Paypal

[adams901]

are a bunch of *****

I have been selling old memory I have on ebay, I know it all works as it has been tested before.

Some stupid fuckwit of a woman buys some from me, 2 days later I get a message from her telling me she wants a full refund, and that she also wants me to pay for her to return it to me... as if thats going to happen.

I ask why she wants a refund, she tells me, it was DOA, it was poorly package and it was wrapped up in the receipt, plus she claims to have tested it in multiple machines.... I point out to her, it was wrapped in anti static packaging, then wrapped int he receipt and then placed into a padded envelope.

now as this memory is ECC and Registered I know a few people will fall into the trap of not knowing it wont work on certain motherboards.

I respond to her asking what model and makes of motherboard she tested it in, and that I would be willing to refund the memory minus postage and packaging.

She then replied again asking for a full refund blah blah blah, so again I ask for motherboard make and model and tell her I will not lose money by refunding postage and packaging because of her mistake.

Next thing I know there is a paypal dispute opened, so I tell paypal the same thing, the memory is fine, she probally ordered it in error, and that I was/am willing to refund her minus postage and package.

Paypal then respond and tell me I have to refund her in full including P&P.

What the fuck? so I have to lose money because some dumb bitch bought a product in error? even shops dont refund P&P.

Is there anything I can do? I have opened a complaint against payal and told them I will be seeking advice on how to proceed... freddyshouse is probally the only place I will actually go to, although i may visit citizens advice...

Sure its only £3 but its the principle of it all, why should i lose money over it.

 

[Arnie 2Tone]

Paypal are the devil. Unfortunately, I'm forced to deal with them on a regular basis. If Paypal automatically refund the payment, you can argue the toss over the phone, but I warn you now, the last time I had to phone paypal they put me in a queue for 40 minutes. Forty minutes of a 25 second loop of an Enya song. Clearly a crude attempt to get me to hang up. If you get through, mention that you're tempted to call the financial ombudsman and there's a good chance that they'll offer you some "courtesy credit" to cover your loss. It's their way of saying that they're in the wrong but are never going to admit it.

Best bet is to give the whiny cow a partial refund to cover her postage and tell her you'll send the rest when you get your item back. Partial refunds really seem to screw the paypal claims system up in favour of the seller. Been shafted by a couple unscrupulous sellers that way. You can then decide whether or not to give her any more money back. Chances are that she's gonna give you negative feedback whatever happens...

 

[ECA]

Paypal and ebay are utter *****.
Stopped using both unless absolutely necessery ( paypal ).

 

[Sar]

The DSR's state that shops have to refund P&P costs for goods bought online (although not all do), so I'd assume, unfortunately, that the same applies here.

Even if she is dumb as a brick.

 

[Ch3tan]

He's not a shop, he is a private seller though.

 

[Sar]

Don't think it matters tbh with eBay, to them (and by extension Paypal as they're the same company) everyone's "a shop/seller".

Different probably on somewhere like Gumtree though, where it's basically glorified classified ads.

 

[adams901]

This is what paypal sent me...

We have determined that the buyer, ********, is eligible for a full
refund (including postage and packing associated with the purchase) for
this transaction.

To receive this refund, the buyer must return the item to you in the same
condition as it was received. The buyer is responsible for the cost of
returning the item to you.

You have provided the following postal address:

Whats the bets that if it turns up broken paypal will still issue the refund.

I read on the ebay forums that some guy sold a fishing rod, the buyer left positive feedback saying how great it was, then went and broke it... he then filed a dispute saying the item was not as described and won.

Paypal refunded the money from the sellers account, and the seller ended up out of pocket and with a broken rod than no one could use.

 

[ECA]

Why do you think legitimate companies are abandoning ebay and it's just becoming a scammers haven.

 

[Mabs]

when you get it back , claims its broken so you dont have to refund it ?

 

[Kryten]

The very same reason my simple memory sales turned into large pages of text, with lots of big bold disclaimers.

