One week to go, who are you planning on voting for?

[Ch3tan]

So I can understand from the above why you are voting Labour in the local elections. But if you don't like them then why vote for them on a national level?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Lol - you really are no genius - if you think homelessness is just down to poverty how come most people without jobs do not end up on the streets?

Yes, it's that black and white and simple, isn't it? You're being very foolish and simplistic.

4,672 "rough sleepers" is like 0.06% of the population in London. 15% increase on a low number is still a low number.

Regardless of the number, a 15% increase is still abnormally high and points towards genuine issues. 0.06% of a population London's size is still a lot of people.

The majority of homeless people in London are homeless out of choice. There's lots of opportunities for people to move away from being homeless if they wanted.

You are a fucking moron. You clearly have had no experiences in dealing with homelessness in real life. If you had, you REALLY wouldn't have said that. It's fucking genuinely hilarious that you think that.

Lots of opportunities? Lets hear them. There are a few who choose to be homeless yes, but they are in the MAJOR MINORITY. I'm sure I can pass on your incredibly insightful advice to the homeless people I know, they'll love to hear it.

 

[yaruar]

Lots of opportunities? Lets hear them. There are a few who choose to be homeless yes, but they are in the MAJOR MINORITY. I'm sure I can pass on your incredibly insightful advice to the homeless people I know, they'll love to hear it.

It's amazing how many people think there is some special underclass who just love being homeless. If you actually hear some of the stories most people would appear to be only a few bad decisions and bad runs of luck away from the streets.

That and the sheer amount of ex-servicepeople on the streets which is a complete traversty
Homeless ex-servicemen index | Society | SocietyGuardian.co.uk

 

[MYstIC G]

Well having written to my MP (Labour) in the current seating of parliament and been fobbed off, I shall be voting Tory. Reds need to go and I voted Yellow 4 years ago and it did fuck all.

Realities over theories any day tbh.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think you lot have proved my point nicely. Even people who aren't rich don't give a fuck about the poor

No, they don't give a fuck about your definition of "poor". As far as I'm concerned there's an adequate benefits system to keep the underclass in fags and Tenants Super, and there are some key gaps that need fixing (key workers for example). But I don't see any of the main parties doing anything about that anyway, because public sector spending has to fall no matter who gets in; that's not a manifesto issue, its a fact of life.

Over here there's a much more generous benefits system and its a fucking disaster, as it disincentivises people to get back to work enormously (one part of the reason there were so many Poles here was because the average Irish person has no incentive to get out of bed for less than 35K euro a year), and also takes money out of other parts of the public sector like healthcare (which is garbage compared to the UK).

As for the London homeless; sorry to sound callous, but the majority are there by choice (and before you slag me off as a Tory, I have done my bit for centrepoint in the past - admittedly because it made me look good with a leftie veggie girl I was trying to shag, but what the Hell); there's a hell of a lot of infrastructure in place particularly in London (which is almost the last place in the UK you have to be on the streets these days). As I said, most of the London homeless are there because of health or social issues, not direct poverty, which is the symptom of their plight, not the cause.

 

[Debaser]

All we are left with in this country is relative poverty - i.e. counting yourself as poor because your car isnt brand new, you cant afford designer clothes etc. etc.

These are the aspirational differences between people - if a government ever suceeded in removing those why would anyone bother to work in this country?

Thats why wealth re-distribution is wrong and its not generally targetting the mega-rich because they have good accountants - its the middle classes who pay.

Maybe I'm reading between the lines but are you suggesting that wealth redistribution exists today so people who lack aspiration can buy designer clothes?

Without state funded health, education and welfare - the reciprocates of wealth redistribution - do you believe our society would be any closer or further away from your definition of poor?

 

[megadave]

So I can understand from the above why you are voting Labour in the local elections. But if you don't like them then why vote for them on a national level?

Well the vote is for your local MP. I don't like the other parties either, so i might aswell do what's best for my constituency. And ofcourse to keep out the Tories.

 

[rynnor]

Maybe I'm reading between the lines but are you suggesting that wealth redistribution exists today so people who lack aspiration can buy designer clothes?

