Opinions of the UK public plz

[oblimov]

I’m sitting here in my reasonably well-paid job and I’m wondering why we bother to work at all in the UK

I was looking at the Child Trust Fund and thinking it was an excellent way to save for a child’s future (me and the missus are aiming to have kids in at least 5 years) and I investigated more.

I was shocked to see that it’s only available to those on Child Benefit, i.e. the unfortunates of the land

Now this got me started again on my usual rant about the UK and their total lack of incentives for people willing to work away and pay their taxes to improve the country

This country seems to punish the workers and in attempting to destroy the poverty gap seems to be aiming to give people not working the same lifestyle and income as those who work

I’m curious as to why they do this as surely the people who’s lives are better are working for this right?

I don’t sit on the couch all day watching tv and sleeping in till the afternoon, I have to wake up at 6 each weekday and work a 40 hour week for the privelages that come with me working

I’m struggling to pay back my student loan as this government thought I should pay my own way through my education, all very well but why then do they allow people from a family which has no workers go through Uni. For free? And I know some people will say ah but it’s too give them a better chance in life

Do we normal people not deserve the same chance in life?

Also in terms of council housing, why is it so difficult for myself to get a council house, giving that I work full time and make enough money to pay the rent comfortably whereas they give the housing to those who don’t work and will then have to pay for them to live there.

Then now this is the joke! Give them the right to buy their council house (where do they get the money?) and then sell it making a ridiculous profit, which in turn is one of the reasons the market in the UK housing seems to be rising so sharply.

I know of at least two friends who stayed in quite expensive areas who have had unemployed families move into 200K+ bungalows as they sold up their bought council houses and made a fortune

The govt encourages people to have children as there is a declining population but why then do they only reward those who are unemployed to have children? The govt £500 a child payment is only available to those on benefits, surely this is creating a no win situation as the child will be paid for by the state during its life and then sent to Uni. With the states money and then if they’re lucky they might get some tax out of it

However its been proven that a child’s parents are the most influencing behaviour on its life and attitude so clearly a child born into a family of unemployment will view this as the norm more than a child born into a hard working family?

My parent both worked extremely hard and still do and will be lucky to have the luxury to retire

However the benefit system in this country puts away private taxpayers money into private pensions schemes and isa's for those on the dole to allow them a comfortable life to "retire" on.

I might be mistaken but why should some people who have struggled all their life’s not get the chance to retire and enjoy life whereas people who currently live like they are retired (i.e. no work) are better provided for?

Just makes me fuming mad when I think how much of a mess this country is in now: (

Was wondering if im alone in my views or if anyone else thinks that theyre working lifes in this country are only benefiting the wasters of society

 

[tris-]

i agree. having a job is a waste of a life, when you can sit at home, breed 10 kids then go on benefits. on benefits you get to enjoy the same life as me probably (im on £11,200). hell, you only need 5 kids then you can earn £40k a year off the government.
instead of paying us, why dont we work for free? we may as fuckin well do that. just give my pay to that scruffy fuckin scum down the road please mr blair, they will get it anyway id rather not see it. if it was upto me we wouldnt be giving any benefit to the lazy, if they cant afford to have 5 kids then they shouldnt be doing it. the kids would goto able families and the parents to prison (and no, there would be no luxuries like inmates have now, it would be 4 walls and a bed with left over school dinners for food, so dont say it would cost us even more to do that).
you know how much my mother pays in taxes per year? £8k. she is paying for a small family to live a lazy life.

 

[oblimov]

m8 im glad im not alone i was starting to think that

I feel ur mums pain i pay about 5k in tax a year

One thing that annoys me is they keep saying that all these benefits are there to make the lifes of the less fortunate better

How come then diabetics have to pay for needles and heroin addicts get them for free?

How come children in a family which makes 15K have to struggle through their education and pay for everything wheras a family who makes more than 15K on benefits are paid to go to school?/

WHen i was in malta i was in tears when i saw how much the children there wanted to go to school, to get to school you had to have a pencil and a pad and if you didnt you werent allowed in

I took a massive box of pens and paper and the kids where so grateful at being able to be given the chance to learn, whereas the ungrateful scum here want to be paid for the privelage of free education

 

[Hawkwind]

I was shocked to see that it’s only available to those on Child Benefit, i.e. the unfortunates of the land

Maybe a different thing now but even as a married working couple on good salaries (combined > 70K) I am sure we received child benefit at about £14 per month. Our kid was born in 2000.