I had to put in things like:

1. Don't trust single sites to tell if you if the memory is compatible with your system: especially Crucial.
2. If you want to know if it's compatible, ask me, but there's no guarantee.
3. ECC ram is only really used in high end workstations and some servers, as is BUFFERED/REGISTERED memory. Please make sure this is definitely what you want.
4. Just because this is the same specification as what you took out doesn't mean it's compatible. Just ask me.
5. I do NOT refund or replace for items bought in error - these have all been tested for 8 hours with Memtest and *do work without failure*.

Annoyed the hell out of me but it covered my back with 3 identical paypal claims "It didn't work". As soon as PP saw the above text in the listing onus was shifted to the buyer. It's getting to the point where you really really must list every eventuality in your listings, which is fucking sickening.


"This memory will not work when placed between the buttocks of any mammal."
"This memory is not compatible with your Ford Mondeo"
"This memory is not a suitable replacement for your "Kiss Me Quick" hat"
etc :/

 

[TdC]

*this memory has special shielding, so if you tape it to your chihuahua and microwave it the dog will be perfectly safe*

 

[old.user4556]

"This memory will not work when placed between the buttocks of any mammal."

Well I put it between Trem's buttocks and it worked.

I still want my REFUND K THX.

 

[adams901]

paypal really are script reading robots... Gee thanks for telling me what I already know

Can you please point out in what way my item is not as described? if you
like the buyer can send the item to you, and you will see it is exactly as
described on my ebay listing.

I even included the part number for the item (which is clearly printed on
the item), if thats not attention to detail then I guess anything purchased
via ebay and payed for by paypal can be classed as 'not as described'.

I really would like a proper answer to this as it is paypal who have deemed
the item is 'not-as-described' when as already mentioned, the item couldn't
be anymore perfectly described via my listing.

I await your reply.

Regards
Adam Shaw


----- Original Message -----
From: <webform@paypal.co.uk>
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Disputes (Routing Code: )



Dear Adam Shaw,

Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to case ID.

PayPal reserves the right to determine what constitutes 'significantly
not-as-described', if buyers and sellers cannot reach an amicable
settlement.


We have asked the buyer to return the item to you in order to receive a
full refund regarding case. We have also asked the buyer to
send us the tracking information for the item. If they don't send us this
information within 10 calendar days, the claim may be closed in your
favour. If you'd like to follow the progress of this case, please click the
'Resolution Centre' sub tab located on the Account Overview page of your
PayPal account.

We appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter, and
wish you continued success on PayPal.

Sincerely,
Judita
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

Copyright © 1999-2009 PayPal. All rights reserved. PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l.
& Cie, S.C.A. Société en Commandite par Actions. Registered Office: 5th
Floor, 22-24 Boulevard Royal, L-2449, Luxembourg, RCS Luxembourg B 118 349

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Form Message
customer subject: Unhappy at poor decision relating to

customer message: Additional Information: '

Dear Sir/Madam,

I do not see why I should have to lose money by refunding postage and
packaging on an Item the buyer bought in error, what happened to seller protection?

I had no issues refunding the the product, but I am not paying for someone elses mistake.

Even shops (which I am not) do not refund postage and package costs on items when purchased in error.

The buyer should have checked to make sure the product was suitable for their use (which they obviously did not do.

I would appreciate a human response to this as I am extremely unhappy and am thinking of taking this further.

Regards

I think it depends who you get reviewing your case, you have the basic script reading monkeys who dont really care whats going on and just flip a coin, then you obviously get others who actually know what they are doing.... i seem to have be assigned a monkey.

 

[Kryten]

Keep fighting them for it, they are indeed as you describe, script reading robots. State in the subject this must be read and dealt with by a human or you will take matters further. Just out of principal

 

[adams901]

all this work for £3 (P&P) lol... but I do like a good argument.

 

[Arnie 2Tone]

Discovered today 2 x £30 payments to O2 prepay from my business bank account. Guess which company is the only company other than HSBC to have all the information you'd need to get an automated top-up on my dime...

 

[Bahumat]

Discovered today 2 x £30 payments to O2 prepay from my business bank account. Guess which company is the only company other than HSBC to have all the information you'd need to get an automated top-up on my dime...