If you re-distribute wealth to 'the poor' without a clear idea of an end point to stop then you will end up doing exactly that.

Everyone who's not the wealthiest person in the world is thus 'relatively poor'.

Poverty still exists in the world but not in the UK by any reasonable measure - if you want to help the poor send your money abroad.

 

[00dave]

why are people so afraid of the tories? All this, let's keep the tories out at all costs by whatever methods makes me think these people have some sort of hidden agenda.
As far as I can see if you're an honest law abiding citizen and work for a living in a proper job you don't have anything to fear from the tories. However if you're a lazy fuck who just wants to live on benefits and laugh at the honest folk who bother to go to work in a morning, then you have nothing to fear from labour and likely the lib dems.

 

[Pfy]

why are people so afraid of the tories? All this, let's keep the tories out at all costs by whatever methods makes me think these people have some sort of hidden agenda.
As far as I can see if you're an honest law abiding citizen and work for a living in a proper job you don't have anything to fear from the tories. However if you're a lazy fuck who just wants to live on benefits and laugh at the honest folk who bother to go to work in a morning, then you have nothing to fear from labour and likely the lib dems.

You can also add to that the people that work for local government in bullshit jobs simply created to both massage the unemployment statistics and create a new generation of Labour voters.

 

[Pfy]

No, they don't give a fuck about your definition of "poor". As far as I'm concerned there's an adequate benefits system to keep the underclass in fags and Tenants Super, and there are some key gaps that need fixing (key workers for example). But I don't see any of the main parties doing anything about that anyway, because public sector spending has to fall no matter who gets in; that's not a manifesto issue, its a fact of life.

Over here there's a much more generous benefits system and its a fucking disaster, as it disincentivises people to get back to work enormously (one part of the reason there were so many Poles here was because the average Irish person has no incentive to get out of bed for less than 35K euro a year), and also takes money out of other parts of the public sector like healthcare (which is garbage compared to the UK).

As for the London homeless; sorry to sound callous, but the majority are there by choice (and before you slag me off as a Tory, I have done my bit for centrepoint in the past - admittedly because it made me look good with a leftie veggie girl I was trying to shag, but what the Hell); there's a hell of a lot of infrastructure in place particularly in London (which is almost the last place in the UK you have to be on the streets these days). As I said, most of the London homeless are there because of health or social issues, not direct poverty, which is the symptom of their plight, not the cause.

You don't have to be a rough sleeper to be homeless.

Seemingly alot has changed since I worked for a Homeless Persons Unit and spent several years doing Crisis at Christmas as there was fuck all availabl apart from endless numbers of hostel that were always very limited in space and a vacancy was certainly like hens teeth.

Throw into that equation that some hostels were dry only and an alcoholic person with no vulnerability under the housing act had almost zero chance of being helped.

All that said, I do agree that it is very rarely a direct result of poverty and is mostly poor judgement and bad luck (loss of job etc.) that causes people to become homeless.

 

[Zenith.UK]

We dont have any poor people in this country - real poverty is about not having enough to eat or anyplace to live which you can all get for free.

My jaw actually dropped when I read this, along with your further posts.
I typed up a long detailed response, but I decided to summarise it instead.

Your response (along with posts by others in the same vein) strikes me as part of the problem. "There is no poverty in the UK" because someone says so? I have no idea where you are, but I see poverty in my area every day. My area is recognised as being so economically deprived that it qualifies for European Objective 1 funding.
Regional policy of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Regional Policy Inforegio

The criterion for Objective 1 funding is "the GDP per capita for the region must be below 75% of the EU average".
I strongly disagree with your point of view. I'm making a particular point about keeping it civil.

=====================

00dave, the hidden agenda that you talk about is quite plain to see. Labour are trying to do *whatever* it takes to hang on to Government. They know full well that the opinion polls are against them and are even trailing 3rd behind the LibDems in some polls.

 

[Scouse]

No, they don't give a fuck about your definition of "poor". As far as I'm concerned there's an adequate benefits system to keep the underclass in fags and Tenants Super....