Then now this is the joke! Give them the right to buy their council house (where do they get the money?) and then sell it making a ridiculous profit, which in turn is one of the reasons the market in the UK housing seems to be rising so sharply.
Was wondering if im alone in my views or if anyone else thinks that theyre working lifes in this country are only benefiting the wasters of society

Certainly not alone. The problem is not that it was allowed but the fact that it was allowed to be abused. If I remember rightly you only had to rent for 3 years before being allowed to buy it. I know people I worked with in the UK whose plan was to get on the 2-3 year waiting list, then buy the property at the earliest opertunity. Just absuing the system for personal gain.

What would put an instant stop to it would be for the councils to sell at market rate with only a small discount for being existing tenants. Not the whoping 40-60% discounts that have been handed out.

If you can't stand it any longer, do what I did and get out. Come and enjoy the expat life. Warning though 370mS lag to DOAC servers from Dubai

 

[oblimov]

Maybe a different thing now but even as a married working couple on good salaries (combined > 70K) I am sure we received child benefit at about £14 per month. Our kid was born in 2000.

Hmmm when i phoned them and gave them both mine and my partners salary (bout 55k) we were told we wouldnt be eligible for any child benefit

But yeah I think theres been a change as my mum n dad used to get something like a tenner a month for me and my brother but that was bout 10 years ago.

What would put an instant stop to it would be for the councils to sell at market rate with only a small discount for being existing tenants. Not the whoping 40-60% discounts that have been handed out.

/salute

Superb idea but unlikely

Warning though 370mS lag to DOAC servers from Dubai

Lol managed to quit daoc but i wonder what WoW lag is like

 

[Ormorof]

child benefits is given to all parents, though you need to claim it afaik, it depends on the income of your household though and if the kids are in full time education (if they are over 16 )

i think my parents got £11 a month for me while im living at home, probably more for younger kids though

edit: found a link for you http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/childbenefit/

 

[Deepfat]

Personally I wonder why when I walk around the streets and country side of this country and see all the crap and pollution everywhere I wonder why there are unemployed buggers sat around doing sod all when they could be forced to dredge canals and rivers, pick up litter, repaint over grafitti etc. I think 40 hours per week of cleaning up the scum who leave this mess will persuade them that gainful employment might be a better idea...

 

[Ballard]

OK first off let me preface this by saying I am not an english citizen or resident but am currently living in the UK on a work permit and have been here for almost 3 years now.

To be perfectly honest dont work if you dont want to but dont think you are disadvantaged by the system if you do.

- Child Trusts are avaliable to eveyone and are a good way of reducing your tax liability. Is the trust you talk about are they government administered? If they are there is almost certainly a public alternative for you. Most accountants should be able to arrange this service. Yes the government may not be able to do it for you but you can most likely do it yourself.

- Education. Okay UK students have it fricken easy . No two ways about it. The average student loan where i come from is the equivalent of £12,000 pounds. When students complain about the burden this places on them they should rather realise how much their education has increased their own potential earnings. A friend of mine was at the same time paying £30,000 a year for his education financed through a loan... I admit that steep but seriously it does put the £3K pound loans alot of students have in this country into perspective.


- Tax. The UK is very similar to many commonweath countries in that it has a staggered tax system. i.e. feck all tax for the first portion of your earnings and then progressively higher bands. This system makes it seem like the more I earn the more tax i pay so why bother.. However just like all other commonweath countries there is often ways around paying the higher bands or reducing your overall liability. If you are involved in IT or another proffesional industry you can easily setup up a limited company with one shareholder (yourself ) and pay yourself via dividends. This avoids a large part of NI and less overall tax. I did this when i first got into the country and it it was extremely profitable.

- Okay Medical care. The UK is very backward on this. Yes you can use the NHS or all the similar government alternatives in other countries but medical insurance is a must in most countries now and it is weird that this has not caught on in a very wealthy country like your own.

- Okay Im not up to play with the whole council housing thing so cant comment. From what people have told me tho, yes the property boom has meant that ex council tenants have made alot of money on the housing market, but this amount really pales compared to what indviduals who invested in property would have made. I agree tho on your point that lower income people certainly have missed out on this... This is unfortunately typical of the pretty much the whole of the western world, so i agree that it is a problem but you cant really say it is a UK problem, Its just really the way capitalism works or doesnt work.

I know arguements should never been personalised but when i came to this country 2 and a half years ago I had no assests and a large student debt of £14K. When i go home near the end of this year I will be able to pay my debts off and buy a house with either no mortgage or only a tiny mortgage. I still see this is a land of oppurtunity you just need to know where to look, work hard and have a solid financial plan.

