Our problem in rvr.

[old.SadonTheGrey]

To those that think tanks should always be in the front like that makes me a bad tank. To my group that makes me a good group member.

Nope, that just pisses off the casters who get sniped/bolted/PA'ed.

If you wanted to do massive damage, go role a nuker.

If you want to be there at the first chance, make an infiltrator.

You don't rake in the RP's in a battle, like Jerirraa said, its the casters that nuke that do, they trade this for paper armour, lack of melee and no HP's. Which is were tanks come in, as they make up for this.

You won't believe how happy it makes me when a tank intercepts shots for me, makes soo much difference to my lifespan that I might, just *might* get that bolt off and nuke that bitch of a runie Stormur Vakten on the wall being occupied nuking the tanks. Or get AE mes of as a sorc...

 

[Turamber]

SadonTheGrey, with all due respect, you are talking from an area that should be reserved for sitting down on.

My post pointed out that tanks can not do ALL the things that people in this thread are demanding. I rolled a sword/shield Paladin and I have specced my chants to the max (49). I do not do "massive damage", I am happy with being a good group member and helping my fellows stay alive. Other players have rolled polearmsmen or two handed tanks because they wish to deliver damage, if you want to flame them please carry on but do not direct that comment at me.

There are plenty of other tanks out there like me who stay close to their casters and block arrows/bolts etc, we have even been known to block attacks from enemies from time to time but that is STILL not working right in this patch. We are not cowards or bad players to do this - we are fulfilling an important role in RvR!

However we can't be holding the hand of the casters AND charging the enemy casters at the same time. Some tanks defend their casters, others attack the enemy casters. That sometimes more tanks attack the enemy or other times more tanks hang back and defend the casters does NOT mean the tanks are stupid or bad players ... it means there is insufficient communication going on between players. Which makes the casters equally guilty.

It's very easy to blame one class and say that the problems are all their fault, but its also a crock of shit. I could point out a number of instances where casters have grouped together and declined to group me - saying they wanted to maximise their realm point earnings. Well its not very surprising when they get ganked by assassins or shot to pieces by archers. Or there are the casters who at milegate defences stay on the ground and don't go on the battlements to cast. Stupid buggers. But do I come here posting a load of balls about how its all the casters fault?

Nope, because it is a collective problem. And the main problem is lack of communication.

Lastly, to those moaning about "macho" tanks who engage each other rather than the enemy casters, and then insist that its only Albion's tanks who do this .... who the hell do you think those Albion tanks are fighting?!!! They are fighting other tanks from Midgard/Hibernia. So this whole 'blame the goddamn tanks' thing is a complete load of cobblers.

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by old.Plebo
The Hibs, in my limited experience of meeting them, also seem to employ some tactics as well.

I'd refer you to Willowy's post above, as you will see from her signature she is the player behind Malevolencia - everyone's favourite Hibernian tank. She carries a hammer twice as big as her, and my goodness it hits hard

Her post demonstrates that the problems being discussed don't only happen in Albion, they happen in other realms also. There is far too much of this 'grass is always greener in another realm' hoohah being said by Albion's players. I bet they don't say that in Midgard/Hibernia oops...

EDIT: Can't spell..

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Aye Turamber... the problem is lack of comm. You can't blame all tanks for not charging or call the cowards bcz they stay with the casters. It all depends on your specc but how many tanks out there actualy use their bag of tricks?

 

[Turamber]

Hard to say Jeriraa. Not all Paladins' are quick to run the correct chant in the right circumstances, but then they might have a low spec in chants or be inexperienced in RvR.

It took us all a while to get to grips with our character in PvE, and RvR is a completely new ball game. As long as those tanks are learning from their experiences and willing to listen to constructive comments then I'm happy.

Slightly off topic - in PvE with my cabalist I use about 5 different buttons but in RvR -- my goodness, I'm jumping from shortcut bar to shortcut bar!

 

[Murcalumis]

Originally posted by old.SadonTheGrey
If you wanted to do massive damage, go role a nuker.

If you want to be there at the first chance, make an infiltrator.

You don't rake in the RP's in a battle, like Jerirraa said, its the casters that nuke that do, they trade this for paper armour, lack of melee and no HP's. Which is were tanks come in, as they make up for this.

If you want protection from arrows and bolts, go roll a tank. Stupid argument, frankly. Us tanks are designed to be your armour and to stand around doing nothing so you can potter around doing what you like? Bollocks.

I'm not saying that I don't or wouldn't protect casters, but there comes a point when you want to rush in and have a bit of fun, rather than being armour and a shield for all those 'uber dmg dealaring castars'.