Well I would not not say Bahumat INC is a fully fledged company, more of a one man band really

On reading this thread it annoys how fucking robot idiots dont seem to even read you emails. I wish they treated things 'case by case' and not 'quick find the automated response for their email'.

 

[Arnie 2Tone]

I once sent Paypal an email telling them that none of the available options available on their automated dispute resolution page applied to my particular issue. Their reply came in the form of a copy-pasted page from their online help pages outlining the options available on the automated dispute resolution page. When I wrote back to point out that their response was of absolutely no help and that my original email made it absolutely clear that none of the available options was appropriate (and that I'd already read the help page they directed me to before I resorted to emailing them), they replied with exactly the same bowl of steaming hot copy-pasta again

 

[adams901]

oh my good fucking god, they really are a joke.

Ok this is gonna be long, but may be an amusing read for some of you, specially as they are totally ignoring my emails, and replying with different variations of the same shit.

I have bolded the bits where they change their story.

email 1, their email to me with their dispute decision

We have determined that the buyer, PC Friendly, is eligible for a full
refund (including postage and packing associated with the purchase) for
this transaction.

To receive this refund, the buyer must return the item to you in the same
condition as it was received. The buyer is responsible for the cost of
returning the item to you.

email 2, My email to them regarding the dispute

I see, so I am expected to lose money (postage and packaging) because a
buyer didn't check if the item was suitable for their use?

I shall be checking with citizens advice and trading standards in regards to
this as even shops (which I am not) do not refund postage and packaging on
items purchased in error.

email 3, their reply

Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to case ID PP-637-054-***.

PayPal reserves the right to determine what constitutes 'significantly
not-as-described', if buyers and sellers cannot reach an amicable
settlement.


We have asked the buyer to return the item to you in order to receive a
full refund regarding case PP-637-054-***. We have also asked the buyer to
send us the tracking information for the item. If they don't send us this
information within 10 calendar days, the claim may be closed in your
favour. If you'd like to follow the progress of this case, please click the
'Resolution Centre' sub tab located on the Account Overview page of your
PayPal account.

We appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter, and
wish you continued success on PayPal.

email 4, my reply

Can you please point out in what way my item is not as described? if you
like the buyer can send the item to you, and you will see it is exactly as
described on my ebay listing.

I even included the part number for the item (which is clearly printed on
the item), if thats not attention to detail then I guess anything purchased
via ebay and payed for by paypal can be classed as 'not as described'.

I really would like a proper answer to this as it is paypal who have deemed
the item is 'not-as-described' when as already mentioned, the item couldn't
be anymore perfectly described via my listing.

I await your reply.

email 5, their reply

Thank you for contacting us in relation to the status of your Buyer
Complaint PP-637-054-***.

I am very sorry to hear that you are unhappy with the outcome of the case,
and would like to assure you that the buyer is responsible for covering the
cost of returning the item you you with online tracking proving successful
delivery back to you. If they fail to provide the tracking information to
us, they will not be eligible for a refund. Please also be aware that
should you receive an incorrect item in return, or should you receive your
item back missing parts originally sent, you may of course appeal the
outcome of the case.

As it stands, the item they received was indeed the correct item and the
item which the buyer wished to purchase, and the case was thus found in
their favour as they received this item damaged.

Please let me know if you need any further assistance in this matter.

email 6, my reply

but the item was not damaged, it just isn't compatible with their computer.

If they had read their computer manual they would have known that their
computer was unable to use that type of memory, I even asked what computer
they tried it in, but they refused to tell me.

Once again, the Item is not damaged.

email 7, their reply

Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to case ID PP-637-054-***.

I realise that you may not be entirely satisfied with the way your dispute
has been handled. The buyer complaint process is an arbitration service
offered by PayPal to help resolve disagreements between buyers and sellers
but as you can imagine it is extremely difficult for us to reach a decision
which satisfies all parties.

While I’m sure it may feel otherwise at times our Protection Services
department deal with all cases objectively and with the intention of making
a fair decision based on what verifiable information is available at the
time. The Buyer Complaint Policy provides a framework which ensures all our
customers are dealt with equally.