Okay Im not disagreeing with you that there is a part of society that has it tough because there certainly is. But this is a world wide problem with the western worlds meritocracy. i.e. whatever society deems to be the greatest merit gets the most reward. Its not how hard you work but what you do unfortunately.

 

[Ballard]

Hmmm when i phoned them and gave them both mine and my partners salary (bout 55k) we were told we wouldnt be eligible for any child benefit

And your complaining about this country not rewarding workers when youa re getting paid that much... you know that in most countries that would be considered to be the income of a very high earner..

 

[oblimov]

The whole problem with it m8 isnt the money to put through education its the fact that there is no universal appraoch to it

Some people have to pay full whack and others dont, my concerns are that those who dont on the majority appear to be just sitting back having a good time

Not many countried in the EU have the level of Benefits that we do, in some countries the practices of the UK's benefit system would never be allowed

What you say is true, you have worked hard and got somewhere and should be proud, I am also working hard, it just infurates me that if i were to have decided when i left school not to work hard, i would pretty much be at the same level just now

 

[Ballard]

Okay maybe im missing something.. How much does a single unemployed person with a child get? And how much would a married couple both unemployed with lets say 3 children get? What about If i was an unemployed bum with no children how much would i get? Sorry for the questions I just would like to ahve an approimate idea..

 

[Chronictank]

Education. Okay UK students have it fricken easy . No two ways about it. The average student loan where i come from is the equivalent of £12,000 pounds. When students complain about the burden this places on them they should rather realise how much their education has increased their own potential earnings. A friend of mine was at the same time paying £30,000 a year for his education financed through a loan... I admit that steep but seriously it does put the £3K pound loans alot of students have in this country into perspective.

While people on benefits get put though it 100% free, as for the £30,000 a year cost, thats what you get for coming abroad to go school. Its the same in every country, he would get the equivalent to the 3k a year if not free if he stayed in his own. I go to uni part time, live in the uk and pay £5000 p year on my course. Whereas if i was unemployed i would be paying £1000 not including gvernment subsidies big incentive to work dont you think.
The old system was much much better till thatcher destroyed it, the brighter kids would go uni and be funded by the government and the rest would go on apprentaships.

- Okay Medical care. The UK is very backward on this. Yes you can use the NHS or all the similar government alternatives in other countries but medical insurance is a must in most countries now and it is weird that this has not caught on in a very wealthy country like your own.

Because the current system in the UK is complete shite, the majority of plans such as BUPA that are affordable to most households is that they pay half youre medical costs you pay the other half, aswell as paying them monthly. On the other side of the coin such as the US they pay medical insurance and have all the cost paid for in the case of an incident.

But life is'nt fair, people suck and the world will inevitably end. But we get on with it the best we can

 

[Binky the Bomb]

I understand and agree with your point. Work and get screwed over time and again, slob and get petty letters to fill in. Doesn't seem fair does it.

But beleive it or not, it's even worse for disabled people now! A guy I know who's in college at the moment lost the use of his legs 4 years ago (drunk driver ran him down on day) and wont ever get the use of them back (spine damage). He's been seen by 5 experts who all say that he will Never walk again, so his mother signed all the forms to put him on disability (as you do).

Get this, he has to be permanently disabled for another year and 2 months before they will give him the full disability pack (car sticker and passcard to disabled facilities etc). Appartently, there is a ruling that if your permanently disabled/afflicted, you have to be validated for 5 years before they will accept that your problem is long term (I.E. he has to go see an evaluator for 5 years just to prove that his spine is still irreperable). Yet another guy on the same course is claiming 3 different kinds of benefits (including jobseekers) without any trouble.

Does that sound fair? Not bloody likely!

 

[oblimov]

And your complaining about this country not rewarding workers when youa re getting paid that much... you know that in most countries that would be considered to be the income of a very high earner..

As i said I work hard for that, my quam is that people who dont work hard get nearly as much as i pay massive amounts of tax and have to pay for all my healthcare (prescriptions + dentist etc)


I dont mind paying tax at all and i realise that im lucky to be in the situation im in, i just feel offended when I see that rather than spend my money on the countrys hospitals, crime etc i seem to be subsidicing lazy benefit scrounges

Figures published this month stated that in scotland alone 1 in 12 people are on disability benefit a figure which the govt cant explain as this would mean the whole place would be full of people with disabilities, something I fail to see when walk-in the streets

 

[Marc]

- Tax. The UK is very similar to many commonweath countries in that it has a staggered tax system. i.e. feck all tax for the first portion of your earnings and then progressively higher bands. This system makes it seem like the more I earn the more tax i pay so why bother.. However just like all other commonweath countries there is often ways around paying the higher bands or reducing your overall liability. If you are involved in IT or another proffesional industry you can easily setup up a limited company with one shareholder (yourself ) and pay yourself via dividends. This avoids a large part of NI and less overall tax. I did this when i first got into the country and it it was extremely profitable.

