Pat about faith

[old.Tohtori]

And I am sorry that I debate you Old.Tohtori and keep using Christian examples, but I never had the pleasure of debating someone on Nordic Mythology before, so I have not gone to the trouble of putting myself deeply into it, I have through, a very dear friend who shares your belief.

And don't think I am out solely to convert you, surely I personally belive that would be nice to do, but to be honest, you already sound atheistic to me, as you didn't sound like you actually belived in the God's of your religion nor the afterlife from your religion. Am I correct in assuming that you don't actually belive thunder comes from Thor swinging his hammer from his Chariot pulled by Goats during storms? And in assuming that you don't belive in God to Valhalla and fighting each and every day and feasting each and every night, if one should die in honourably in Combat?

It's ok, i just don't think i'm the best to debate the christian view, as i don't know that much about the bible and ways. I would assume, those bible pieces you use as an example, might be taken out of context and should be converted to modern terms. But, like i said, i'm not the one to discuss another religion.

About me, you couldn't even convert me, so there you are right, it's pointless. Neither am i trying to convert you. Heck, you might be right too, and when death occurs(and i might be proven wrong about my immortality) we will know. I'll try and post on these boards when that happens. Tough, it would be probably the last thing on my mind.

Anyhoo, about valhalla and such. Yes i do, i do believe in the gods(more originally towards finnish gods though), but i also have a really big theory going on which i'm gathering up. It's kind of an omni-religion if you will. Another topic completely.

I don't think in such strict terms, that thor is pulling a chariot, but i do believe that there's due respect to be given and shown towards the force. If i give the force a more corporial form(Ukko is the god of thunder in finnish lore btw), there's nothing wrong in it.

So...how to put it short...i do believe i a multitude of beings higher then us, and i do believe in a "valhalla"(the concept and place might have changed over time) and that i will be let there after death.

But, agian i have to say, it's no more viable or less viable option then simply nothing, which i can't believe in.

A difference between me and Old.Tohtori for instance, besides our viewpoint being different in the first place, would be that he thinks I shouldn't call the bible or any other "holy" books for fairy tales, I prefer not to call them holy, because that just gives belivers of those fairy tales a warm tingly sensation inside and confirms their beliefs, which is not what I want to do when I debate them

Ah, have to correct this. I'm not saying that as such you shouldn't think of them as fairy tales, just that being polite and non-condecending towards other beliefs, is a better way to discuss things and leads to a more pleasent discussion.

Heck, i don't particulary like christians as they killed the old viking ways But, i'm not miffed enough about it to call them something about it, as these believers weren't the ones who made it happen.

Funny enough, in the viking days, equal rights and respect for women existed, christians came, destroyed this lil "pagan" belief and now, whoopie, 1000 or so years later we got this "magnificant movement" to bring back equal rights.

Same thing with gays. Viking ways had no problem with being gay, though they didn't prefer metrosexuals much

Kinda funny.

 

[Iceforge]

It's ok, i just don't think i'm the best to debate the christian view, as i don't know that much about the bible and ways. I would assume, those bible pieces you use as an example, might be taken out of context and should be converted to modern terms. But, like i said, i'm not the one to discuss another religion.