Ultimately no such policy is an adequate substitute for a constructive
dialogue between you and the other person. I would suggest this remains
your best option for a satisfactory outcome.

We appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter, and
wish you continued success on PayPal.

Please let me know if you need further assistance.

email 9, my reply

But the item was not damaged, it just isn't compatible with their computer.

If they had read their computer manual they would have known that their
computer was unable to use that type of memory, I even asked what computer
they tried it in, but they refused to tell me.

Once again, the Item is not damaged.

I really am starting to get the impression paypal and ebay support
unscrupulus buyers who are out to cause nothing but issues for sellers, It
really is no wonder big sellers are leaving paypal and ebay when there is no
protection against lies and ill iniformed buyers.

email 10, their reply

Thank you for contacting us in relation to the status of your Buyer
Complaint PP-637-054-***.

I realise that you may not be entirely satisfied with the way your dispute
has been handled. The buyer complaint process is an arbitration service
offered by PayPal to help resolve disagreements between buyers and sellers
but as you can imagine it is extremely difficult for us to reach a decision
which satisfies all parties.

While I?m sure it may feel otherwise at times our Protection Services
department deal with all cases objectively and with the intention of making
a fair decision based on what verifiable information is available at the
time. The Buyer Complaint Policy provides a framework which ensures all our
customers are dealt with equally.

If we grant a claim to a buyer, the seller is liable in the same way as the
Buyer Complaint Process and is responsible for reimbursing PayPal for the
amount refunded to the buyer. This could mean that the seller's PayPal
account balance may go negative. In addition, PayPal account access can be
limited until PayPal is reimbursed for the full amount of the refund. We
recommend keeping sufficient funds to cover the refund to avoid a negative
PayPal balance.

Decisions are final. Once PayPal has closed a claim, it cannot be reopened.

email 11, my reply

well it looks to me that no attempt has been made to make both parties
happy.

I am assuming no one has actually looked at the communication between the
buyer and myself, as if they had, they would have seen my handling of this
in a professional manner and asking the buyer for certain details.

I had no issue with refunding the cost of the memory, I have issues with the
fact that I payed for the postage and package, and am expected to refund
that as well.... will the post office refund my money because the item was
not wanted by the buyer? I think not.

email 11, their reply (hmm ive seen this reply before).

Thank you for contacting us in relation to the status of your Buyer
Complaint PP-637-054-***.

I realise that you may not be entirely satisfied with the way your dispute
has been handled. The buyer complaint process is an arbitration service
offered by PayPal to help resolve disagreements between buyers and sellers
but as you can imagine it is extremely difficult for us to reach a decision
which satisfies all parties.

While I?m sure it may feel otherwise at times our Protection Services
department deal with all cases objectively and with the intention of making
a fair decision based on what verifiable information is available at the
time. The Buyer Complaint Policy provides a framework which ensures all our
customers are dealt with equally.

If we grant a claim to a buyer, the seller is liable in the same way as the
Buyer Complaint Process and is responsible for reimbursing PayPal for the
amount refunded to the buyer. This could mean that the seller's PayPal
account balance may go negative. In addition, PayPal account access can be
limited until PayPal is reimbursed for the full amount of the refund. We
recommend keeping sufficient funds to cover the refund to avoid a negative
PayPal balance.

Decisions are final. Once PayPal has closed a claim, it cannot be reopened.

To learn the specific terms and conditions of PayPal Buyer Protection,
simply click "Legal Agreements" located at the bottom of any PayPal
webpage.

Ultimately no such policy is an adequate substitute for a constructive
dialogue between you and the other person. I would suggest this remains
your best option for a satisfactory outcome.

We appreciate your patience and understanding regarding this matter, and
wish you continued success on PayPal.

Please let me know if you need further assistance.

email 12, my reply

Well I can see this is going no where, all you lot seem to do is copy and
paste pre written scripts, I would like this escalated to management
please so I can get a real answer.

