p4 vs amd64

[mikke]

I currently got amd 1800xp
1024mb ddr 2400 ram
geforce TI 4800 128mb ddr ram

and im lagging like a bitch and its not my isp.

im concidering to buy a new cpu and motherboard. and ive heard that amd64 2ghz is much better then p4 3ghz...

can anyone give me advice about what to buy and how on earth it can be better with 2ghz then with 3ghz?

 

[Crookshanks]

Personally I'd go with an AMD64 - depending on your budget maybe a 3500+ (at ~£140) (I would try to avoid going lower than this) or a 3800+ AMD64 X2 (at about £235) (which will probably run daoc slightly slower but is dual core so you have lots of spare cycles to do other things should you want to). If you have more wonga available, the AMD64x2 4200+ at £300 is a stonking dual core chip at a not too unreasonable price (the 4400+ is still a bit over the top at £370 in my opinion).

Having said that - the Pentium-4 820 is damn cheap for a dual core chip at about £190 (its 2x2.8Ghz Pentium 4), it depends how much you think you'll be doing multiple cpu intensive tasks on your box at once.

As for how can a 2Ghz CPU be faster than a 3Ghz CPU - its all to do with the length of the pipelines within the chip. Extremely simplified explanation (because I dont' understand it in much more detail ) is the pipeline length represents the number of steps needed to "get something done". The longer the pipeline, the more logic the CPU can use to determine what bit of memory to get next (before the current operation has finished), which is by far the gratest bottleneck in a modern CPU.

But there's a tradeoff - for a single operation you have to "tick" through the whole pipeline at the speed of the CPU. So a 3Ghz CPU crunches through a single bit of the pipe quicker than a 2Ghz CPU, but there's a lot further to go. Hence it can often be a lot quicker to do something on a short pipeline than a long one. Now a Pentium 4 (Prescott) pipeline is 31 steps long, and a AMD64 is 12 stages, so it takes almost 3 times as many ticks on a P4 as a AMD64 to perform an operation, although its crunching each step more quickly (1.5x as quick in our example), which results in a 3.0Ghz p4 taking ~1.7 times as long to do something as a 2.0Ghz AMD64.

BUT... remember the point of the pipeline stages - many of them are concerned with branch prediction and deciding what bit of memory the CPU is likely to need next before it needs it? Well this helps the P4, and so the 1.7 multiplier comes down to a multiplier which is dependent upon what exactly you are doing.

Now it turns out that in general, most "normal" things people do (like running games) its very difficult to predict what bit of code is needed next, and so the shorter pipeline AMD64 wins out. But in complex CPU intensive work like .mp3 encoding, the predictions are more successful, and hence the P4 is still the king here.

Interestingly, even Intel has now admitted short pipelines are the way to go. The Pentium-M runs at relatively low CPU frequencies (I think the max is currently 2.1Ghz?) yet they do things remarkably well. The reason? Short pipelines - the Pentium-M is 12-14 stages long (I can't see the exact number atm, I think I read 13 but further googling is needed). Intel has now publically admitted that their future designs are very likely to be based on the Pentium-M, which will more than likely loose Intel the encoding CPU of choice crown - so they had better make sure its damn good at everything else!

 

[Varna]

I run a P4 HT cpu and despite it's heat issues, which you need a 120mm fan for and high quality heatsink for, I think it's really nice. I got it also 'cos I don't only play games on PC, I like to encode etc and Intel traditionally does this better, despite being generally slower than AMD, but thats the way it's always been.

 

[mikke]

Personally I'd go with an AMD64 - depending on your budget maybe a 3500+ (at ~£140) (I would try to avoid going lower than this) or a 3800+ AMD64 X2 (at about £235) (which will probably run daoc slightly slower but is dual core so you have lots of spare cycles to do other things should you want to). If you have more wonga available, the AMD64x2 4200+ at £300 is a stonking dual core chip at a not too unreasonable price (the 4400+ is still a bit over the top at £370 in my opinion).