Like you said to us, if we wanted damage we'd have rolled a nuker. If you want some protection, shut up with your moaning and roll a tank. And if you don't want to do that, be quiet about it.

 

[leviathane]

Originally posted by Turamber

Slightly off topic - in PvE with my cabalist I use about 5 different buttons but in RvR -- my goodness, I'm jumping from shortcut bar to shortcut bar!

i always find that the best thing for my sorc in rvr is to make a special rvr quickbar.

 

[Aurelius LH]

Leaders?

Originally posted by old.Plebo
Which does suggest that the thing we need most in Albion are leaders. We need to have some people that we know can lead RvR situations and follow their orders....if they get it wrong, then we shouldn't flame them, but should let them learn from the experience.

Well maybe... but I'm more inclined to think we need intelligent followers, who can do what our 'leaders' tell them whilst paying attention to things that are happening around them.

 

[Danya]

Guard does work to some extent turamber. A shield hero blocked both DW attacks from a merc on me the other day while playing my ment. In fact he did such a good job that between him and 6s pbt I got hit about 4 times in 30s by that merc.

 

[Turamber]

Yes Danyan, it does work a little better. Was grouped with Amirder on patch day and I blocked 3 attacks from 2 different attackers who were attempting to gank him at the same time. However in PvE I would expect to block a fair bit more than that.

As regards the 'anti tank' flames above, though, guard can only work if very close to the caster - which usually requires /sticking to them. Not something that can be done whilst charging the enemy or lined up in front of the casters (being mezzed/nuked/debuffed/stunned/rooted - yeah I really like that idea who ever posted it above).

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by Turamber


I'd refer you to Willowy's post above, as you will see from her signature she is the player behind Malevolencia - everyone's favourite Hibernian tank. She carries a hammer twice as big as her, and my goodness it hits hard

Her post demonstrates that the problems being discussed don't only happen in Albion, they happen in other realms also. There is far too much of this 'grass is always greener in another realm' hoohah being said by Albion's players. I bet they don't say that in Midgard/Hibernia oops...

EDIT: Can't spell..

What erm no uhm, I'm an alb! really I am!
There's nothing wrong in hib everything there is perfect! atleast that's what I heard, I wouldn't know cos I'm an alb


seriously tho, whilst these problems exists in all three realms, I would say albs have it worst, hibs are somewhere between, and mids have it sorted best.. still work could be done with in all realms

 

[Cavex ElSaviour]

eeehhm.. not beeing a full RvR gamer I too have a small tip that i've stolen from midgard. when zerg/charge tanks should work in groups of 2 or 3. A few days ago we had a nice small guild raid at odins, an equal/bigger group of middies were at mmg and we had a nice battle there. due to luck/tactic/smart guildies the casters werent able to nuke us to death, we lost cuz 3 middies systematicly killed us 1 at the time. seems to me that it's mre efficient to work in a small tank team when u charge instead of trying to prove your self. then again, im not a full RvR player.

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Ok, my apologies Turamber, I guess what I should have said is when you are supposed to guard us. Generally during charges, I don’t care if the tanks charge forward, since there isn’t really a lot a caster can do in a charge, since they can’t cast on the move, and if you’re charging, that means the target is out of range anyway so you can’t offer supporting fire. So, in this case, I think that its casters protecting tanks (since we can’t really nuke the target of the charge till the fighters have engaged them anyway, best we can do is try to nuke things on walls if the fight is at a milegate.

However, I do believe that during a ranged standoff (classic example being a milegate fight), I do think thta most tanks should be up there at the front with the casters/scouts to protect them from incoming arrows etc, and all those silly shadowblades, since we will simply die, nothing to it. Once we’re all down, mids charge through, mez you all and the cloth wearers get to watch you all get eaten from the grass

Sorry if my post sounded at bit ‘enthusiastic,’ but, well, that’s just because I’m a sore loser and I don’t like being sniped by some gimp-ass hunter ;-)

 

[Gabrial]

I posted a thread some time ago about a 'general' to lead the RvR warfare but people were saying there was much hatred between the guilds and that it wouldnt work. However, I dont imagine that everyone posting here is from the same guild so does'nt if prove we could work together as an effective unit?

I mean, people are obviously willing and recognise a problem (hence the number of threads on the subject) so who is gonna take the bull by the horns and say "Right - I'll lead us in an RvR battle. Who's coming with me?"

Like someone said, taking orders all the time is no fun but neither is getting ganked repeatedly

As for lack of communication, do you think its because there are too many people in the CG? Maybe the CG could just consist of Group Leaders who could inform people whats going on?

