Opinions on Mine-Discing please.

[old.Nicodemus]

First off, let's try to keep this from degrading into a flame post.

Anyway, I'm trying to convince Poker to add a new feature to the next version of BW Admin mod. Namely, the ability to vote to disable mine-discing. I've already figured out most of the code myself, so I could probably make the necessary modifications myself, but that still wouldn't get the feature onto my favourite servers. Bear in mind, I'm not asking to eliminate Mine-Discing altogether, but I would like to be able to vote to disable it.

And so, at Pokers request, I'm starting this thread to see how much public support there would be for this feature.


I'll try to highlight a couple of the Pros and Cons of Mine-Discing to maybe help understand the situation a bit better, and try to let you understand why I'd like to see an end to Mine-Discing altogether.

Pro: Mine-Discing helps to redress the issue of heavy skiing. It makes no sense that a heavy should be able to cross the map faster than a light. Mine-Discing gives light defenders that extra 'punch' to take out the heavy offence before they can do too much damage.

Con: Mine-Discing makes one-shot kills possible in Tribes against unshielded lights and medium armours. When Dynamix worked out the original game balance they never intended for anyone to be able to make a one-shot kill, except, of course, with the mortar. Mine-Discing can be a base engineer's nightmare, especially on maps like RollerCoaster. For example: You're busy trying to bring your base back online after a complete trashing, only to be killed by a mine discer you didn't even have a chance to see - it's annoying and, more importantly, subtracts from the fun the victim gains from the game.

 

[old.Annexed]

Well....

Being an out and out capper, the idea certainly has wonderful implications. Frankly, half-decent cappers would easily be able to cap out Snowblind in a matter of minutes. From my extremely biased perspective - wonderful!

More realistically though - Maps will fly by on servers - which can be good as some take skit loads of time cause nobody can cap, but bad cause you'll just get into the game before it finishes.

LDs will get pissed off (another good point).

Overall though - if Poker puts this on to servers, I'd like to see a 2 thirds majority required to implement it. It would have benefits for caln practices cause it could teach LDs to use other methods of defense.

Last good point - will prepare us all for Tribes2 when the wonderful/bloody awful art of mine discing will be gone forever.

 

[Siven]

remove mine disking: NO. leave that for Tribes 2.

Why? 'Cos Tribes 1 needs Mine disking, AND if the option is put in, i wouldnt be suprised to see alot of people drop from the server.

gah..its been a while since i updated my sig LOL

 

[Sledge]

I'd be happy to see the back of the mine/disk.

Sledge

 

[Milkshake]

I, personally, hate the mine/disc. I can't do it myself, and i frequently am on the end of the duo.

But as with O sniping, and Heavy Skiing, and Base Trashing, it IS part of the game, and i don't think it should be removed.

/me's morals thwack Milkshake down

 

[old.-I^F- Knave]

Mine Disking rocks..

You should keep it because some people play games just to make up new startegies that were never thought of when the game was being made. It gives games new life and makes the game a lot more interesting.

I'm sure in about a years time well all be sitting around complaining about how those pesky lights in there G-Bikes will keep on ramming the tanks and blowing them up and mabye by that time i'll have got a new name on this forum





[Edited by -I^F- Knave on 04-11-00 at 09:57]

 

[old.Ewan]

Remove mine-discing? Then remove hvy skiing too.

Its that simple, mine discing has had much less of an effect on the game than mine discing. You said dynamix didnt include mine discing in the game balance - well they didnt include hvys being able to ski faster than lights on it either.

Right now mine discing is one of the few things that has stopped tribes degenerating into constant heavy spam, and i cant believe anyone wants to remove it.

Pro of removing mine discing - Light defence would no longer be able to kill me with one shot when im trying to cap.

Con of removing mine discing - When i take the flag back to my base, ill find that our flag is gone, and the map is stalemated. 29minutes later the game is over, draw 0-0.

Ewan

 

[old.mad12]

I hated mine-discing - absolutely hated it. But like anything, if one team uses it and another doesn't, it gives them a huge advantage. I use mine-discing now, and it's all too easy to take out defenders from behind one shot. There's no skill in it, and from my perspective my skills duelling (league game or not) have certainly decreased due to the lazy nature of using the mine.