Leviticus 20
1
The LORD said to Moses,
2
"Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. // Molech = God from another religion
3
I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people; for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.
4
Even if his fellow citizens connive at such a man's crime of giving his offspring to Molech, and fail to put him to death,
5
I myself will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who join him in his wanton worship of Molech.
6
Should anyone turn to mediums and fortune-tellers and follow their wanton ways, I will turn against such a one and cut him off from his people.
7
Sanctify yourselves, then, and be holy; for I, the LORD, your God, am holy.
8
Be careful, therefore, to observe what I, the LORD, who make you holy, have prescribed.
9
"Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.
10
If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
11
If a man disgraces his father by lying with his father's wife, both the man and his stepmother shall be put to death; they have forfeited their lives.
12
If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; since they have committed an abhorrent deed, they have forfeited their lives.
13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.
14
If a man marries a woman and her mother also, the man and the two women as well shall be burned to death for their shameful conduct, so that such shamefulness may not be found among you.
15
If a man has carnal relations with an animal, the man shall be put to death, and the animal shall be slain.
16
If a woman goes up to any animal to mate with it, the woman and the animal shall be slain; let them both be put to death; their lives are forfeit.
17
If a man consummates marriage with his sister or his half-sister, they shall be publicly cut off from their people for this shameful deed; the man shall pay the penalty of having had intercourse with his own sister.
18
If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood. // Sex during menstration is also forbidden as well
19
You shall not have intercourse with your mother's sister or your father's sister; whoever does so shall pay the penalty of incest.
20
If a man disgraces his uncle by having intercourse with his uncle's wife, the man and his aunt shall pay the penalty by dying childless.
21
If a man marries his brother's wife and thus disgraces his brother, they shall be childless because of this incest.
22
"Be careful to observe all my statutes and all my decrees; otherwise the land where I am bringing you to dwell will vomit you out.
23
Do not conform, therefore, to the customs of the nations whom I am driving out of your way, because all these things that they have done have filled me with disgust for them.
24
But to you I have said: Their land shall be your possession, a land flowing with milk and honey. I am giving it to you as your own, I, the LORD, your God, who have set you apart from the other nations.
25
You, too, must set apart, then, the clean animals from the unclean, and the clean birds from the unclean, so that you may not be contaminated with the uncleanness of any beast or bird or of any swarming creature in the land that I have set apart for you.
26
To me, therefore, you shall be sacred; for I, the LORD, am sacred, I, who have set you apart from the other nations to be my own.


I don't know how those parts was out of context, lets go on.

Exodus 35
35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These [are] the words which the LORD hath commanded, that [ye] should do them.
35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
35:4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This [is] the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
35:5 Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever [is] of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,
35:6 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' [hair],
35:7 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
35:8 And oil for the light, and spices for anointing oil, and for the sweet incense,
35:9 And onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod, and for the breastplate.
35:10 And every wise hearted among you shall come, and make all that the LORD hath commanded;
35:11 The tabernacle, his tent, and his covering, his taches, and his boards, his bars, his pillars, and his sockets,
35:12 The ark, and the staves thereof, [with] the mercy seat, and the vail of the covering,
35:13 The table, and his staves, and all his vessels, and the shewbread,
35:14 The candlestick also for the light, and his furniture, and his lamps, with the oil for the light,
35:15 And the incense altar, and his staves, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the door at the entering in of the tabernacle,
35:16 The altar of burnt offering, with his brasen grate, his staves, and all his vessels, the laver and his foot,
35:17 The hangings of the court, his pillars, and their sockets, and the hanging for the door of the court,
35:18 The pins of the tabernacle, and the pins of the court, and their cords,
35:19 The cloths of service, to do service in the holy [place], the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office.
35:20 And all the congregation of the children of Israel departed from the presence of Moses.
35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, [and] they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
35:22 And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, [and] brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered [offered] an offering of gold unto the LORD.
35:23 And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' [hair], and red skins of rams, and badgers' skins, brought [them].
35:24 Every one that did offer an offering of silver and brass brought the LORD'S offering: and every man, with whom was found shittim wood for any work of the service, brought [it].
35:25 And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, [both] of blue, and of purple, [and] of scarlet, and of fine linen.
35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' [hair].
35:27 And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate;
35:28 And spice, and oil for the light, and for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense.
35:29 The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
35:30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
35:32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
35:33 And in the cutting of stones, to set [them], and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
35:34 And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, [both] he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
35:35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, [even] of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

Still means the same in context, it also promotes sacrifing and giving money to the church... wonder how anyone can think the one saying this could have ANY personal agenda... /sarcasm

The slaves part might actually be out of context, is argueable, so wont bother posting it here, just the part that makes it argueable:

Peter 2:16-18
16
Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.
17
Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king.
18
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.