Having said that - the Pentium-4 820 is damn cheap for a dual core chip at about £190 (its 2x2.8Ghz Pentium 4), it depends how much you think you'll be doing multiple cpu intensive tasks on your box at once.

As for how can a 2Ghz CPU be faster than a 3Ghz CPU - its all to do with the length of the pipelines within the chip. Extremely simplified explanation (because I dont' understand it in much more detail ) is the pipeline length represents the number of steps needed to "get something done". The longer the pipeline, the more logic the CPU can use to determine what bit of memory to get next (before the current operation has finished), which is by far the gratest bottleneck in a modern CPU.

But there's a tradeoff - for a single operation you have to "tick" through the whole pipeline at the speed of the CPU. So a 3Ghz CPU crunches through a single bit of the pipe quicker than a 2Ghz CPU, but there's a lot further to go. Hence it can often be a lot quicker to do something on a short pipeline than a long one. Now a Pentium 4 (Prescott) pipeline is 31 steps long, and a AMD64 is 12 stages, so it takes almost 3 times as many ticks on a P4 as a AMD64 to perform an operation, although its crunching each step more quickly (1.5x as quick in our example), which results in a 3.0Ghz p4 taking ~1.7 times as long to do something as a 2.0Ghz AMD64.

BUT... remember the point of the pipeline stages - many of them are concerned with branch prediction and deciding what bit of memory the CPU is likely to need next before it needs it? Well this helps the P4, and so the 1.7 multiplier comes down to a multiplier which is dependent upon what exactly you are doing.

Now it turns out that in general, most "normal" things people do (like running games) its very difficult to predict what bit of code is needed next, and so the shorter pipeline AMD64 wins out. But in complex CPU intensive work like .mp3 encoding, the predictions are more successful, and hence the P4 is still the king here.

Interestingly, even Intel has now admitted short pipelines are the way to go. The Pentium-M runs at relatively low CPU frequencies (I think the max is currently 2.1Ghz?) yet they do things remarkably well. The reason? Short pipelines - the Pentium-M is 12-14 stages long (I can't see the exact number atm, I think I read 13 but further googling is needed). Intel has now publically admitted that their future designs are very likely to be based on the Pentium-M, which will more than likely loose Intel the encoding CPU of choice crown - so they had better make sure its damn good at everything else!

Omfg, I understand about 50% of what your saying. and i only play games on my computer. So i wonder if you can conclude that to something?

From what i think i got out of what you wrote its amd64 thats the best for gaming. Is this right?

And a some more Question; Should i upgrade my gfx card or will it still hold ?

What is the diffrence on these prossesors?

AMD Athlon 64 3800+ 2.4GHz Socket 939, 512KB, BOXED m/vifte <-- got 512kb
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.0GHz Socket 939 1MB, BOXED m/vifte <-- got 1bm

what does that 512kb mean?
Thanks for a uber reply!

 

[Cylian]

What is the diffrence on these prossesors?

AMD Athlon 64 3800+ 2.4GHz Socket 939, 512KB, BOXED m/vifte <-- got 512kb
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.0GHz Socket 939 1MB, BOXED m/vifte <-- got 1bm

what does that 512kb mean?

the 512k/1MB refers to the CPU internal cache

the 3800+ is a single core CPU, the X2 3800+ is a dual-core CPU, which means it's actually two CPUs in one. But unless you run programs that either support multiple CPUs or you're running 2+ CPU intensive programs at the same time, you won't notice much of a difference between single and dual-cores CPUs.

 

[Varna]

Hey,

Basically to sum it up, he is saying that the AMD is the better option if all you do is play games. If you want to do stuff like create music, heavy programming where lot's of things are going on at once, then the P4 will be better. So basically, if all you do with your PC is play games and you don't plan on doing anything else with it, then AMD is the way togo (the shorter pipeline st00f is a little confusing for the amature to understand, but basically the more 'pipes' you have, and the shorter 'pipes' they are, the more data can flow, so imagine a train station, you have 4 tracks and 4 trains all on a course to a destination spanning a mile, but they upgraded the service and moved the station closer along the track to the end, so theyre now only 1/2 a mile, but they now use 8 trains and 8 tubes, so they can carry more people much faster in a shorter amount of time!).

