Patching, how is it possible?

[old.Arnor]

I'm just curious of how its possible to use so much time as GOA does on the patches.
Theyve spent a month or so on gettin from 1.45 to 1.48, and theyre not done!
Yeah yeah I know they gotta translate all the text and such, but how can it take so long? And if it DOES take that long, why cant just we(pryd/excal) get the patches directly from Mythic? It's not like they need to translate it from American to English is it?
It just pisses me off so much cuz I _really_ want patch 1.49. Which in the current timer will take like another month when we finally get 1.48!

Grrrrrr

 

[Aeiedil]

i dont know why its taking so long, but i remember the reason goa gave for not upgrading english servers, and thats because it would be unfair to the french\german servers, and mean more people coming to the english servers no matter what language they speak even if the french\german servers were better suited. this would then mean the french\german servers being deserted (my guess), so what would the point in having them

i dont know how much of that was actually said but thats what i seem to remember being implied

 

[Seyrcim]

Well, then they could convert all servers to english

Seriously tho, they DID state that it was the patchserver etc. (which, I, as a programmer) find kinda strange. I don't recall the exact phrasing from the post on the old 'official' forum. But they said that all had to be the same version since all first connect to the patchserver and then decides where to send the player.

That wouldn't be the only reason of course, but anyways, if that IS one of the reasons, it's not very diffivult to see what language/version the client is using. So that for a reason is *really* lame imo.

 

[Aeiedil]

Seyrcim you are missing one of the things that GOA is trying to achieve, and one part of that i think is DAoC in a language for those that don't speak english as a native language, or atall for that matter, and if you take this away then thats one more thing they will get flamed for. give them the chance to work through the babelfish translations

 

[Addlcove]

babelfish indeed
in 1.36 I got an ornamental necklace in keltoi crapt loot

now they are called Oranamental necklace..... I mean come on, it is obvious that they need to get new translaters

 

[old.J.S.]

Anyone got any idea at all when the new patch is coming out?It sure is taking a lot of time for just translation.....I have a shadowblade and cant wait for the new changes....

 

[old.Yomar]

Comments from a translator

Professional translator here... I've written this on the old forums already, but I guess it can't hurt to write it once more. See www.akebono.nl for my credits

An average translator or software localizer (software localization is, in most cases, just an expensive word for software translation) can translate at least 2000 words per day. I'm currently doing 4000 a day and can do 8000 words per day if I really want to and feel like it.

For those of you who have no idea what 2000 words is like: it's as much as 6 to 7 A4's.

Software localization is very different from translation, but I think I have a right to speak since I'm a professional software localizer. As a matter of fact I'm currently translating a complete enterprise database package. This is a big package, prolly much bigger than DAOC in it's current state. The package resources contain 50.000 words. This will normally take me (just one translator) 25 working days. If I try hard, 12 working days. If I try really hard, just 6 working days. This includes checks on concistency, grammar, spelling, etcetera.

Path 1.45 was implemented on March 27th. Since then, 27 working days (excluding weekends) have passed. Assuming that:

1. Every language is just translated by one translator (which ain't much)
2. This translator has no other projects planned

(based on experience I can say that the above is pretty much a worst-case scenario)...

Patch 1.48 implements at least 27 x 2000 = 54000 *new* words.

That's more than the entire enterprise database software package I'm currently working on (excluding the manual - but DAOC has no manual translations).

I will not mention how much time can be saved by using professional CAT (Computer Assisted Translation) tools, which are much more professional than your average Babelfish translation goodie. I estimate that at least 10% of the new translations can be matched from a database containing all translations that have been done until patch 1.45. This is a realistic estimate.

Assuming the translators use a professional CAT tool, which is a must for software localization, I'd say that patch 1.48 should at least implement 54000 + 5400 = say 60.000 new words (say 200 A4's).

Do the maths

I believe the translation thingy is just a poor excuse. I'm not angry at GOA - actually I love the game and I am very satisfied on the overall. But I don't want GOA to give the translation industry a bad rep just because they need an excuse for a poor implementation policy

 

[Seyrcim]

Originally posted by Aeiedil
Seyrcim you are missing one of the things that GOA is trying to achieve ...

