Our problem in rvr.

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Time to open up for a debate.
Why is it that we time after time screw up in rvr? Either its albs running away, staying back while others charge or charging like headless chickens.

Just now we we're in even numbers with mids at amg.
Someone yells "Charge!!!!" instead of making sure that everybody is infact buffed up and ready to charge.
Then people flock through amg, going for tanks/sb's
Funny how every mid/hib go after our CC first and we dont.
I was watching my brothers, who play a healer on mid/pryd fight against albs, he's lvl 45 and albs went after tanks instead of him so he could mez/heal away happily.

Can it seriously be so hard? To wait for everybody to get ready? To go after healers/casters first?

Granted the big lack of sorcs doesnt make the problem any better, but in most situations we should be able to do a whole lot better.

I hope you'll give this some thought and remember this next time you go to rvr.

 

[Turamber]

I agree whole heartedly Gombur. What helps a *lot* in identifying the key targets is levelling an alt or three on Excalibur - then you get to know what the healers/bards et al look like.

Of course it's not always wrong for tanks to engage other tanks, as it may save the lives of some of the Albion casters but, speaking generally, spot on sir. Hats off to the care bear.

 

[Sharma]

Watched about 20-25 albs run away from around 10 mids yesterday, shouted charge and myself and 3 other charged the others just stood there.........

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

We all know the problem exist, so would it be dumb and naive to think that we'd be able to solve it?

 

[Garaen]

AMG camping, it seems Albions never learn, if i want a good time in emain i SoS through and pick off loners. Was quite funny today, i stealth down, fully expecting to be hit by a SB, and then wanting it to be nuked, i was attacked i stunned, and looked around, everyone had backed up to near clipping range. I died due to two other SB's PA'ing me. Soon after i died i saw the trolls come through and all the albs ran, i kid you not, nearly everyone died because they ran.

Also people dont understand that there are casters that hit you very hard on the walls. Ive seen them being ignore quite a few times. Alot of people ive seen have picked a target they want and will go after that without looking for any "more important" targets.

Mids at the AMG have a huge advantage, so i dont see why all the albs just back of a bit and let the mids come out, if they come out far enough you could send a group around the side and kill the casters. Or at the very least even the playing field.

I personally am getting sick of emain, i only go there because i have the ability to get through the AMG without dying. Some people are quite content with running to the AMG in groups, dying, releasing then repeating. I hardly see tactics used in RvR, people just want to go straight for anything they see.

SB's are a huge problem, ive seen quite a few pick casters out from inside the alb zerg and make it away without anyone lifting a finger.

A bit of a rant, but i thought it was needed.

 

[Sharma]

ok ok read this and do it!

 

[Lochlyessa]

Always happens tbh, albs stand in range of the walls, and get bolted/ shot to death, and wonder why :s

But I really can't see how albion in general can overcome this.. most of us can't seem to realise that if we stick around for a while, we might actually get some rps! woo!

But still, until the 'omg we don't outnumber them 5:1 and have 67 sorcs for aoe mezzing' mentality dies out, don't see much improvements happening.

And i think tanglers are to blame tbh, lvling there lots, you kinda get used to running from lots of inc targets

 

[blaien Kayy]

Must admit i've started to solo alot in rvr now due to the tactics applied by alot of albion(maybe that should be lack of tactics).At least now when i die ive only myself to blame.
Best rvr i've encounted in emain was when mactavish lead from a created chatgroup all groups worked together and it was alot more successful.
I think the answer is giving someone the chance to lead rather than all shouting charge at once.

 

[wyleia]

A lot of tactics arent applied... it seems that when we meet an enemy force, everyone sees red and goes after first available target.. That target usually being a mezzed tank while the casters and healers in the back kill us. If we fought like this in xp groups we would never get grps.. (ie the one target and dont break the mezz rule).. I just notice this more because my broken mezzes, like in xp grps, come straight for me, except this time people are too busy soloing their own target to notice.

Kudos to the pallies who keep us up and alive, believe it or not they can stop midbattle and get some of us back on our feet with rez (Soulfly and Yussef).. Beautiful battle last week at nottomor, with guards pulled on us, and a fg of mids attacking us, yussef was rezzing us while in combat so we were able to defeat the mids with a full guard pull on top of us. If he had just sat there tried to solo everything and kill all the mids himself we would not have been able to take out the full grp with the guards on us as well.

