celibate in the first place?" They weren't during the first centuries of the Catholic Church; it was actually a political decision (to stop priests giving away church property to their offspring) that's at the root of the whole celibacy thing anyway, they just dressed it up in the trappings of "sin". Tie in the fact that priests have that genius get out of jail free card whereby they confess their sins to each other and you've got fertile ground for abuse.

 

[pez]

My point was that a bunch of Irish kiddie fiddlers has as much do to with the worthiness of Catholicism as a bunch of moat-claiming politicians has with the worthiness of democracy.

Perhaps if I was Irish I would care more but frankly I suspect its disgusting and saddening but ultimately directly irrelevant to most Catholics

 

[DaGaffer]

My point was that a bunch of Irish kiddie fiddlers has as much do to with the worthiness of Catholicism as a bunch of moat-claiming politicians has with the worthiness of democracy.

Perhaps if I was Irish I would care more but frankly I suspect its disgusting and saddening but ultimately directly irrelevant to most Catholics

But its not just Ireland. This has been the subject of lawsuits in the US, Australia and a number of other countries. If it was just Ireland, you could make an argument about some local cultural problem, but it isn't.

 

[pez]

A. that wasn't the question

and

B. Its not local to my Catholic community or upbringing

atleast afaik

 

[Jaberwocky]

Interestingly a number of the priests involved in one house run by the Christian brotherhood had been investigated for alleged child abuse in the UK during the 1970's, they where recalled to Ireland by the church placed into one of these God forsaken Victorian era reform Schools for young boys where they where shielded by their superiors and continued to abuse, they where even excused their vows in the hope they'd no longer prey on the boys under their care.

For a long time the Irish Catholic Church, it's representatives and it's reputation where more important than the wards in it's care. Some still hang on to that ethos and seem to still be shielded by Irish law.

 

[noblok]

No offence, but I'd say your, er, self-restraint, puts you in a very small minority. (I'm not even going to get into why you would even want to abstain; so long as your not forcing it on others from the pulpit I don't care).

Then again, only a small minority are priests, so I don't know if this is really important that only a small minority of people are capable of it.

I'm not sure if any studies have been done on causation v. correlation in this instance, but this is being regarded as a systemic and global phenomenon. I find it quite difficult to believe there's no connection between catholic doctrine - celibate priests - sexual abuse, because it isn't happening to a fraction of this extent amongst protestants.

There may be causation. My point is that it isn't a necessary causation. I have no intention of raping young children, despite abstaining. It is possible for some human beings to adhere to the celibate without falling into excesses. If the catholic Church thinks it's important for their priests to keep to the celibate (which is - I admit - debatable), then only people who are able to do so, should become priests. Sure, this may be (too) hard for many people, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe priests aren't meant to be "the same mammals [...] as the rest of us".

Ignoring my point above, you're actually missing the point that its the inherent logical failure in Catholicism (and other religions) that is the root cause of the problem. Instead of saying "if you can't be celibate, don't be a priest", you should be asking "why do priests have to be celibate in the first place?" They weren't during the first centuries of the Catholic Church; it was actually a political decision (to stop priests giving away church property to their offspring) that's at the root of the whole celibacy thing anyway, they just dressed it up in the trappings of "sin". Tie in the fact that priests have that genius get out of jail free card whereby they confess their sins to each other and you've got fertile ground for abuse.

The question as to why priests should be celibate is a legitimate question, but while the celibate is the rule I think it makes sense to say that one should only become a priest if one can be celibate. If you can't, you're just not up to the job. It's not like the catholic Church condones these things. Although I also think they don't deal the right way with theses cases. They should be more ready to admit the faults* of those priests and condemn them more openly and explicitly.

I'm also not certain on what the theological argument for abstaining is, but it seems very strange to me that it'd have to do with sin. After all, it's perfectly OK and even encouraged for non-priests to have sex. (Wikipedia also makes no mention of it, but obviously wikipedia doesn't know everything: feel free to show me an encyclical which says otherwise.)


*I know this is very euphemistic, but I don't really know how else to phrase it.