Up until 31st March 2004 this only worked for companies who's profits were in the region of 0-20k (after directors remuneration). The government introduced a nil tax band of upto 10k, as they knew that sole traders and partnerships would all cease and form companies to take advantage. For people whos profits as a sole trader were upto 15k, they would save the best part of 3 grand tax. Whilst the government can proudly say "last year, in the uk, 2 million new ltd companies were formed", what they dont tell you is that they lost (on my estimations) at least a billion pounds in taxes. Anyway, they have now changed it so you dont get the tax savings, probably to admit they fucked up, but still, 2 years of lost taxes, probably amounting to more than 1.5 billion pounds, doesnt give you a lot of faith in our government.

 

[oblimov]

I understand and agree with your point. Work and get screwed over time and again, slob and get petty letters to fill in. Doesn't seem fair does it.

But beleive it or not, it's even worse for disabled people now! A guy I know who's in college at the moment lost the use of his legs 4 years ago (drunk driver ran him down on day) and wont ever get the use of them back (spine damage). He's been seen by 5 experts who all say that he will Never walk again, so his mother signed all the forms to put him on disability (as you do).

Get this, he has to be permanently disabled for another year and 2 months before they will give him the full disability pack (car sticker and passcard to disabled facilities etc). Appartently, there is a ruling that if your permanently disabled/afflicted, you have to be validated for 5 years before they will accept that your problem is long term (I.E. he has to go see an evaluator for 5 years just to prove that his spine is still irreperable). Yet another guy on the same course is claiming 3 different kinds of benefits (including jobseekers) without any trouble.

Does that sound fair? Not bloody likely!

Doesnt surprise me m8

On the other side of the coin my fiances uncle ( a complete waster) has been on disability for 35 years with a slipped disc.

He worked for 5 weeks at 18 and then feigned injury and theyve never assessed him and he gets a free disability car each year, but they have 3 kids so they got him a big people carrier, his wife claimed disability for having migraines!!! and they both take carers allowance for looking after each other as well

yeah the smart kid = uni normal = apprentice was probs the best

 

[Ballard]

While people on benefits get put though it 100% free, as for the £30,000 a year cost, thats what you get for coming abroad to go school. Its the same in every country, he would get the equivalent to the 3k a year if not free if he stayed in his own.

No that was for being educated in his home country.... In many commonwealth countries a university education is alot more expensive than the UK. For example studying denistry or medicine at a government university typically costs $60K dollars a year.

 

[oblimov]

wow!

seriously? what country is this were talking about?

 

[Bracken]

mine and my partners salary (bout 55k)

And you're complaining about what? If you aren't financially comfortable on that salary then you're financial management skills must be pretty poor And if you are financially comfortable then what are you complaining about? You want others to have less so you can have more?

Of course there are some who play the system, and yes there is an earnings level where the net you earn from working is no better (or even lower) than if you didn't work at all due to the tax/benefit levels - but that level is still relatively low. To make an assumption that everyone out of work or on a low level income is so because they choose to be is like something from the Norman Tebbitt Bible Of Political Righteousness. Not everyone can earn 20k+ per year. Not everyone has the skills/education to be a computer programmer/ lawyer/ accountant etc. Society needs people to do lower paid jobs - it's only right therefore that society also enables those people to have a reasonable standard of living. I'm fortunate to have a good job and earn a decent wage. I also hope I'm mature enough to see beyond the end of my nose when it comes to understanding why we have a "benefits" system. It may not be perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than they have in many other countries.

 

[Kicks]

- Education. Okay UK students have it fricken easy . No two ways about it. The average student loan where i come from is the equivalent of £12,000 pounds. When students complain about the burden this places on them they should rather realise how much their education has increased their own potential earnings. A friend of mine was at the same time paying £30,000 a year for his education financed through a loan... I admit that steep but seriously it does put the £3K pound loans alot of students have in this country into perspective.

3k debt hahahahaha, pls try to get your facts right, UK students have a loan of about 4k per year. If you do a standard 3yr BSc, BA etc then thats 12k debt. I did 2 years at Uni and walked out with an 8k debt excluding my £1200 overdraft and £900 credit card bill almost 3 yrs ago.