But unfortunately this does not happen enough. In xp groups I notice what happens to my mezzes, as I do in RvR. I see red as well, but my spam is mezz everything I can find and pray some tanks get on those casters before they kill me... instead i see people bashing on trolls and letting the guys with the staffs run around freely in the back to shoot at me :/

In xp groups, its not every man for himself, as it seems to be often in RvR.

But instead of whining we need to figure out a way to solve this.. Im not quite sure random groups of albs in emain are the answer... Guild/Alliance groups working together, and practicing, actually having a clear head when they enter combat and TRUSTING the people in their group. Too many times I have to switch to lifetap when there is a cleric in my group because I dont trust the cleric to heal me.. and god knows sorcs should be ccing.. our dmg output is crap... we wield tons more power taking people out of the battle rather than trying to use 5-6 nukes per target to kill something. (for us non body speced sorcs that is

1. Practice
2. Calmness
3. Trust
4. Awareness

4 things I believe we need to work on... Be aware of your group members locations and their health... at least have the mini bar up to pay attention to this and try to keep track of the general location.. and ffs quit bashing on tanks when we got casters and healers in the back, charge them instead and screw anything wielding a big sword. leave those guys to me and the other ae cc-ers.

anyways.....

Wyleia Mythweaver
50th Sorc of The 30
http://www.the30.org.uk

 

[Generic Poster]

We need more carebears out on the field.

 

[Turamber]

Originally posted by wyleia
ffs quit bashing on tanks when we got casters and healers in the back, charge them instead and screw anything wielding a big sword. leave those guys to me and the other ae cc-ers.

Some good points there - particularly like the one about Paladins rezzing during combat as that is something that I also do. In particular its good to gimp clerics up asap as they have nice group instas to use even when they are at low power.

Some tanks *do* need to defend our casters though - with realm abilities like purge & group purge (ack, got to hate that) one can't rely on crowd controllers stopping the enemy tanks bashing on our own casters. Personally I see that as my role - I try to shield stun as many of the enemy tanks heading for our casters as possible, or to take out the biggest threat to them.

Funny thing is - when you do that you get complained at for not charging and thus, in some peoples eyes, being a coward. And when you charge some casters will complain about the lack of protection and that they're being left to die. Can't please all of the people all of the time I guess.

 

[old.Sko]

Umm, personally in zergs i go in the following order:
Dwarfs/Norses with round shield casting | Anyone with instrument casting
Kobolds/dwarfs/norses casting/shooting | Elves/Luris casting/shooting Or Firbie/Celt with pet casting
Anything else if i`m alive by that moment.

PS. But due to recent af bug, prolly makes sense to put casters on top of the list

 

[the_smurflord]

One of the troubles as an assassin I've had a lot in these situations is that when we charge, I often sneak past the tanks and go for the ressers and CCers. The mids seems to have their brains functioning at least, as their tanks often disengage from the alb tanks and come to protect their casters, twating me in the process. Their casters are then free to mezz our tanks and it's game over.
We do need to make a concerted effort to get albion thinking.

I sat stealthed on the amg in emain for an hour yesterday and watched the mids defend it. (A note to hunters: Truesight doesn't work through pillars and brick walls. You need to use a brain as well ). I watch the same set of albs charge the mids time and time again even though they were outnumbered 3 to 1. This is just giving the mids easy RPs and making them stronger. Don't waste your time and think for once.

 

[SilverHood]

think the bucketheads who charge have had their head squashed by a hammer too many times...

but please, don't stop

It's good rps for me... I will be RR4 next week if we can get more RP farms set up

 

[old.chesnor]

Can't speak for the behaviour of Albs in 'real' RvR. But I have noticed this in Thidranki.....

Armsman, Pallys, Mercs etc.. all seem to go for the trolls. Think its a macho thing to be honest, as having played an Armsman, there is a psychological "I am t3h invicibl3!!111" affect when you slip that plate on and whip out your polearm. So they all toddle off to kill the biggest, hardest target to prove how great they are. Meanwhile, the Middy classes that actually win battles (casters and healers) are merrily doing there stuff. We lose, /release, rinse and repeat.

