paying vs downloading

[Blackjack]

So, i was having a little discussion with a friend on MSN. It all started with me mentioning i went out and spend 40£ on Broken Sword 4, The Angel of Death. (Yay :worthy: )

She went on about how i should just have downloaded. I said no. The Broken Sword people have brought me 3 excellent games and i have high hopes for number 4. I'll support them and pay them for their effort.

She said she never bought games because the prices were too high. And they should just lower the prices then people would buy. But studdies show the most people wont buy even then. Because.. hey they get it for free now.

i tried to make the point that. Effort and skill usually equals result. Effort also equals time, and time is money. Ergo your money for a good result. And even though i could use the 40£ in my account. I will pay them for taking the time to make something good for me.

If people just keep stealing games/music and films. Their simply wont be enough money in it to keep going. And it's the gamers that suffer in the end.

So, am i completely naive or do the game makers actually do suffer quite abit under pirating?

(This is not a thread about me paying too much, too soon, too green or with coins)

 

[Mabs]

downloaded a few things over the years, end of the day, if its any good, i go and buy it, if its not, i bin it.
yes, they are too expensive
no, lowering the price WOULD make more people buy them - odd how the people charging more claim charging less wont work.. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

varies a bit on dev aswell for me. little people (see the DEFCON post) for example, ill buy it on spec if it looks interesting. if its EA or whatnot, ill prob DL it first, try it, then decide - noone will convince me that they are going to starve without my 30 quid

yes, effort and skill deserves a reward. no, that doesnt mean you should have to pay ANOTHER fourty quid for world-league-championship-hocky-manager wtf-ever we-changed-2-teams-and-put-in-new-music type liscenced crap with this years number tacked on the end

people stealing films will stop them making them ? um ... no. they can afford to pay actors that much, they can fuck off with their sanctimonius crap. DVDs are nearly 20 quid.. whose stealing from who ?

 

[Blackjack]

Something something


noone will convince me that they are going to starve without my 30 quid

They are not claiming, it was an actual surveys asking people if they would buy if it was cheaper.

the problem is 2.000.000 people also say "noone will convince me that they are going to starve without my 30 quid" and boom thats 60.000.000£

And yes they spend a LOT of money on actors and CGI and sets for movies. So we don't have to see a man in a monkey suit anymore and those money has to be made from the people watching the movie. Either watching it in a theatre, buying the DvD, or even renting it.

 

[Chronictank]

They are not claiming, it was an actual surveys asking people if they would buy if it was cheaper.

the problem is 2.000.000 people also say "noone will convince me that they are going to starve without my 30 quid" and boom thats 60.000.000£

And yes they spend a LOT of money on actors and CGI and sets for movies. So we don't have to see a man in a monkey suit anymore and those money has to be made from the people watching the movie. Either watching it in a theatre, buying the DvD, or even renting it.

simple reason,
what do i get what i cant get from a download?
answer is... nothing
If companies would concentrate the rescources on creating products you would actually want to buy rather than a plastic disc and a poor manual (compare manuals nowdays to say the early PC days).
There are very simple ways of inticing users, cover art for example, design samples, however more influencial things such as Multiplay restricted to authentic CD keys all make it a worthwhile purchase. problem being most of us cant afford to pay and "try" games as they are far too expensive, so you would rather it was money well spent than down the drain. If it was only £10 they would find people are more willing to try them off the shelf, i know i would

 

[GReaper]

Are you assuming that every downloaded copy is a lost sale? Theres probably a large majority of people who are unlikely to buy the product in the first place. Using an example of your Broken Sword game, I would be highly unlikely to buy it, downloading it may give me a few hours entertainment.

If something is worth buying then I'll pay for it. However the only 3 games (and their expansions) I've bought over the past few years are DAoC, WoW and Tribes! Make the games slightly awkward for casual piracy, but not too evil so that only your customers get annoyed with the copy protection!

 

[Pirkel]

Agree with some points Chronic but I disagree with others you make.

I agree that companies should entice people to buy the box by adding goodies. I remember Ultima games always had gadgets in them and I couldn't wait to get them even before I saw a single screenshot for the game . The CD keys for online play is another good example.