 

[Bracken]

3k debt hahahahaha, pls try to get your facts right, UK students have a loan of about 4k per year. If you do a standard 3yr BSc, BA etc then thats 12k debt. I did 2 years at Uni and walked out with an 8k debt excluding my £1200 overdraft and £900 credit card bill almost 3 yrs ago.

And how much of that debt was for beer tokens for you to piss up the wall? If your time at Uni was anything like mine then it would be a pretty large chunk of it. So you got a 12k debt. Over the next 5 years how much higher do you think your earnings will be as a result of that education? You can be pretty sure it will atleast match that debt...and probably exceed it by a country mile.

Student life + increased earnings = damn right you should pay something back

 

[Mojo]

If you earn crap money then yes your probably better of on the dole in the UK. however if you earn a half tidey wage then you will do ok.

Low wage earners shud get insentives, I think those who dont work at all should get fuck all and fend for themselves (read starve and die)

 

[Chronictank]

And how much of that debt was for beer tokens for you to piss up the wall? If your time at Uni was anything like mine then it would be a pretty large chunk of it. So you got a 12k debt. Over the next 5 years how much higher do you think your earnings will be as a result of that education? You can be pretty sure it will atleast match that debt...and probably exceed it by a country mile.

Student life + increased earnings = damn right you should pay something back

5k x 4 years = 20k when i finish my course tuition fees alone

I also hope I'm mature enough to see beyond the end of my nose when it comes to understanding why we have a "benefits" system. It may not be perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than they have in many other countries.

Then you should also see there is no incentive for people to do these low paid jobs, why work when you can sit at home watching tv for free, in youre free house, with subsidised bull and a nice check at the end of every month

 

[Bracken]

I think those who dont work at all should get fuck all and fend for themselves (read starve and die)

I was on the dole once

 

[Bracken]

5k x 4 years = 20k when i finish my course tuition fees alone

Well done. Now go reap the benefits of your education and pay back your loan in good time.

Pretty simple really...

 

[Bracken]

Then you should also see there is no incentive for people to do these low paid jobs, why work when you can sit at home watching tv for free, in youre free house, with subsidised bull and a nice check at the end of every month

There's a little thing called self-esteem that means that most people who are unemployed don't want to be sat at home doing fuck all. Of course there are some - always will be. There is a problem at a certain, low level of income with the tax/benefits situation, but most people who can work WILL work.

 

[Chronictank]

Well done. Now go reap the benefits of your education and pay back your loan in good time.

Pretty simple really...

Wrong again, im paying £5000 a year BECAUSE i work. As it happens my pay is shite but i wont be posting how much it is on here, average pay is about 11k so lets take that for example. 11-5 = 6k, take away 2k for traveling to london everyday 4k left. Now i live with my parents cus i simply cant afford to move out as im sure many others are in the same boat. Whats better working my ass off for 4k a year (before taxes) or getting it all handed to me on a plate?

pretty simple really

 

[oblimov]

There's a little thing called self-esteem that means that most people who are unemployed don't want to be sat at home doing fuck all. Of course there are some - always will be. There is a problem at a certain, low level of income with the tax/benefits situation, but most people who can work WILL work.

Wish i had your optomism m8

The unemployment figures in the uk are so low because these people state that they dont want to work and are taken of the figures

Btw me and my partners earnings are good and im thankful for how lucky weve been ive never disputed that, what i dont like is seeing people who havent had the same struggle weve had with education and paying for everything and struggling through a very demanding job, sit back and make money from my hard work

I wouldnt mind if these people were in the sorry state that they couldnt get work through no fault of there own but the fact is the govt makes it more beneficial for people to stay at home and watch trisha rather than get a normal wage

Why should these people make the same money as i do?> ive been in education for bloody 20 odd years to get what i get just now, i hardly landed into my current situation.

 

[Mojo]

I was on the dole once

And your still alive :< that sucks

Seriously tho i did kinda mean habitual lazy fucks, not those who cant work because they simply cant find work or thru illness, but lets face it the system gets abused to fuck and back and as a tax payer it makes me cry irl :<

 

[Bracken]

Wish i had your optomism m8

The unemployment figures in the uk are so low because these people state that they dont want to work and are taken of the figures.

Those people also don't get the benefits - they get very little assistance from the state. Only people who are available for work get the benefits.

I wouldnt mind if these people were in the sorry state that they couldnt get work through no fault of there own but the fact is the govt makes it more beneficial for people to stay at home and watch trisha rather than get a normal wage.

You have a very restricted view of what constitutes "the unemployed"...

Why should these people make the same money as i do?

They don't . So you see, you're getting all worked up over nothing


Good thread btw - nice to have a good debate while at work. Beats staying at home and watching Trisha