Here one could argue that perhaps it is intended that it is slaves of God, but it then says masters, which doesn't go along with there being only ONE TRUE GOD according to the rest of the book

Ephesians 5
1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a]
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
10and find out what pleases the Lord.
11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,
16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.
17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.
18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—
30for we are members of his body.
31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c]
32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Sorry for posting such a long mass of text, most of which poorly formatted for this forum, but think it is important to show that I did not just take stuff out of context to promote my view

 

[Chronictank]

If you use the [code ] [/code] tags it keeps most the formatting

e.g

This is text
	[b ]I am text[/b]
Text am i

Or altenernatively uses the
It doesnt work aswell but allows you to keep bolds, and such

This is text
I am text
Text am i

 

[old.Tohtori]

Shame you decided to discuss that part, though it's interesting, as i've not a foremost expert on it as i said. Would have to read mroe, but, as an example:

"Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. // [/I]Molech = God from another religion

Couldn't that be read, as many other of "give offspring to molech", that if you sacrifice(how else would on give offspring?) to another god, you should die for it?

Just thinking here.

Also about casting out of the people, i guess that could be meant as "sent out of the religious circle".

I can agree that the bible has some rules that arn't followed(which they should if it the holy word), and i guess many religions pick their guidelines. But, then again, if those rules were written these days based on the "teachings of jesus and god"(if it's real), they would be written differently. At those times, that was rather normal.

By the way, about many gods etc, i'm gonna discuss it in my writing. There's many gods, or semi-gods, mentioned in the bible too:

Something alog the lines of "and when HE(god) returned to egypt, the semi-gods covered in fear". My writing will show, well, "show" how very similar nordic religion is to some of the stuff in the bible, also discuss on how some gods are world known, with nations that had little contact etc etc.

It's mostly just an observational thing, of all religions, should be an interesting read even for an atheist. IT's far FAR from done though

 

[Iceforge]

Well, was in a rush due making dinner, so had to choose what to reply to and seemed most important to show that I am not bending the truth to favour my arguement more so than argueing against your new points

You talk about it might have been worded different if the bible had been written today, but as it is supposedly the holy word of GOD HIMSELF, it should be eternal and always true no matter what.

The fact that it demonstrates that it thinks right and wrong is just like the society judged right and wrong at the time it was written, just shows that it was written by ordinary men who in no way had the ability to show a higher standard of morals than anybody else or knowledge of the universe than anybody else.

I can't really say much to you about your religion, because it is quite unclear to me right now what you actually belive.
It sounds to me, with your "working on theories" that you are adapting your religion to fit with modern society, which I can admire in the way that you don't pretend society and science is wrong when contradicting your religious view from the sound of it, but also it seems to me like a desperate last hold on to something you very dearly want to belive to be true and trying to pretend that there i no reason not to belive it by modifying your belief.
That also might just be me completely misunderstanding what you was saying.

But it also, on another note, sounds like you are writing a book. That I find extremely interesting, and while I do not share your view and religion, if you want someone to read parts of it and give feedback during your development, I would love to do that.

And at the last subject of that post from before my last ones, you want to correct me, but it is the same you are saying.

I meant and still does that you say I should SAY it, I know you never tried to be police of what I was allowed to think or not in any way

Also, the part about sacrifce, you should note that I did not mention that in my previous post as something their religion said, it was just a comment to what else the text actually said and I made perhaps a quick judgement there as it could definitely mean that he would punish those who sacrifices their own child to another God.

 

[Chronictank]

Well, was in a rush due making dinner, so had to choose what to reply to and seemed most important to show that I am not bending the truth to favour my arguement more so than argueing against your new points

You talk about it might have been worded different if the bible had been written today, but as it is supposedly the holy word of GOD HIMSELF, it should be eternal and always true no matter what.