However saying that you need to download a torrent of a game because you can't afford to try it by buying it is a bit off. Most if not all games release demo versions nowadays that will give you enough of a taste to let you know if you want it or not.

Making games cheaper will solve almost nothing. What you're looking at is input and output. A company puts a lot of money into a game and in order to earn that back the game is worth a certain amount of money. Say you spend 1.000.000 on developing a game and the box costs 50,-. That simply means you have to sell 20000 boxes to earn it all back. Say 22000 people buy it the company makes 100000 profit!

Now following your line of thought.. make the game a lot cheaper! So now the box for the same game is 10,-. Your plan works superduper well and 4 times the amount of people buy the game (making it 88000). However 88000 x 10,- is 880000... so now the company loses 120000...

It simply isn't as simple as making games cheaper... and just because we can download games from the intarweb doesn't make it right in any way. If you think a game is not worth the money then... don't buy it, don't play it.

No matter what you say there is no realistic justification to "steal" from the developers of a game.

Ok I'll get off my high horse now... I'm not saying I never downloaded a game without paying for it... I'm just not trying to weasel my way out of it

 

[~Latency~]

only buy ifg u realy enjoy it or onlllly download if it is ok game but great

 

[Blackjack]

Using an example of your Broken Sword game, I would be highly unlikely to buy it, downloading it may give me a few hours entertainment.

Allow me to make a slightly extreme comparison.
You are on your way home, you are bored and kind of horny. You say to yourself "Ahh well, didn't manage to score tonight. I'll grab a hooker." As you walk down your local red light district, you see a prostitute, alone. It's not really what you wanted, but you'll give it a try. You wont pay, so you rape her. Figuring it's ok since she wasn't something you really wanted but you needed a few minutes of fun.
So now you used her services for free. But because you didn't really want it, you shouldn't have to pay right? i mean you wouldn't have bought her if that was the only way.

 

[Yeke]

Games I rarely buy cant seem too find a way of conceiling the fact ive spent a stupid ammount of money on a game ill play for a few days and never touch again from the missus :< exceptions are obvious multi player games that cant be played unless bought also they hold your interest longer so dont feel robbed when you complete them in a day.

Films practically never go to the cinema as its a fucking rip off, DVD's hardly ever buy them I'm not someone that watches films over and over again so whats the point, I download them watch them then bin them.

music nothing worth paying for or wasting bandwidth on nowadays anyway, but certainly wouldn't pay the stupid prices they ask for an album now.

All in all if prices on some things were lower I'd perhapse be more likely too buy something I wanted rather than download it.

 

[Tasslehoff]

I'm with Blackjack on this one, downloading games is totaly bollocks. Even though it's EA games or whatever, they've had developers that had used a huge amount of time on making this product, and then you just go out and copy it, without giving them anything?
And Chronic, what do you get in a store, that you wouldn't get from stealing?
Nothing..

 

[Thorwyn]

She said she never bought games because the prices were too high. And they should just lower the prices then people would buy.

This argument keeps pissing me off.

First off, does she even have the slightest clue about the production prices of contemporary games? Hello? It´s 2006! Games are no longer produced by two nerds with greasy hairs sitting in the garage. It´s a multi million dollar process and that´s only partially the actual team. External artists (to make those fancy intro-extro movies and trailers.. because if a game doesn´t have those standards, then it´s automatically shit. Games are so complex these days that it takes years to produce one. How the HELL can some guy/gal who obviously don´t/doesn´t even have a clue about the process of making a game make assumptions about the prices being too high or not?

Now, for sake of the argument, let´s assume she´s right and the prices for all games are too high. What´s the consequence? Copy and get it for free, or.. you know.. maybe DON´T BUY IT?! What kind of self justification and hipocrisy is it to state: yeah, this is too expensive for my tastes, I`ll just steal it.
It´s the old argument really, postulating a circumstance (price too high), offering an unrealistical alternative (if they would be cheaper, I`d buy them) and finishing with a consequence (so, I´m forced to copy it).