No, I am not missing the point, merely stating that the patchserver for a reason is really lame. I don't really care about the patches, I enjoy the game as it is, mostly anyway

@Yomar: I dunno, but from what I have heard from German/French players a lot of the translations sux really bad. So my guess would be that they hardly employ professional translators, nor any CAT software for that matter (common, prove me wrong Please!). I really think it ought to be in GOAs interest to getting us paying customers some info. For most part we are walking around in the dark maybe getting an anouncement every two to three weeks. Let's just hope that the 'new' news tool will keep us a bit more posted

 

[old.Yomar]

Seyr:

Unfortunately there are more bad translators than good translators. The problem is that everybody can call himself/herself a translator.

A good translation is a translation that reads like an original, without the reader ever wondering whether the document is a translation or not.

Too many translators make the mistake of translating far too literally, instead of trying to convey the same idea or thought behind the original. Not to mention the enormous amount of translators who can't even spell or people who think they can translate to anything that is not their mother tongue. Ah, and let's not forget specialized fields like games.

I still remember the Dutch translation of "Turn Undead" in an RPG. The translation rendered to something like "Turn zombie upside down".

 

[Aeiedil]

i think another problem i remember being mentioned is that the translations have to fit within a specific number of characters or something like that, cant remember exactly, but sommit like that im sure, which cant help

 

[old.Iunliten]

we whined about it on old forum
whining about it here won't make difference

If you have anycomplain about goa send it to /dev/null on goa's mail server and they will look into it right away.

 

[old.Yomar]

Aeiedil:

Good CAT tools warn for string truncations on the fly

 

[Alrindel]

The Ranger says, "We're are under siege! Lay waste to those that would destroy Hibernia!

Pity GOA can't spend a bit of time translating Mythic into English while they're doing the French and German...

 

[m-a-n-t-i-s]

Dont forget they also have to chop out all the customer support functions

Then when they need to put them back in and the patch takes ages it will be another excuse

 

[Alrindel]

I don't think they have chopped out the customer support functions, have they? I mean, you can still type /appeal and it works... it's just that there's no-one at the other end to pick up the phone. I remember seeing several posts on the old forums by people who were used to using /appeal on the US servers complaining that the european CSRs never answered.

 

[old.Arnor]

Unfair schmunfair. The thing im really wondering about is why we normal ppl (that like english) have to be punished by waiting AGES, and I mean bloody ages for a single new patch to come out, just because they feel like it would be unfair to give it to us first and then translate it?
I think that the ppl who play on german/french servers play there b'cause they got friends there and they all feel like talking and seeing their native tongue. If they wanna move to the english servers that's their problem.


The reason im writing this is b'cause im really pissed of at how its gonna take farkin ages to get to 1.49 where all the goodies are
(DF, rp group bonus, more xp from lvl 30-50, 20% xp bonus in dungeons and epic-armour)
So its damn annoying knowing that we'll not see 1.49 until like MINIMUM 2months or so, which is a damn long wait.

Grrrr.....So pissed of right now....

 

[old.Xarr]

Amen brotha! flame on!

hehe, seriously tho.. something is amiss. And I doubt very much that there are about 54,000 words to translate from 1.45-48. Like Yomar said, that's more than a frickin' manual.

All this delay is another thing, the one thing that bothers me THE MOST is the complete lack of response from the GOA Team. Mythic has a PR person that gives the community info back every friday just to show the community that they are there. I mean, that can't be very hard to do.

 

[Seyrcim]

Originally posted by Xarr
... I mean, that can't be very hard to do.

Well, really, it's almost the LEAST we can ask for. So amen to that as well

 

[old.Whismerill]

hrm

Maybe because not getting 1.48 right now makes you spending more days on => makes you pay more.


Which is quite obvious nope ?

 

[old.Ninster]

Or maybe their deal with mythics dictate how long they must wait before implementing..

Anywayz to the "not so bright person" that thinks that giving the patches to us on the english servers would be more than fair.

THINK FOR A MOMENT PLZ!

That would completely flood our servers, no doubt about it. I would and im pretty sure the rest of u would to, play on the server with the newest patch, even if it meant higher pingtimes or that i had to play the game in something else than my native language.

Ninster

 

[old.Yomar]

Interesting. GOA says:


For example, let's take an item: all its occurrences must be translated identically in all the files: the item file, but also in the NPC talks file if some NPCs mention it. You also need to make sure that the monsters dropping the item are named correctly, or you can end up, after translation, with a 'bandit ear', dropped by a 'brigand' while a quest asks for a 'cutpurse ear' (in German or French of course).