Getting an answer that isn't pre-scripted from PayPal is next to impossible, not to mention the fact every single email I have sent has had its key points ignored.

Further more, if this refund is NOT related to the Item 'not being as
described', why is this the reason listed by PayPal on the disputes page?

Pay pay really needs to stop contradicting itself, it lists the reason for
the refund as "not as described", when I point out the item is as described
I get a scripted reply telling me the reason is because it was DOA, when I
point out it is not DOA and that it is infact not compatible with the buyers
hardware (which is the buyers error not mine), I get another scripted reply
that actually has nothing to do with the email I sent.

email 13, their reply

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

We have asked the buyer to return the item to you in order to receive a
full refund regarding case PP-637-054-***. We have also asked the buyer to
send us the tracking information for the item. If they don't send us this
information within 10 calendar days, the claim may be closed in your
favour. If you'd like to follow the progress of this case, please click the
'Resolution Centre' sub tab located on the Account Overview page of your
PayPal account.

Thank you for using PayPal for your online payment needs.

 

[nath]

Lol, that's fucking insane. I think if I were in your shoes my head would have exploded by now. Absolutely infuriating.

 

[Mey]

Shame you can't leave negative feedback on the buyer telling the world what a retard they are.

 

[GReaper]

Shame you can't leave negative feedback for Paypal tbh.

UWFUL EBAYER! - would not recommend!! - NOT an A++++++ buyer! -- AVOID AT ALL COSTS

 

[Kryten]

If I had the chance I'd have used the above communication to take things further and see how far it could/would go exactly. Bad financial practice, almost certainly antitrust issues. Someone really really needs to take on PayPal and win.

 

[Cadelin]

What would happen if you found out that item had been damaged upon its return to you? Obviously there is a chance that the item is returned in good condition. If it was returned damage could you claim your cash back from Paypal?

 

[Ctuchik]

Shame you can't leave negative feedback for Paypal tbh.

UWFUL EBAYER! - would not recommend!! - NOT an A++++++ buyer! -- AVOID AT ALL COSTS

lol, that A+++++++ made me remember a PM i got from a seller i bougt some stuff from, he was pretty pissed off at me because i only wrote A+, and not A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


does more + make the seller/buyer cooler?

 

[Tom]

Can't say I've ever had a problem with Paypal - in fact I use it to buy stuff from loads of websites, not just Ebay.

When selling on Ebay I try to be very specific about everything - so even minor scratches get a mention. If something doesn't work quite correctly, I'll write why, and not try to cover things up.

I appreciate you did this with the memory but you have to treat the buyer as though they're stupid - which in this case they clearly are

 

[adams901]

Hello,

I have Just checked the Tracking Code provided and it would appear to be
incorrect.

The tracking code indicated the item has been accepted by someone in
Portsmouth, as I am in London this clearly is not the correct tracking code,
and is just verifying what I have been saying via email to you lot for the
last 6 days.

The Buyer is a liar and is even trying to trick you into issuing a refund.

I look forward to your impersonal script related, copy and paste reply.

Regards
Adam

----- Original Message -----
From: <service@paypal.co.uk>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 1:49 PM
Subject: Status of case no. PP-637-054-***


>
> We are in the process of investigating the following claim:
>
>
> Buyer's Name:
> Buyer's Email:
>
> Transaction Date:
> Transaction Amount: -26.55 GBP
> Case Number: PP-637-054-673
>
> Refund Amount: 26.55 GBP
>
>
>
> PayPal has received online tracking information for the return of your
> item(s):
>
> Tracking Company: Royal Mail
> Tracking Number: DV649599572GB
>
> You can resolve this case faster by logging in and indicating that you
> have
> received the returned item. This will release the refund to the buyer
> automatically. If you do not report the item returned, PayPal will verify
> the tracking information and release the refund for you with no penalty.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Protection Services Department

 

[Uara]

lol, that is one major fuck-up!!

 

[Kryten]

All the more reason to do something more about it then. Phone them up. Write to them. Speak to trading standards.

 

[taB]

Good luck Adams. I'd be pulling hair out by now.