Whoever said it above was right - keep it in Tribes 1, as you will NEVER remove it without overwhelming complaints, but look forward to Tribes2 where it will (hopefully) be mine-disc free.

 

[old.zach]

I think the base+ mod is what you’re looking for, no mine+disc but also no heavy o and slower skiing to keep the games balance.

Mine+discing does require skill, because hitting fast moving targets isn’t easy, if you don’t get your timing prefect you will loose a cap on levels such as RD, CC IR etc.

Fair enough you can get easy kills, but you can get easy kills with any weapon especially if your target doesn’t see you.

Mine+discs make capping tough on levels like SB but people still cap and it gives the defenders a chance against the millions of heavies.

Roll on T2

NeaR

 

[old.Crunchy]

I don't like mine discing it has to be said, however I don't like the idea of mucking around with gameplay at all. If you take out mine discing then that changes the gameplay balance, suddenly HD has trouble defending SB, you can't stop lights capping on IR etc etc. Worst of all: gameplay is different on your server than everyone elses. Unless it's changed in a patch where it's changed for everyone I say leave it alone.

 

[old.DNME]

mine disking is fair enough just unfair that alot of peeps have to use the script for it

 

[GReaper]

I think you're forgetting at why those defending need mine discing (as they seem to be the ones who use it the most).

What are you supposed to do with an incoming heavy? Sit around and wait for it to mortar you to shit? One of the main reasons that mine discing seems to exist is because of heavy skiing. If there was only light offense to deal with then the job of defending wouldn't have changed so dramatically.

The only suggestion I would have is to setup a base+ server, however I know this would end up extremely unpopular.

 

[Milkshake]

I think there was a Base+ server Once apon a time, but it got shut down cuz no-one used it.

Don't think i did either....

Milky

 

[old.[TMC]Santro]

I hate it! But it's a tribute to the game that this sort of tactic evolves. I'm not a practiced enough player to do this unless I sneak up behind a sniper and have half an hour to work it out without blowing myself up
The only problem I have with it, is the script which,apparently, no-one uses? hmmm! There are some big noses out there!

 

[old.Ego]

I am against ANY kind of voting tbh, to many people whinge about a map choice in league and ladder argueing they never play it when it is freely available on pubs but all the lamers vote it off!

If mine/disc is made votable 2 things WILL happen.

1. people will vote it on just coz they start losing and then the majority of the other team will vote it back or drop, leaving teams uneven

2. "Good" players will join the server, walk to an inv, immediately try to mine disc and if they can't they will drop! This will alienate the servers that support this vote (even if it is not on at that time).

I say leave tribes 1 alone!

Oh, and as for scripts, the only mine/disc script i use is BigBunnys thowcontrol which throws a mine out at full speed at the press of a key. I manually choose disc or plasma depending on situation, hell even mine/mortar is fun sometimes

 

[old.[CL]Marky Boy]

Hiya Peeps.....im all for leaving it alone....after all it has gone some way to address the heavy skiing....and does help to balance the game out again...if ur able to mine disc an escaping flag carrying light then your your skillz are mad and your welcome to ur kill AFAIC.....just out ov interest though..how exactly would you remove it??...time delay on mines??..cant carry mines if you have disc launcher??..(lame idea)..How??

 

[old.[DT]Karma]

Mine disking balances game play in a lot of ways, gives the D a chance. Leave it alone please

 

[old.Poker]

Preventing a player destroying his own mines or preventing them from harming players or reducing the damage from them until they are fully deployed would be some of the possible methods of implementation.

Some well thought out and polite discussion here, wtf is goin on?

 

[old.Zenith]

My tuppence worth

I've been following this thread for the past couple of days and held off with my view until now.

A lot of the "for" opinions centre on the ability of a light defender to be on a level pegging with a heavy attacker. Being able to severely damage or stop a hurtling heavy is fair enough. In this scenario, I can see the merit but I still disapprove of it.