 

[Jeremiah]

I do kinda feel the prices of games are too high. I mean, it wasnt too long ago that the price of a new release PC game was £30. In a few years this has went up to £35-£40. Now I know we get flashier graphics, but really that is the only really improvement from days of yonder. Voice overs are nothing new, plots are nothing new and most still suffer from low playability - after a few weeks, you never touch it again.

Rather than looking at it from the developers cost point of view, I would look at it from the consumers cost point of view. Take the film industry. No matter how much a film costs to make, they all cost the same price for people to go watch it. Now I know that its because the film industry uses a middleman in the shape of a cinema for people to watch the film, but producers would know that the only way to get a good return on the money spent is for the films to be worth watching. In my opinon, that is how it should be with games. Lets have a fixed price right accross all formats for new releases that is affordable to everyone - say even up to £30. Great games make their money back 10 fold, crap games break even and the developers learn to make it better next time... everybody wins!

Oh, but I dont agree with downloading games. If you cant afford it, dont get it.

 

[Raven]

if the game/film/album is good i will buy it, if its lazy (or made by EA) i will DL it.

not going to pay £40 for a game i will play for maybe 4 hours. i do believe that the decent games makers deserve my money for a game, i dont think shit companies do.

As for music, i buy quite a few albums from bands i like but these days most albums only have a ocuple of good songs on the rest is just padding, not going to pay £10-£15 for rubbish.

I always DL TV shows as i refuse to wait for it to come on TV at some inconvenient time and it pisses me off that it gets interupted by adverts. Would much ratehr see it when it comes out in the US.

 

[Bugz]

Pirating is bad and wrong.

For music, the regulations etc. are quite wide-spaced in the idea that you can share licensed one and you are (i think) emitted use of them for 24 hours on your computer.

But for games, people have invested money into a product. You are stealing from them. It's almost like me going into your IT Shop and stealing a computer. It doesn't do a lot of damage but it will tick you off and it will effect your overall income.

Games are slightly too-expensive also but to be honest you have SO many different options open rather than breaking the law:

Ebay
Amazon
Online
Store
Pre-owned

That's five I thought up in seconds.

 

[Gamah]

TBH effort = reward, I have pirated things in the past, but now I just dont bother.

FOr my music rather have a quality 320kbps mp3 than a shabbly ripped 192kbps so I pay for it. For games I buy things online because I always want to play the multiplayer part.

 

[haarewin]

always buy dvd's. always buy cd's or download legally. if i want a game, i'll buy it.
there are situations where its slightly harder for me to support the artists i like (as yesasia take forever to process paypal orders and i dont have a credit card), but i still do my best to.

 

[tris-]

So now you used her services for free. But because you didn't really want it, you shouldn't have to pay right? i mean you wouldn't have bought her if that was the only way.

rofl, the way you can even compare the ethics and morals behind rape and piracy, THEN come to a conclusion they are similar is really quite amazing.

 

[soze]

I have never downloaded a full game because i can find out what i need to know using the demo. So i download the demo and try it.

Movies are another story i get movies then watch them if i like them i put them on pre order on play if i dont like i will delete them.

Its all about knowing what you are going to get for your money and tbh i thin Sky Box office / blockbusters are too expensive for a film that couls be utter crap.

 

[Succi]

use a decent torrent site gamah 80% of my mp3's are 320bitrate

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yohoo! Over here! No no, BEHIND the donkey!

Ahem, i just wanted to inform all the misleaded people here that the developers never-ever see the sales money.

Only way they do, is by royalties, and those are one helluva bugger to get.

First the producers take the money they gave to the developer, add marketing costs, shipping costs, packeting costs etc. etc. and THEN, if the game makes some profit(doubtful in most cases), the producers might give royalties, depending on the contract, to the developers.

Now, that money goes straight into the "rainy day" cash box, and the people ACTUALLY making the game never see it.

Unless you were making some halo/gta sh*t...lucky bastards...

Thank you.

 

[Tasslehoff]

Yohoo! Over here! No no, BEHIND the donkey!

Ahem, i just wanted to inform all the misleaded people here that the developers never-ever see the sales money.

Only way they do, is by royalties, and those are one helluva bugger to get.

