Phorm

[nath]

Quite surprised that no one's brought this up already. Some links if you're unaware:

Phorm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC NEWS | Technology | Phorm 'illegal' says policy group
BBC NEWS | Technology | Phorm: Your questions answered
Top security firm: Phorm is adware | The Register

If you can't be bothered to read those, the idea is that ISP's install some Phorm servers their end and it intercepts all HTTP traffic from users pc's and profiles it. This is all in order to provide relevant adverts (something we're supposed to be excited about). The problem is, there's all sorts of questions about the legality of this. Phorm wanted to make it an opt-out system whereby you store a cookie on your system that registers that you're not wanting to be profiled but it's pretty obvious why that's such a bad idea. The alternative is an opt-in system where by default your system isn't profiled, however as I understand it even if you're on an opt-in network and haven't opted in your data is still being monitored, it's just the data is disregarded.

I think it's absolutely fucking disgraceful that internet providers are considering implementing this shit. As Sir Tim Berners-Lee says the internet should be provided like other utilities, water/gas/electricity - pump it in to your house and nothing more.

Some of the attitudes towards this are pretty disgraceful too - I've seen the usual "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", and apparently the guy behind the software Kent Ertugrul can't see what all the fuss is about.

If anyone actually has any faith in the wonderful government e-petitions there's one that's been set up to try and get this whole thing sorted out. I personally doubt it'll have any effect, and if anything all the bad press is going to shaft Phorm - but here's the link anyway.

Petition to: Stop ISP's from breaching customers privacy via advertising technologies.

Any thoughts?

 

[Scouse]

I think it's absolutely fucking disgraceful that internet providers are considering implementing this shit...

Some of the attitudes towards this are pretty disgraceful too ..."If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear"...

Any thoughts?

Loads m8 - but incitement to violence is nowadays a criminal offence so I'd better not comment.

But if anyone would like to shoot the fucker behind this in the face before laying waste to his whole family and anyone who ever "met" him as an example to all those who would invade my privacy in the future, then I'd buy him a pint*.





*Well, I'd send him a fiver over paypal. I'd be a bit scared.

 

[Raven]

meh, i am sure there will be a firefox ad-on to block most of it

 

[nath]

Maybe block the effects, but the problem is the monitoring equipment is stored on the server so add-ons wouldn't affect it. In fact it's probably things like adblock that made this fucker think "oo, how can we get around adware prevention. I know, lets get the ISP's to be complicit in data rape!"

 

[old.Tohtori]

Server logs, ISP scanners, "snoop-a-bots" singing "they forgot about dre" while rummaging through your discarded porn(is there such a thing?)...all very very very...useless really. Spend that money on, hell, healthcare or cancer research and leave people wank whatever they want to wank to.

It's not like a terrorist organizations or a pedophiles are limited to using the internets.

NS

 

[Dukat]

Does anyone actually look at internet adverts anyway? I sure has hell dont. 99% of the adverts seem to be things like "SHOOT THIS BADGER TO GET TWELVETY THOUSAND POUNDS" anyway, and surely no one falls of those bloody things anymore??

Whenever I read webpages nowadays my mind just phases out all of that crap, I'm so used to the flashing text and stupid animations that it just doesnt even register, I would be suprised if I'm the only one this is true of, so surely they cant be making much money from all of this?

 

[Scouse]

Both grr and arg to your post m8

 

[Jonty]

Does anyone actually look at internet adverts anyway?

That's true, there is research regarding how people scan webpages, and it shows we're now quite savvy at ignoring banner adverts without really thinking. That said, text adverts have a higher click-through rate, and a surprising number of people still don't appreciate the difference between Google's sponsored results and the normal findings.

As for Phorm, I agree it's another bad idea in a long history of bad ideas. Personally I don't have anything to hide, but it would be better as an opt-in system (or just not at all, but that's wishful thinking). The 'benefits' of Phorm are somewhat pathetic for end users, though, so I doubt many people would sign-up unless they received some financial incentive.

We should all be aware that a lot of internet traffic is monitored already, which is fair enough to prevent crime. However, private companies trying to make more cash isn't exactly a noble enterprise.

Kind regards

 

[Dukat]

Q: Given Phorm's history (as 121media) in the murky world of adware and spyware, how can we trust it today? Why should we trust it?

A: It's true that we have a background in adware, not spyware. Part of the reason we decided to get out out the adware business was because we realised it was very difficult for people to distinguish between the two.

I find adware worse than spyware in many cases because its so much more common - you can often avoid spyware just by staying away from the unsafe area's of the 'net - adware is everywhere though and its a real pain sometimes, especially as its usually targetted at shoppers.

I thought adware was illegal though? Didnt Zango or whoever it was get sued like 3 million for what they did?

I dont see what service these adware/spyware companies provide to the net that is so worthwhile that they havent been culled for thier quasi-legal activities. They gum up networks with thier spam-traffic, they infect computers, they make people paranoid about browsing, they generally cause most of the problems that exist on the internet nowadays, if they all just disappeared would we really be losing anything? I know there must be a fair amount of cash involved in them, but surely its nothing when compared to teh ecommerce that goes on?