I think you should upgrade your graphics if you can afford it, a nice card is the 6600gt, which does have a few heat issues which can be resolved with buying a new fan (use the search function on FH, there are alternatives & solutions people have given and advise on how-to tackle the problem - a fan I'm ordering is a Zalman, it's a copper heatsink with a nifty design - plus it can be moved onto new cards when you upgrade!), but it's a cheap card and a futureproof solution, you could probably get a 9800gt if you find the right deal, but do make sure to use google and check out the reviews on certain makes of cards and how they fair against the competition.

Also unless you like to run 3d Mark tests (A program which gives a score of how powerful your machine is by doing heavy cpu intensive mathematical tests..), then you won't notice a big difference in day-to-day gaming.

Hope this helps

 

[Crookshanks]

Yes sorry Mikke I got a bit carried away with what started out as a short explanation. As Varna says, the AMD64 is generally better for games and the Intel is better for encoding.

To answer your original question again in a condensed form :

can anyone give me advice about what to buy and how on earth it can be better with 2ghz then with 3ghz?

A 3 Ghz Intel spends more time trying to work out how to make itself process code faster. This turns out to be a good way of making encoding faster, but is a waste of time making more general applications like games running. A 2Ghz AMD doesn't bother wasting time trying to work out how to make things faster - it just gets on with them. This makes games a bit faster in general, but slows down encoding.


As for the graphics card - you'll need a new one for sure. You want to try and match up a graphics card with a CPU - the price at the moment is a reasonable way of doing this - ie. pair a £200 CPU with a £200 graphics card to get the best system for your money, although this rule breaks down a bit at the extreme end of the CPU market.

 

[scorge]

i have an AMD fx53 on an opteron mobo with 1 gig of DDR ram, i might have to change it in teh fture thought as i quiet like the SLI mobos and dual GFX cards.

for gaming go with AMD, for microsoft products go with intel.

 

[Frozodo]

well i run amd 3500+ 2gb ram, geforce 7800GT runs all games i tried even duel window daoc, but sometimes in camelot i get the odd lag spikes but then again clustring just came

 

[ijm770]

So does this mean that if you want to play 2 ccounts on 1 PC then you are better getting a dual-core CPU? Sorry if this may seem an obvious question.....

 

[Bonelamencer]

yep

 

[Varna]

So does this mean that if you want to play 2 ccounts on 1 PC then you are better getting a dual-core CPU? Sorry if this may seem an obvious question.....

Yes & No, AMD64 machines run just aswell from what I've both seen and heard, however you'll want to prioritise on RAM when dual logging though, typically each proccess will suck 512MB, so a total of 1024MB at minimum when dual logging. Low latency ram will help you alot, lower latency basically means your machine takes less time, just like your ping etc on online games, the lower/shorter it is the less delay between proccesses you'll get, so think of it this way, you fire a gun in an online game, the delay between firing that gun fire and it registering your end on the screen is the latency, it works the same way with ram. Typically when you look for new ram, you will see it says CAS x.x, basically the lower the number the lower the latency, obviously the lower it is the more expensive it becomes.

 

[Himse]

Ok i got a amd64 thingy and its pwnz for running 2 accs.

2x2400 chips. its actually the win but maybe i need more memory :< 2gb only atm :<

 

[Twinky]

just wondering.. diff between ddr ram 512mb 2700 and the ddr ram 512mb 3200


(well think its 2700 and 3200 not sure, but u know what i mean)

 

[Bonelamencer]

just wondering.. diff between ddr ram 512mb 2700 and the ddr ram 512mb 3200


(well think its 2700 and 3200 not sure, but u know what i mean)

PC 2700 = 2700GB/sec bandwidth(between RAM and CPU)
PC 3200 = 3200gb/sec bandwidth

If you don't know what's the bandwidth of your DDR ram then multiple frequency of the bus x8,so for 400Mhz bus that's 3200gb/sec,for 667Mhz - 5300gb/sec,for 1000mhz - 8000gb/sec.That method works for DDR/DDR2 types of RAM only(for example,the multiplier for RDRAM is x2 e.t.c.).