Most people seem to have missed the point however. Mine-disking isn't used purely as a defensive measure. Most of the time it is used by offence to get a quick kill on the enemy defence or midfield. I've lost count of the number of times that I have tried to occupy an attacker (keeping him too busy to go for the flag) and he throws a mine in my direction followed by a disk 2 seconds later. A direct hit = a kill and splash damage is devastating if the attacker misses. If a light player pulls it off, then there is not much that can be done apart from to make a mental note and carry on. When a heavy player does it however... Ego said:

hell even mine/mortar is fun sometimes

There is really no need for a heavy player to use this tactic whatsoever. They already have a one shot, instant kill weapon with the mortar. To add a mine into that equation is just taking the mick.

My opinion is a grudging "Leave it alone". I would LOVE to be able to stop mine-disking, but it does provide a needed means of balancing against HO. I am looking forward to T2 for more than one reason. One of the reasons though is that there will be no mine-disking. Another reason is that HO will not be able to fly across the map at AARRGGHH miles per hour! The good point though is that the gameplay is going to be balanced as much as possible. I think a good analogy would be "Scissors, Paper, Stone". For every tactic, there will be a strong countertactic.
________________________
Zenith
Tribes playing bloke

 

[Milkshake]

/me stands and claps

Zenith, got it in one kid

Counter-tactic is sooo right...

First it was HD v LO...so HO was introduced to get rid of the HD.
Then the HD seemed to be too slow to manouver, so alot more LD was used....

I'm just waiting for all 4 Offence to become Light again, and we can sing Elton John songs.

Milky

 

[old.Iggu]

i am nothing without that option!

 

[old.Nicodemus]

Well, it seems that the majority of people don't want the option added. And, going by a lot of the arguements put forward here, I'm beginning to agree. As much as I hate it, it looks like Mine-Discing is here to stay.

So, now what I'd like to see is a base+ server set up sometime. Could be interesting for the next Barrysworld Megagame to be played on base+.

/me runs off to convert BW Admin v5.0 to run base+

Marky Boy: Using the mine code from base+ I've made it possible to switch between base and base+ mine behaviour during a game.

 

[fatgit]

MD

While I see the point of cappers etc about MD, remember, what chance have us HD got againts Skiing lights & HO ?
Before Heavy Skiing took hold, I could easily hold off cappers & HO with disc/plasma & turrets.
Now, HO comes in at fukkin high speed & cappers can shoot in, grab flag & fuk off faster than shit off a stick, htf do u D vs that ?
Turrets are useless on most maps, cuz the nme shoot past em.
If you remove MD, u have to remove skiing completely.
The only other option is limit MD to Heavy with shield or something.

It IS as much a part of the game as Skiing, Mortar Spam & O sniping (tho wtf any1 has against O sniping I dunno, but thats another flame/thread )

Tribes has evolved since I started to play.
When i started, turret monkeys were like gold dust, DX could be won or lost on turret positions.
Pulse/motion sensors were critical.
Now, sensors are used to slow down the nme skiing into ur base, & not much else.

Tribes will still be played after T2 is released I think, for a while anyway, and while Id love to see it go back to how it was, I dont think its possible.

MD'ing evens the game out a bit due to skiing. If u remove one, u have to remove both.

I've been HD for over 18months, Ive adminned dozens of games, played on countless pubbies, and I can tell you, remove MD, and D has no chance at all of stopping the nme attack, when that happens, I quit tribes.

|NM|fatgit

 

[old.Crunchy]

Gawd yer, I'm having flash backs of turreting DX and SH now

 

[Milkshake]

Those were the good old days eh? When APC's were commonplace, and a good turretplacement could stop an army.

/me lies back in his rocking-chair and puffs at his pipe...

 

[old.Poker]

I'm sure Wizard knocked up a BWAdminBase+

I'll look into it when I get a mo.

 

[old.Nicodemus]

I'll probably do the update anyway, since Dynamix released a newer version not too long ago and if there is a BWAdminBase+ out there, it's probably not using BWAdmin 5.01 code. Besides, it'll give me something constructive to do.