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by old.SadonTheGrey
Sorry if my post sounded at bit ‘enthusiastic,’ but, well, that’s just because I’m a sore loser and I don’t like being sniped by some gimp-ass hunter ;-)

I know the feeling! My little cabalist is perpetually getting one shotted in Thidranki. Thankfully some of the assassins aren't too bright there and spend time taking out my pet before turning on me...

Funny thing about tanks defending casters on the milegate/keep wall is that our presence can make things worse for the caster. We are much larger and careless (generally) in our aspect - meaning that we often get targeted for AoE effects.

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by Gabrial
As for lack of communication, do you think its because there are too many people in the CG? Maybe the CG could just consist of Group Leaders who could inform people whats going on?

There are some merits to this. Leading a defence in Hadrians Wall last week against some Hibs I found the chat group was continually being spammed with counter instructions/arguments over what to do -- when I'd already been nominated 'leader' for that defence.

Consequently a few groups went off to do their own thing and got slaughtered by the Hibs.

Conversely, however, no one likes feeling like a 'drone' and everyone wants to have a voice. If the game mechanics allowed for multiple chat groups co-ordination would be much better in RvR. But we are discussing here what we can do with the tools we already have of course...

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Thankfully some of the assassins aren't too bright there and spend time taking out my pet before turning on me...

LOL, nerf cabalists!!!

But, as far as the AE on a tank is concerned, in general battles are fought at bolting/sniping range for the majority of time, since no caster dare approach nuking range for fear of the enemies doing it to him/bolting/sniping

 

[spyte]

Intresting read heh so posting my thought's on the matter.

Awareness is a key element in RvR : By this I mean awareness of your Realm mates & of the surroundings.
Do you know what your main function is in RvR?

Wizard Fire = Pure dmg Dealer / Ice Keep defence and close up Dmg dealer, Earth Keep attack/MG attack and Army hold ups

Paladin S/S spec = Defensive Tank / 2H spec Dmg Dealer

Armsman S/S spec =Defensive Tank / Polearm Dmg Dealer

Merc = Pure dmg dealer

Infiltrator = Pure Dmg Dealer & elimination of primary Targets

Scout = Range Dmg Dealer & Elimination of Primary Targets

Minstrels = Fast Strikes & crowd control

Sorc's = Crowd Control

Cabalist's = Hmmm need to have a Cabby talk to me I'm not sure on thier abilities at all

Therguists = Same as cabby though they can be support Tank group, Support Crowd Control, Dmg dealer depending on spec

Cleric = Healer or Support

Friar = Dmg dealer / Healer

Primary Targets I consider are Casters & Healers
Pure Dmg dealer is someone who Inflicts dmg In big amounts or Fast over a short period of time.
Defensive Tanks Are our Caster Protectors should stay close and have guard up

When the call to charge goes up you really need the tank type dmg dealers to move first and fast, whilst defensive Tanks stand Guard. Maybe a second charge call for Dmg dealing wizzys and CC to move up with accompining tanks, on the second call the Primary target killers should also initate combat.

This is just my theory and im not sure how it would react to rvr but it should work.

The person who mentioned playing an alt on Excalibur server has a great point, It helps identify who the enemy classes are.

I envy no person the responsibilty of leadership but we do lack such people at present <sighs> But who would try thier hand when all they get is Flammed on the forums or flammed in game if they make 1 mistake, Personaly I would have anyone slandering a Leader put to the block and off with his head

Next point: Every now and then I just want to have fun and charge in was mentioned in an earlier post.
How true I feel like that as well but in a community game just to get your 10 seconds of fun you might very well have got 20 - 40 other people killed and ruined thier fun, How can you justify that?
If you really feel like that then run off Solo and hunt and dont follow a zerg.

Communication : Utmost importance many times im in a frontier, I hear of no CG running , Infact Walker seems to be at the forefront of any that get started, at least one person from everygroup should be invited and they in turn need to relay any Info thats called out of importance,
Spam in a CG should be cut down to the minimum save spam for group or guild.
That way Any command to charge or move to an area will not be misheard or not seen.

Well my Mind has gone blank so I shall end it here and add anything else i think of later heh

Taroc Wizard of 50 Season's & Proud Mryiddon of the Realms
Breathing Helps Paladin of 47 Season's & Gods Warder

 

[Gabrial]

Originally posted by spyte
I envy no person the responsibilty of leadership but we do lack such people at present <sighs> But who would try thier hand when all they get is Flammed on the forums or flammed in game if they make 1 mistake, Personaly I would have anyone slandering a Leader put to the block and off with his head

I think this is the biggest problem - anyone else agree? Maybe without the risk of a good roasting more people might volunteer?