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

I TOTALLY agree, especially with Wyleia, she couldn't be more right about formations. In every open battle in Emain, on the Albion side, the front line is made of casters and scouts. On the front of the middie army is ALWAYS the tanks, with a few stealthed hunters. Before either side charges, the hunters de-stealth, drop a few of the defenceless Alb casters (most casters, even bolters are out of reposte range; except maybe cabalist nearsight, which they daren't use else every Mid goes for them). Now Albion is minus 5 casters, the mids charge. Sorcs get maybe one mes off, by the time its cast 3 runie bolts are already on their way to the cc guy. Wizards and theurgs managed to nuke two or three charging tanks to death (they at the front so seem most naturaly target), consequently the healers are still alive, behind their screen of tanks. Alb fighters finally charge, get messed, then our casters are ripped to shreds by trolls whilst the enemy nukers make short work of the mesmerised tincans.

Happens every time, also at milegate standoffs; when albs are on MMG walls, note that the Midgard from line doesn't consist of runemasters and spiritmasters, everything is in there, egenrally making it more difficult to choose targets etc, with tanks protecting their cc'ers/nukers. Oppositely on Alb side when at AMG we have a line of casters vainly trying to get into range, nearsighted, bolts/sniped then dead, with the Midgard charge through AMG coming shortly after making short work of the Albion fighters.

 

[Turamber]

Ummm yes, its all those tanks fault of course ... why didn't we see it all before What a load of cobblers.

 

[old.Jadow]

Well Tur it kinda is... the front line of those stand offs is always infs and 3 or 4 tanks who run forward to tag a mid with a crossbow hoping to get 2 RP when someone more competent kills him later and provides the mids with an AoE target which then causes all the stealthers to be revealed...

One of the reasons I stopped was the general incompetence of about 70% of the Alb tanks.

If the Alb tanks and casters combined their efforts they could control the situation to allow the infiltrators to do our job (killing casters and hunters). As it is we have to play a silly 'submarine warfare' game against the well supported SB's who always get healed, buffed and helped out while we wallow in the front with no help whatsoever from our realm 'mates'.

I can't remember the last time I was in a non guild group where I didn't have to -beg- for healing/cleric or friar buffs/dmg buffs/ask for healchant when DoT'd that sort of thing.

edit: typo

 

[dakeyras]

I think Albion's problem is fundamentally a lack of communication. I may be wrong but when we decide to charge it takes too long for you guys to respond cohesively.

All mids, irrespective of level, are all in the emain cg. The first action on logging on is usually to get the emain cg invite if you intend to RvsR in emain.

As a result everyone knows what is going on. Everyone knows when to charge, when to withdraw, how many albs inc etc.

If you guys do use a cg then it appears not to be working...or it is being reserved for only the 'elite'

When Albion does respond together there are some awesome battles which is much better than the daily AMG-APK express.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Turamber
Ummm yes, its all those tanks fault of course ... why didn't we see it all before What a load of cobblers.

Turamber. I don't really have an opinion or an axe to grind on this subject. I am not blaming anyone, or criticising anyone. I am just telling it like it is, based on my experience. Your experience may differ, and probably does.

But I do get bored of seeing the tanks wade in for some macho-man action "WHAT DO YOU MEAN JOO CNAT SOLO ORANGES..I CAN SOLO RED..HOW ,MUCH U GOT IN TEH POLEARM!!!!11".

Of course, not all tanks are like this, but Albion seems to suffer with a larger than normal population of brain-dead tanks (OMG POLEARM ROCKS!!!111.....I DONT HAVE A STYLE CALLED TAUNT!!! <-- actual quote btw from a 26th season Armsman)

Plate armour's got a lot to answer for...

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Originally posted by old.Jadow
Well Tur it kinda is... the front line of those stand offs is always infs and 3 or 4 tanks who run forward to tag a mid with a crossbow hoping to get 2 RP when someone more competent kills him later and provides the mids with an AoE target which then causes all the stealthers to be revealed...

Thats exactly what happens and I love it.

Little Tank test:

1. Do you put guard on the most valuable caster/healer/cc in your group and stay near them?
a) [ ] always
b) [ ] sometimes
c) [ ] uhm, what is guard?