First the producers take the money they gave to the developer, add marketing costs, shipping costs, packeting costs etc. etc. and THEN, if the game makes some profit(doubtful in most cases), the producers might give royalties, depending on the contract, to the developers.

Now, that money goes straight into the "rainy day" cash box, and the people ACTUALLY making the game never see it.

Unless you were making some halo/gta sh*t...lucky bastards...

Thank you.

Maybe not directly, but indirectly they do.
If nobody buys the games, nobody will make the games and there will be no more developers.

 

[Mabs]

one thing i would add to all this is, its been going on for fucking AGES, just changed a bit

how many people borrow DVDs/videos/CDs/Games off a mate watch/play em, give em back. you have had that experience, but paid nothing for it. same thing essentially

 

[old.Tohtori]

Maybe not directly, but indirectly they do.
If nobody buys the games, nobody will make the games and there will be no more developers.

Well then we wouldn't have this discussion now would we? Ridicilous point really.

Just saying that those people downloading, don't harm the developers actually help the developers in a way of fame.

If a million people downloaded Halo 2, and half a million paid for it (which is totally out of proportion) the producers would throw bundles of money at the developer to make another.

 

[Blackjack]

rofl, the way you can even compare the ethics and morals behind rape and piracy, THEN come to a conclusion they are similar is really quite amazing.

I was making an extreme comparison, as i started before i started.
Piracy is nowhere near as bad as rape and i for one think it's pretty obvious that i didn't try to make it out to be that way. The morals and ethics illustrated was not between rape and piracy, but using services without paying. And going to an extreme to get that across 9 out of 10 times works the best. Exaggeration furthers understanding.

 

[Jeremiah]

One way I reckon they could lower the costs is to introduce advertising into the games. I dont mean annoying pop-ups or any other mechanism that would interupt game play but adding it into the background - like in FPS, nothing wrong with a few paid for ads in the form of billboards as you walk down the street - or track side ads in racing games. I know this exists to an extent already, but I would think it would be a nice way off of-setting the costs to the player - more players = more exposure = more money

 

[tris-]

I was making an extreme comparison, as i started before i started.
Piracy is nowhere near as bad as rape and i for one think it's pretty obvious that i didn't try to make it out to be that way. The morals and ethics illustrated was not between rape and piracy, but using services without paying. And going to an extreme to get that across 9 out of 10 times works the best. Exaggeration furthers understanding.

if your going to make a comparrison then the things should at least be comparable.

what you said is like me saying instead of shitting in a toilet youd just shit in someones pocket because you couldnt find a toilet.

both about shitting, but essentially totally different.

 

[Urgluf]

IMO

You download a game to test if its worth to buy.

 

[Gamah]

use a decent torrent site gamah 80% of my mp3's are 320bitrate

can't get my music from torrent sites, if I wanted coldplay or Britney Spears gretest hits I would

 

[Chronictank]

And Chronic, what do you get in a store, that you wouldn't get from stealing?

descent online play in most cases, as i said earlier 1 example of what you buy and cant (easily) download.
If its a good game, i will buy it.
If its not i wont.
Stealing or not i dont have any regrets doing so since £40 for a recycled game (your in the industry you know what im talking about) its daylight robbery too
I mean lets face it, before the whole torrent scene people just went down their local car-boot and bought pirated games anyway if they didnt intend on buying it from a store.
However if its a good game then people who wouldnt have otherwise may buy it
My last 5 games were because i tried a torrent before hand/played them at a friends house

 

[GReaper]

Allow me to make a slightly extreme comparison.
You are on your way home, you are bored and kind of horny. You say to yourself "Ahh well, didn't manage to score tonight. I'll grab a hooker." As you walk down your local red light district, you see a prostitute, alone. It's not really what you wanted, but you'll give it a try. You wont pay, so you rape her. Figuring it's ok since she wasn't something you really wanted but you needed a few minutes of fun.
So now you used her services for free. But because you didn't really want it, you shouldn't have to pay right? i mean you wouldn't have bought her if that was the only way.

An extreme comparison.

What I'm trying to point out is that most people would never buy it in the first place. Instead of paying for the hooker, they'd just go home and do something else instead!