However,as it was said above,don't forget about CAS(CL) also.That shows the time,required to establish connections between CPU and cells of RAM.Normaly,CL of ddr 3200 is 2,5 , 5300 - 4 and PC8000 - 5. So PC 5300 CL4 RAM isn't 2x faster then PC 2700 CL2 RAM.

 

[Bonelamencer]

PC 2700 = 2700GB/sec bandwidth(between RAM and CPU)
PC 3200 = 3200gb/sec bandwidth

If you don't know what's the bandwidth of your DDR ram then multiple frequency of the bus x8,so for 400Mhz bus that's 3200gb/sec,for 667Mhz - 5300gb/sec,for 1000mhz - 8000gb/sec.That method works for DDR/DDR2 types of RAM only(for example,the multiplier for RDRAM is x2 e.t.c.).

However,as it was said above,don't forget about CAS(CL) also.That shows the time,required to establish connections between CPU and cells of RAM.Normaly,CL of ddr 3200 is 2,5 , 5300 - 4 and PC8000 - 5. So PC 5300 CL4 RAM isn't 2x faster then PC 2700 CL2 RAM.

Ermm sorry,I made mistake I meant 3,2gb/sec ,5,3gb/sec and 8gb/sec bandwidth , not 3200gb/sec e.t.c lol

 

[Coolan]

those cl ratings arnt correct either as ddr400(pc3200) can run anywhere from 2-3.5 depending on what you buy.

 

[Starwind]

You can have the fastest car in the world, but its not forced to be a relaxing ride.

But my 2 cents:

AMD seem to crash quite abit, and lock up campared to P4's when multi-tasking high loads.

 

[Hawkwind]

In answer to the above. Yes P4's tend to be a bit more stable. But that's usually because the AMD 64+ are more particular when it comes to RAM. Low latency paired modules are a must if your going the AMD route. The amount of RAM modules I have trown/given away in the past two years has tought me that much.

I only use matched low latency pairs now and have never had a crash on any of the 3 AMD machines I have running.

 

[Honza]

Well, what cpu to take... pure gaming machine AMDx2 64 bit cpu, anything else Intel (in case the 'else' isn't MS Word and Excel :=))
On colledge I had 1,7GHz Celeron (old Willamete core crap) while my room mate had 3GHz AMD...
When we run the game (both have same GFX card) I am having problems with framerate, cause CPU can't handle feeding GFX card while my room mate runs fine
When we were doing our Visual Studio software project, my gimpCeleron compiled it in 5 minutes while his AMD took the same over 25mins!
Nowadays everything is very heavily dependant on 'what it is coded for'...

Currently I am using HT P4 2,4@3,2-4,2 (depending what I need to do and no it's not common shop bought cpu - it's bought from Intel presentation PC on one computer fair few years ago), 1GB Corsair 2-2-2-5 dual channel and FX5900 card... I run cata client with full details and friday monsterzerg was first time I ever had performance lag (with gamecam running & recording). Can't complain about it in slightest (ofc always willing to accept 2x 7800 GTX cards if some1 gave them )

 

[mikke]

ok now im really confused..

I wanted a Amd64 cpu couse ive heard its the best for gaming.. but then i have to use gimped and expencive ram...

If i buy P4 cpu, i can buy ddr2 ram, wich has 800mhz~ and 5cl. cost 700NOK for 512mb ram.
And if i buy amd64 cpu i can buy ddr-dimm ram.. with 3-500mhz~ and 2-3cl. cost 900 for 512 mb ram..