2. Do you have a /face macro in your main quickbar and watch your healers/casters health?
a) [ ] sure
b) [ ] nah, I need the slot for a style

3. Do you run in front of your casters/healers/cc'ers when moving around?
a) [ ] always
b) [ ] nah, I dont want to get mezzed

4. When you charge you go for...
a) [ ] the first target F8 provides
b) [ ] those mean Trolls aka guys with the biggest flaming weapon there is
c) [ ] they guys with the small shields and no big hammers out

5. When you are mezzed you...
a) [ ] get some food supplies since you gonna die anyway
b) [ ] start whining about Hib/Mid Uber CC
c) [ ] try to identify valuable targets to go straight for them when mezz breaks no matter how many enemies wack you

6. When you hold a MG you...
a) stay behind it, rest and watch your back
b) stand on the battlement to see whats happening on the other side hence providing ae targets

a b c
1. 0 1 2
2. 0 1
3. 0 2
4. 2 1 0
5. 2 2 0
6. 0 2

0-3 points: consider yourself a good tank
4-8 points: you are cannonfodder but good enough to slow down the wipeout of your group
9-11 points: hell, get a brain!

 

[Meatballs]

mid trolls get an advantage being good tanks on the battlefield, they make it hard to target or see anyone behind them :d

I like to takeout bards, but healers are near fucking impossible to takeout pre-mid battle.

 

[old.Kladen]

i agree totally on the fact that albions dont go for healers/casters

i end up running thru the tanks and getting to the caster on my own only to get nuked on by all of em,

why cant you albions use your common sense!!!

 

[Murcalumis]

Although I'm not a big RvRer myself, I know that this does happen. People are indecisive; sure. And people mess up and do the wrong thing from time-to-time; sure.

But, I happen to think, that this whole complaint, or whine, or whatever you want to call it is a case of 'the grass is greener' syndrome. What I mean is that you're concentrating on the bad things, and yes they do happen, but sometimes we get it right. Sometimes. I'm pretty damned sure this sort of thing happens in the other realms sometimes, but sometimes they get it right, too. That's what you focus on; them getting it right and us getting it wrong.

I don't think it's a case of 'omfg alb aer teh cowerdEs!"!!! and mids aer teh r0x'. I just think it's a game-wide issue of players being indecisive and not wanting to rush in first and die.

 

[old.Jadow]

Originally posted by Meatballs
I like to takeout bards, but healers are near fucking impossible to takeout pre-mid battle.

Healers go down fast as hell if you know how/when to time your stun on them - ask Louise for proof of my personal expertise on this matter

 

[Turamber]

Reading the post through Albion's tanks are advised to:-

1) Be at the front of the ranks
2) Always protect the casters with guard (which only works if you're within spitting distance of them)
3) Charge the enemy! (Also known as: "Die and let the casters get the realm points you selfish tossers!!")

Am I the only one to see a problem with doing all three at the same time?

Because of the game mechanics (eg. I can only shield people in my party and not any good looking cleric/caster who catches my eye) our first priority is ALWAYS to the group we are in and not the larger scale situation. If my casters are having a problem with archers, or are afraid of assassins at the back, then I will go back and defend them.

To those that think tanks should always be in the front like that makes me a bad tank. To my group that makes me a good group member.

People always seem to think the grass is greener someplace else. I've played a caster in the battlegrounds and I know the pain of when the tanks run off to bash other tanks - hell the Mid/Hib tanks there do *exactly* the same thing - and I've played a tank in 'regular' RvR and I know the pain of being the first through the milegate and mezzed/stunned/nuked to death only to lie unrezzed while the rest of the Alb's pick up the realm points going and cover themselves in glory.

In short: don't blame the tanks because it's a collective problem. If you think that Midgard or Hibernia always do it perfectly then please be my guest and bugger off there. And I will lay good odds that they have similar problems.

 

[old.willowywicca]

well said turamber, people seem to want tanks to do 3 things at once then complain cos we're doing one and neglecting the other two, of course, the solution is obvious.. we need a 3 : 1 ratio of tanks to other classes.. that way for each other group member there will be 3 tanks to do everything they desire, of course this would limit us to groups of 6 tanks and 2 others DOH!

seriously people tanks do the best they can, they have no aoe (excluding thanes) minimal CC (if you count weaponstyle stuns as CC at all -- at the speed you use up end you won't be using these for long in a fight ). mostly all they can do is take some hits and distract people from hitting you (<--- trolls best at this of course), and on rare occassions they get in range of someone else and actually get to hit them!! it's shocking stuff when it happens and everyone is thrilled by it!!

oh and I scored 3 on jeriraa's test, bloody questions about guard hehe, htf can I guard someone with a bashing hammer? good for bashing bash bash, no blocking

also need to figure out some way of having a /face macro on hotkey bar.. having ten slots would solve that.. I could even have sprint on main bar then, ah perhaps one day in a patch far far away....