Dammit you dragged me in !
Not true, the original bible in its original form may be
But the modern bible has been re-formatted/changed over time
Through intentional or unintentional means,
Example;
all translations of the bible do not go back to the original copies, they are translations of translations of translations....., you get the idea
And translations are prone to errors/assumptions/opinions of the original translator, concatenate the effect over time and the interpretations will inevitably change chinese whispers style.

I wont get into the actual content as i should be doing my dissertation, but thought i would point that out

 

[old.Tohtori]

Will have to post in a more coherant and, i guess, long way when i get the time. Not ignoring you, leting you know

We agree on many things, but at the same time, watch it from a different angle. Personal beliefs ofcourse come into play at that time.

I have my basic faith/religion/beliefs, and i am adapting them also(mainly why i'm writing what i am), but it's in no way a desperate hold onto old ways. It's just what i believe.

Anyhoo, will return to this thread when i get the chance to post more, but about the thing i'm writing, one could say it's a book, "lifework" book even, don't kno wwhen it's done, but it's msotly observations from one man.

One thing, as an example, is that it seems(not sure yet, have to dig more stuff up) that the religion preceeding christianity and the "one god" belief, could very well be the starting point, where as the nordic belief system ends in a "ragnarok"(other terms exist).

As in, Odin was the "ubergod", at ragnarok the gods were overthrown/killed/moved out, and one god was left. The one god in the bible, could very well be odin, but also, could be the goddess of love who i smentioned in many cultures.

It's all very raw and unfinished still, but that should give an idea of WHAT i'm doing.

 

[Iceforge]

Dammit you dragged me in !
Not true, the original bible in its original form may be
But the modern bible has been re-formatted/changed over time
Through intentional or unintentional means,
Example;
all translations of the bible do not go back to the original copies, they are translations of translations of translations....., you get the idea
And translations are prone to errors/assumptions/opinions of the original translator, concatenate the effect over time and the interpretations will inevitably change chinese whispers style.

I wont get into the actual content as i should be doing my dissertation, but thought i would point that out

Does it really matters that the translations of translations of translations has been subdued to false pretense, when they are still worshipped as the true word of God?
Those who worship them as the true word of God is just a faulty for beliving a bible including those passages I cited whatever that is how the bible originally was or not, because they belive in that specific translation of the bible that I cited anyway and not only in the original bible which they have never read

 

[Chronictank]

Does it really matters that the translations of translations of translations has been subdued to false pretense, when they are still worshipped as the true word of God?
Those who worship them as the true word of God is just a faulty for beliving a bible including those passages I cited whatever that is how the bible originally was or not, because they belive in that specific translation of the bible that I cited anyway and not only in the original bible which they have never read

it is if you are discussing the bible, however if you are discussing modern christianity (as you are far as i can tell), it is an entirely different ballgame
While it may seem pedantic, i personally think the difference is pretty substancial as it means your statement that it will always be the 'true word of god no matter what', is inaccurate
As soon as you centralise power, it no longer becomes soley about religious conviction unfortunately for the simple reason that humans are fallible

 

[Iceforge]

Old.Tohtori - Looking forward to a longer response when you got the time

Chronictank - Yes, I am discussing modern Christianity, but will just state that I have very serious doubts that the firsts drafts of the bible was any better. We do have 2,300 years old documents (oldest copy of the old testament) which I never heard should be much different from the current version ofc there will be issue about translation and such.

But about the translation, I just want to add that Peter 2, the part about women worshipping men, does exist in 2 different versions clearly. The other version is far less foul, I think it is version from 1400 that is the less foul one, but that just sort of proves my point if it is the most recent adaption that is the least foul adaption.

I mean, if you are going to change it to fit the world, you might as well boil it down to what is the essense of it:
Christian: I belive there is a God. He created the heavens and the earth, and if we are good we go to heaven after death or he sends us to hell if we were evil during life. End, done, finito, and that I would be able to live with people telling me they belived.

 

[Iceforge]

rofl!

See Christianity through the eyes of an atheist, if you please:

YouTube - Kissing Hank's Ass
[youtubevid]fDp7pkEcJVQ[/youtubevid]