I mean, the ddr2 ram i get if i buy p4 cpu is like 2-3 times better then the crappy ddr-dimm ram, and its cheaper.. So is the amd64 cpu so much better then p4 that its worth not getting this uber ram?

 

[cHodAX]

ok now im really confused..

I wanted a Amd64 cpu couse ive heard its the best for gaming.. but then i have to use gimped and expencive ram...

If i buy P4 cpu, i can buy ddr2 ram, wich has 800mhz~ and 5cl. cost 700NOK for 512mb ram.
And if i buy amd64 cpu i can buy ddr-dimm ram.. with 3-500mhz~ and 2-3cl. cost 900 for 512 mb ram..

I mean, the ddr2 ram i get if i buy p4 cpu is like 2-3 times better then the crappy ddr-dimm ram, and its cheaper.. So is the amd64 cpu so much better then p4 that its worth not getting this uber ram?

The DDR2 ram that the P4 uses runs at a higher frequency than the DDR on the AMD64 but it also runs at a much higher latency than the DDR which is a bad thing. The simple fact is this, DDR2 can not feed the data fast enough to the P4 whereas the DDR running in dual channel mode supplies more bandwidth than the AMD64 can use and that applies even to the dual core version. Simply put it is like this, DDR is ideally suited to the AMD64 architecture and DDR2 is suited to the P4 with it's very deeply pipelined architecture. Neither has any real advantage and both have thier pluses and minuses.

All that said though, if you are a serious gamer then you cannot go wrong with either a single or dual core AMD64. The P4 is a decent all rounder but it does suffer somewhat when it comes to gaming because game code runs a bit slower due to the DDR2 latency issues and the complication of the P4 having such long pipelines which is more suited to streaming media than executing game code. You also have the P4 power and heat issues which are quite frankly ridiculous, the P4 uses close to twice as much poor under 100% load compared to the AMD64 and it generates an awful lot more heat as well. The Prescott variant of the P4 is known as 'the space heater' because it does a damn good job of warming your room during the winter months The newer AMD64 run very cool and can be used in very low noise PC's just by using a half decent low noise heatsink and fan, that is not really an option for the P4 because it needs some serious airflow to keep the CPU from having to perform a thermal shutdown or automatic clock speed reduction.

DDR is not half as tricky as some people claim, the problems really only occur when people want to overclock the CPU and hence have to play with the ram timing settings. Running at stock speeds DDR has no issues on the AMD64 platform, I have built 6 such machines in the last few months and the only machine that has given me problems is my own because I bought an overclockers motherboard and memory because I wanted to tinker with the settings.

If you just want a decent gaming machine and don't plan to overclock you seriously can't go wrong with the AMD64, they are faster/cooler/quieter than the equivelant P4 and use electricity as well.

 

[mikke]

Great

btwn i have this:
2x DDR-DIMM PC2100 512MB DDR CL2.5
Memory 184-P (for DDR-PC266MHz)


if i buy amd 64 cpu.. should i upgrade\buy more\ buy new?

 

[cHodAX]

Great

btwn i have this:
2x DDR-DIMM PC2100 512MB DDR CL2.5
Memory 184-P (for DDR-PC266MHz)


if i buy amd 64 cpu.. should i upgrade\buy more\ buy new?

Buy new, PC2100 speed would seriously cripple your machine. Ideally you should buy a matched pair of PC3200 memory modules if you intend to run in dual channel mode. If you can afford it then go for memory with a CL rating of 2 but if not then 2.5 is just fine, you will see CL3 memory but to be honest that is the bargain basement stuff and not a great investment. For quality memory try here ;

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Memory_8.html

OCZ, GeIL and G.Skill are all very good. The others on there look fine too but avoid the OcUK Value ram as it is just cheaper generic stuff unless you are on a tight budget. Corsair and Crucial are good mid-range buys, Cruicial have a great warranty and RMA system as well.

 

[Varna]

My P4 uses,

120mm fan and HSF.