This is what we translators call consistency. Every CAT tool does this on the fly for you. It does not explain the delay, it really doesn't

Suppose you translate the string called "bandit ear" to German. The result is [German translation of "bandit ear"]. The CAT tool memorizes this automatically (if the string is part of a bigger string, then it's custom to basically add all noun combinations and nouns to your terminology database), adding it to the terminology database. Once the word group "bandit ear" pops up 2 days later in an entirely different string, the CAT tool will see this and automatically display the translation used until now in a separate window. Click the translation and voila - it's automatically added in the translation of the new string. In some cases, you don't even need to click anymore - when the CAT tool sees that there's only one possibility for word order and inserts the used translation automatically.

GOA, head to www.atril.com to see what this software can do for you The first month of usage is for free.

 

[old.Iunliten]

Originally posted by Ninster
Or maybe their deal with mythics dictate how long they must wait before implementing..

Anywayz to the "not so bright person" that thinks that giving the patches to us on the english servers would be more than fair.

THINK FOR A MOMENT PLZ!

That would completely flood our servers, no doubt about it. I would and im pretty sure the rest of u would to, play on the server with the newest patch, even if it meant higher pingtimes or that i had to play the game in something else than my native language.

Ninster

By your reasoning we would all play one american servers but we know so isn't the case.

 

[Jimli]

I was stupid enough to take the 6 months with the discount. If I still like DaoC after this period I will order the american version and move there.

I think the amount of players on the european servers will drop in a month of 4/5.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[cAScADe]

Im pretty sure i read that some where they have to translate the whole database again and not just the parts..
not 100% positive though.

 

[old.Jable]

ramt on...

Goa has a problem. their customer service has been lacking for a while (/appeal for example) and with the removal of the official forums, they become even more anonymous.

they havent noticed and are doing nothing to try to sort this out. we are expected to keep faith throughout and i dont blame anyone for leaving for the us servers. i remember they wouldnt be getting any of the events goa have had planned, but i dont see us getting them either. it says quests designed by gms on the back, by the time they get round to it all my alts will be high level chars.

to be honest i feel that goa has taken on too much. mythic must have been laughing when they took it on. they seem incapable of spending the money required to get the translations done quickly and efficiently enough for us to suffer minimum delay (no one can say we are getting a minimal delay) and they havent the money or the inclenation to create a decent customer service system. i hope no other online company uses them as a template for their work because that would be a disasterous turn of events for the consumer.

unless mythic stop developing the game, goa are always going to be behind and we are always going to be moaning. i already feel the life expectancy for this game is around six months (and ill be interested to see if goa runs a single unique event before august) and by that time something new will be coming out that will be handled much better.

 

[old.Yomar]

Im pretty sure i read that some where they have to translate the whole database again and not just the parts..
not 100% positive though.

CAT-tools fill these parts in for you automatically, as existing translations are stored in a memory database containing all previous translations. Only translations that need checking after that are those strings that are eligible for more translations (consider the word Track having two meanings: 1 cd track 2 road track).

 

[old.Ozwin]

I just wanted to follow on from Yomars post if . Now this is no reflection of my opinions on GOA/Mythic or the people involved with the translation but i also feel technically qualified to comment on what seems to be puzzling. In my day to day work for a UK based Airline a big chunk of duties is involved with the SAP or enterprise system and patching and CAT or translating of the server updates most of which we get from India. As Yomar says it is a time consuming job but im still a little confused and how mythic can release from scratch updates on an almost weekly basis but it is taking an extraordinary long time in this translation.
The wonders of technology

 

[old.Xarr]

GOA has also little or no contact with the userbase at all.. this is not good =/

All I want is some proof of life or something, but noooooo, that's just too hard to do! :sleeping:

(PS: that new post on the euro daoc homepage doesn't really classify as proof of life).

 

[old.Bathory]

I just think it should be illegal to sell an incomplete game....
I cant remember I saw a warning on the game-cover:
"THIS GAME IS STILL A BETA, THE FINAL VERSION IS COMING IN A YEAR OR TWO... u still have 2 pay though"

 

[Avi N'dor]

I'm still so new in DAoC that I can't comment on their patching process or anything but sure I hope they are not taking the route OSI has taken with UO.... I spent 2 years there.
Wanna see how localization ruins the athmosphere of the game? Take a look at UO. We had these japanese texts popping up in english servers and macros messed up with Kanji characters. Nice RPG like descriptions and texts replaced with things like "You see: a bottle" *yawns* it sure has some feeling to it, eh?

Also if you wanna see how dev team does NOT listen to players and makes huge changes and/or nerfs into game that nobody wants? Check UO. Wanna see how the whiners always win? Check UO.

I hope DAoC is not going to the same route because if it is, I'm gone in a blink of an eye.