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by spyte
Cabalist's = Hmmm need to have a Cabby talk to me I'm not sure on thier abilities at all

Although only still a lowbie I'd like to add my thoughts here. The matter cabalist is rather useful in RvR - nearsight, as all Albion casters will tell you, is an evil bugger of a spell. By casting this on enemy archers and casters we effectively take them out of the fight for a minute or two.

Root is useful for stopping a stealther escaping. DOT him to stop him from stealthing away. Now that the spec and base line DOTs combine its fun to cast both on a tank that is charging in your direction.

AOE DOTs are very nice in keep defence or defensive standoffs. Leaving the pet outside the keep gate you find the enemy players gather round nicely to gank it - giving you a good selection of targets

In this patch we also have a nice choice of insta cast debuffs, if you think that tank is carrying a ram ... zap! One tank going nowhere quick.

 

[case-rigantis]

last night in DF just got to shredders with my grop someone shouts "HIBS!!!" the group that yelled i proceeded to charge down the ramp towards the hibbies aggroing every shredder on the way as you`ve probably worked out they` all received EXP deaths because of this

now is this pure stupidity or a cunning plan to make the hibbies die of laughter?

Albs main problem is everyone wants to do their own thing people don`t even stick to their group let alone to the rest of the albs

i used to think the problem was cowardice i have begun to realise the problem is stupidty...

if in PvE a healer didn`t heal would you be angry?
if in PvE a tank didn`t stop the caster mobs nuking your group would you be angry?
if in PvE the mezzers didn`t bother to mez would you be angry?

all of the above in PvE cause group wipeouts...in RvR all the above cause group wipeouts hmmmm 2+2= ?
...

 

[kr0n]

Back in my active days, I gave up with albs early on. Hardly ever grouped with people outside guild, and if I did, they were people I knew were good and knew what to do. Too much stupidity there.

 

[Ezeine]

I think one of the main problems still is the fact that everyone doesn't identify hib/mid classes.

Last night I was playing a lvl 50 tank and had a fight with some hibs near apk with my grp and some other albs. There was a firbolg druid and a celt bard also there. Both happily healed mezzed away until they were both mezzed. I charged the bolg and broke the mez. Only reason he died was because for some reason he charged the albs. No one else attacked him before the suicide attempt.

Why werent ppl attacking him and the bard ? I noticed a lot of albs lurking behind and doing nothing. A firbolg dressed in green and healing away should be quite obvious to spot, right ?

Play some toons at hib/mid or get the knowledge how other classes look in the battlefield somewhere else. Really helps in RvR.

My 2 coppers.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Last night infront of mmg about 30 albs stood and waited there i just ran in and went for a hunter nearby next the groups of mids yet no one followed in,anyway another thing is about 20 hibs beat about 20-30 of us infront of amg then peoplem don't bother going back to kill them,half decide to take a keep in mid.

Sigh if a tank/fighter charges into a group of mids equal oursize follow in and help them don't stand there like a group of people who say they are tanks etc but really are just like a bunch of statues

Heh an inf even messaged me after saying well done,at least you had a go and did good on your own.

 

[gervase]

So much negativity!

I think its about time us Albs started remembering the times things DO go right...

/em he can think of many times groups of Albs have come out on top of Mids/Hibs - and not just due to the dreaded zerg....

Let people know what happened and how it worked!

 

[old.mattshanes]

Well as i said if a few charge into mids other albs should try and help,if we die oh well at least we tried and may of gained rp rather than nothing.

 

[dylan32]

We need a guide

As a relatively new tank to RvR, I'll give my own penny worth...

I play a 38th polearm armsman, who has only recently started RvR. I think it's highly improbably that Albion attracts all the stupid people...? The other realms experience the same problems as us. But, saying that, I have already observed many of the comments made above.

I don't think I'm a bad tank, I do try to go for the magic users, but I just never make it to them. I get messed every time (thus I'm saving for purge and maybe determination). I also don't recognise the other realms classes or what their capable of.

We need an experienced person to construct a useful guide, one that perhaps others can add to.

I have noticed a lack of scouts in albion (I do have a scout and know the difficulty of levelling and the prejudice that other classes show them). As a result, it seem that the other realms have a lot more ranged attacks than us.

So, does anybody know of a sensible Albion RvR guide? Or is anybody willing to construct one?

Cheers,
Dylan
Madwg - 38th armsman
Gate - 23rd scout