So don't get a P4 if you want a quiet PC, cos you won't get one

 

[cHodAX]

My P4 uses,

120mm fan and HSF.



So don't get a P4 if you want a quiet PC, cos you won't get one

That Akasa fan is actually pretty quiet, I use one on my XP120 as well The thing is though that my overclocked AMD64 runs idle at 21c so the fan doesn't even kick in till it hits 25c, most of the time when I am browsing the web the fan isn't even moving. Got to love the XP120 Problem for the P4 (prescott in particular) user is that the CPU throws out so much heat that the fan never gets to spin at anything less than 100% speed, even then though the XP120 and Asaka Silent fan combo is miles better than anything else I have come across. Compared to stock coolers they literally are silent.

 

[Agent Davidov]

My P4 uses,

120mm fan and HSF.



So don't get a P4 if you want a quiet PC, cos you won't get one

The stock Intel CPU fan is the most irritatingly noisy peice of crap ever created. My 3GHz P4 now runs with a Zalman Flower so all I hear is the grfx card ...
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/p4cooling.php#6500b

 

[Honza]

Speaking about RAM modules:
For AMD cpu, you have to take PC3200 memories with low latency, preferably dual channel of total size 1GB at least. Though you have to do extra checks your RAM modules handles CL2 for AMDs... most modules that are CL2 handle this only on Intel platforms!
For Intel CPU, the best RAM you can get is Corsair TWIN2X1024A-5400 UL with timing 3-3-2-8-1T - it's the fastest RAM on market atm (ofc you can see rams with better timings, but they were so far all proved unstable).

And considering manufacturer of RAM, get Corsairs, they're (tests - wise) better then Geil or OCZ.
In case you can't afford paying high end RAM modules, best cheapo manufacturer you can choose is Samsung.

 

[liloe]

dual Intel Xeon 2.8Ghz atm, runs very smooth, just the downside is that if you want the max outta some apps, you'll need a 64bit operating system and drivers are a bitch to get for that.

As I write this I'm playing DAoC for the first time on it and I can run smooth in 1280*1024 catacombs client all details while recording fraps all the time. Also I still have a 2nd CPU for doing other stuf.....like logging a 2nd char in at exactly the same speed. Next try: VMware and 4DAoC clients.

The only shit is, that Win2003 isn't much loved by Logitech and Windows XP hates my PCI-X Raid Controller

For silence issues I have the passive solution Xeons, which doesn`t mean you can cool them in a regular Midi-tower though. Passive cooling means you need no active cooler when running them in a 2height-units rack.

But if you want my opinion, for gaming purposes run an AMD. Even without HT you'll log multiple accos quite easily, I've seen others do it =)

 

[MKJ]

You all go on about running 2 DAOC accounts on one machine but really you should consider having 2 base units and connecting both using something like I use - KVM Switch. KVM Switch enables you to connect 2 base units to one monitor, keyboard and mouse. You end up with a small control box that your can place next to your keyboard whereby you can flick between each base unit instantly. Your poxy buffbot on the lower spec base unit and your main alt on your 'uber' base unit. Honestly this is the best way you can possibly run DAOC and 2 accounts. When I first set this up I was attacked in Darkness at level 42 (or 44 - can't remember exactly) on my sb by a level 50 inf (no bragging this but fact). Because there wasn't any delay between the switching over to either base unit I could keep my sb alive by casting on him with my buffbot. The inf tried to take out my buffbot so I retaliated by controlling my sb - instantly. One dead inf . That is how good the setup is. You can control either alt so fast and smoothly people can't tell there is only one guy playing. The only lag you might suffer is from your monitor. Some big screens collapse and expand again on switching. On a 19" crt monitor I was using at the time the change over was instant. Think about this as a remedy not only for DAOC but for general use because having 2 units connected is great at all times - backup - website designing (trying out different resolutions etc). Go look on Ebuyer for details about the KVM Switch.

Edit: you will need a usb or similar data cable to share internet connection too - very cheap.