 

[DaGaffer]

The reason why Phorm and other evil ideas like this are getting interest from the ISPs is twofold; first, ad revenue in general is all being concentrated in search (nearly 60% of all online advertising in the UK goes to Google), which means less revenue for the portals, and the flat rate broadband is killing them because even ignoring P2P traffic, legitimate download activity, particularly iPlayer and iTunes, is fucking up their businesses. Now, you can argue that its their fault for going flat rate in the first place, but now they're a corner they can't get out of. When Tim Berners-Lee says things like ISPs should be utilities just be like gas or water, that idea is terrifying to them, because those self-same utilities don't make money from being 'just a pipe' either.

I think that a bit of a reality check is in order, from ISPs, but also from customers. We want high quality broadband, but we're not prepared to pay the true cost of it; which is why you get garbage services like Tiscali, and why you get the likes of BT and Virgin seriously considering Phorm. We should also be concerned about the concentration of all that ad revenue with Google; you would be amazed at just how much time and effort any online business has to spend in relation to their Google search rankings and their sponsored search budget; I don't think this is healthy for the web in the long run.

 

[bob269]

The New York Times > Log In

Now, three Internet providers in Britain have teamed up to try to obtain a piece of online advertising for themselves. The three companies - BT, Carphone Warehouse and Virgin Media - announced a deal last week with a company called Phorm, whose technology tracks Web users and sends them ads related to their interests.

Phorm said it would set up a new online advertising platform called the Open Internet Exchange, which any Web site would be allowed to join. Proceeds from ads shown on these publishers’ sites will be shared with BT, Carphone Warehouse and Virgin Media, which together represent more than two-thirds of Britain’s Internet access market.

The three Internet providers have agreed to give Phorm access to customers’ browsing records, letting it track a Web user’s every move. That way, the Internet exchange can send an ad directly to a select audience anywhere on the Web, rather than hoping that the user lands on a site displaying the ad.

Whether you've got anything to hide or not, it's still disgraceful that they are giving browsing records away to 3rd parties to throw spam back at you

 

[Scouse]

I think that a bit of a reality check is in order, from ISPs, but also from customers. We want high quality broadband, but we're not prepared to pay the true cost of it; which is why you get garbage services like Tiscali, and why you get the likes of BT and Virgin seriously considering Phorm.

I like a lot of what you're saying but this seems a bit naieve.

Companies will try to monetise everything. If BT and Virgin could print money out of their employees assholes they'd still try to do this - because their competitors would.

Yay capitalism!

 

[DaGaffer]

I like a lot of what you're saying but this seems a bit naieve.

Companies will try to monetise everything. If BT and Virgin could print money out of their employees assholes they'd still try to do this - because their competitors would.

Yay capitalism!

While you're correct that most companies will discuss nasty ideas, believe it or not, wiser heads normally prevail, because amazing as it may seem, not everyone in a large corporation is an idiot. BT will have been warned by loads of people within the business that this was a bad idea, and in a good year they would have heeded that advice. This isn't a good year to be an ISP however, and looking at the seas of red ink on the balance sheet, someone will have said "we need to go for it".

I remember sitting in a planning meeting discussing something very similar to Phorm ten years ago (it was for an ad-funded free ISP idea), and everyone discussing it seriously, and then saying "bad idea".

 

[Raven]

Does anyone actually look at internet adverts anyway?

Not if they use firefox they dont, AdBlock plus you see

 

[Jimmy]

Phorm slammed as 'illegal' - vnunet.com

found that quite interesting

 

[bob269]

According to the wiki it is illegal unless both you and your isp give explicit authorisation for them to log your info.

BT are already apparetnly facing legal action for trialing it on 10000 customers without permission

If phorm is passed and used what effect will this have on system performance? how exactly does it work, the isp's are already complaining about the strain on their bandwidth

 

[inactionman]

Apparently it may be illegal unless the website at the other end also gives permission for the interception.

I suspect Phorm won't be able to do business anywhere in the EEA or anywhere else that has equivilent data protection legislation. Thankfully!

 

[nath]

Apparently it may be illegal unless the website at the other end also gives permission for the interception.

They've countered that argument by saying that if something is published on the web it's implied that it's ok for anyone to see it. However that doesn't counter the numerous sites that are not linked from anywhere, private by virtue of being in the middle of nowhere as it were.

 

[Aesgir]

For firefox users Dephormation Firefox 2 Add On - Stop Phorm / Block Webwise hopefully with share prices of Phorm bombing and such negative publicity, and a lot of people telling ISP's they'll leave if they let Phorm have access to their data, i'm hoping ISP's leave well alone.

 

[Binky the Bomb]

If telecom companies want to use Phorm, thats fine. The revinue generated can pay for my broadband connection, and upgrade to a 20mb line.

Of course, their not going to, so they can get stuffed.

Hackers of the world unite, and piss on their parade.

 

[nath]

Hackers of the world unite

HACK THE PLANETTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!

 

[soze]

This is like the post office opening all my post to profile it so the can send me advertising on what i like?? That has to be wrong and illegal.