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Oh c'mon... I'm playing rogue, tank, caster and healer and I know what I'm talking about.

Guarding casters does not apply when charging. It's needed at MG standoffs. Whenever Mids hold a maingate I see casters in the Alb frontline trying to do their best to clear the battlements but our casters/hunters have heigth advantage hence slightly higher range. Your casters NEED guard to do their job and not to earn more rps than you.

When charging guard is pointless on casters but helps alot on other tanks if they go for the same target. If possible have a rouge in your group to spot a valuable traget (healer/nuker) and assist him to get that target before you charge.
Keep an eye on your casters/healers health bar and if they get hurt use /face to find them and help. Usaly its the hybrid classes that go for supporters. The few real tanks (warriors) go for your tanks.

About that 'let tanks charge and die so casters earn the rp's' thingy... plain dumb! I'm wearing studded armor and survive most of the charges bcz I dont mess with tanks but go straight for the casters. The trick is that your speedster must not attack before every melee is in combat. This provides you the chance to rush straight through the line of tanks and get the supporters. It's not the 'I hit for 400 on ornage con tank!!!1' armsmen that kill the tanks. It's the casters! 400 damage is a joke compared to a damage specced caster nuke and they hit you every 2 secs when properly buffed.
A tank might deal nice damage per blow but the overall damage over time of casters is waaaay higher.
When I play caster I have my /assist *maintank* macro ready and I'll nuke whatever target he provides me. If you attack him you are the target so you better kill me first!

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
Oh c'mon... I'm playing rogue, tank, caster and healer and I know what I'm talking about.

Guarding casters does not apply when charging. It's needed at MG standoffs. Whenever Mids hold a maingate I see casters in the Alb frontline trying to do their best to clear the battlements but our casters/hunters have heigth advantage hence slightly higher range. Your casters NEED guard to do their job and not to earn more rps than you.

When charging guard is pointless on casters but helps alot on other tanks if they go for the same target. If possible have a rouge in your group to spot a valuable traget (healer/nuker) and assist him to get that target before you charge.
Keep an eye on your casters/healers health bar and if they get hurt use /face to find them and help. Usaly its the hybrid classes that go for supporters. The few real tanks (warriors) go for your tanks.

Okay first thing, if a tank does charge, there is no way in hell he can get back in time to protect a caster who is under attack, not a chance of this under any circumstances. You either charge and forget about casters, or stay behind and defend them exclusively you cannot do both.

as for charging through the ranks to the enemy casters, I find this rarely works as not enough other tanks will do this.. end result, all the casters see you and nuke you to death, then continue frying the tanks who are engaging other tanks.. I still do it tho in the hopes that one day some people will join me new af buff bug has been helpful with this, you actually kill a caster sometimes before being fried now..

 

[old.Plebo]

Originally posted by old.willowywicca


as for charging through the ranks to the enemy casters, I find this rarely works as not enough other tanks will do this.. end result, all the casters see you and nuke you to death, then continue frying the tanks who are engaging other tanks.. I still do it tho in the hopes that one day some people will join me new af buff bug has been helpful with this, you actually kill a caster sometimes before being fried now..

Which does suggest that the thing we need most in Albion are leaders. We need to have some people that we know can lead RvR situations and follow their orders....if they get it wrong, then we shouldn't flame them, but should let them learn from the experience.

In RvR situations where there is a chat grp going, the results are much better. This then improves even more when someone actually takes command.

For example, in willowywicca's example, if all the tanks are told by the leader to attack the casters, and they did it without hesitation, then we'd get results.

I know that acting like a mindless zombie and following instructions exactly isn't the most fun in the world, but historically, the best armies were the best because they followed orders to the letter.

Perhaps we should concentrate on RvR leadership, and have some top players who are up to the task. I know there are already a couple of players who can do this role, and it turns the tide of RvR.

Whenever i'm in RvR, and I see the Mids wipe out larger grps of Albions, in most cases I think they have won fair and square due to their use of tactics. They obviously have leaders and they will outflank people, attack certain classes, all charge at the same time, etc.

The Hibs, in my limited experience of meeting them, also seem to employ some tactics as well.