It's not my definition of poor. It's the definition of poor! I'll spell it out for you as everyone's brains have definitely left the room:

poor  /pʊər/  –adjective
1. having little or no money, goods, or other means of support

Homeless, because you've got a mental illness (which accounts for the vast majority of all homeless people in the UK) doesn't make you a member of a fucktard "underclass" - it makes you a poor sick fucker who needs help.

Of course, we could all just ignore them. Oh wait. We do. And we obviously don't give a fuck (even on a forum like this). Which is exactly my point.

I kinda expected it from rynnor but not from you


As for this utter shite:

Poverty still exists in the world but not in the UK by any reasonable measure - if you want to help the poor send your money abroad

Two things:

1) Define "reasonable measure".

2) Nobody is talking about giving poor people money!

We're talking about stopping people like me laughing all the way to the bank, paying 19% on total income whilst the mentally ill don't have the services they need.


But hey. Vote Tory. I'll be able to take another two years off work (at 36) just so I can continue to sit about getting stoned with the missus in a little dick-suck fuck-bunny paradise.

That is what a Tory vote is. (Whilst a vote for Labour is even worse).

BTW: I've been to India and seen poverty of the kind rynnor is talking about - and there's far less of a gap than you think between their conditions and those of the homeless in the UK - the centre of the "civilised" world

 

[MYstIC G]

That is what a Tory vote is. (Whilst a vote for Labour is even worse).

In your opinion

 

[Scouse]

In your opinion

This is true

However, I've demonstrated a real live case study in my argument.

Not one person has commented on the fact that I've only paid a maximum of 19% tax on my entire income since I started operating a Ltd company - and that was the original point.

I take it most people here think that's fair, whilst ex-servicemen sleep on the streets, unable to get it together mentally after witnessing horrors whilst defending my right to pay less tax than a nurse?

 

[Embattle]

Well having written to my MP (Labour) in the current seating of parliament and been fobbed off, I shall be voting Tory. Reds need to go and I voted Yellow 4 years ago and it did fuck all.

Realities over theories any day tbh.

Sadly none of them deal in truth or realities.

 

[00dave]

00dave, the hidden agenda that you talk about is quite plain to see. Labour are trying to do *whatever* it takes to hang on to Government. They know full well that the opinion polls are against them and are even trailing 3rd behind the LibDems in some polls.

Oh yeah I know that but I was refering to the people on this forum.

 

[Scouse]

Oh yeah I know that but I was refering to the people on this forum.

Who's got the hidden agenda then? I mean, seriously, what sort of "agenda" can people have on a forum?

 

[00dave]

Who's got the hidden agenda then? I mean, seriously, what sort of "agenda" can people have on a forum?

I suppose you're right we all do throw our opinions around like they're set in stone.
But what I meant is why are people here so afraid of the tories taking power, seriously I'm much more afraid of another 5 years of winky at the helm.

 

[Scouse]

Personally, I'm not "afraid" of it. I'm even quite looking forward to living under the (relative) "freedom" of conservatism again after years of Labour ineptitude.

However, IMHO, they're a bunch of selfish arseholes and whilst they make less idiotic decisions like Labour they also don't give a fuck about the poor and, frankly, I don't think we can afford to be like that any more

 

[ECA]

538 shows a small gain for conservatives+libdems and a small decrease for labour from a few days go.

308 cons
113 lib dem
198 labour

( thats w/ lib dems beating labour in the popular vote also - so FUCK you labour ).

 

[00dave]

oh yes and with reguards to the homeless ex-servicemen on our streets I place the blame entirely on the goverment and specifically the MOD. Most of you won't know what it's like to be demobbed but I can tell you if it hadn't been for my parents and the fact that I didn't join up until I was 22 and had worked full time up until then, I would have struggled when I got back on civy street, and I was just an MTD in the RAF.
I hate to imagine what the front line infantry boys have to deal with when they leave the forces both mentally and physically. One minute you have an entire admin department looking after you're income, taxes, bills, accomodation, food, next minute you have to figure it all out by yourself without any real help. And considering a lot of army lads have been in since they left school and a lot don't have families to fall back on they will suffer.

They call the leaving proceedure resettlement which is supposed to assist you in finding your feet when you're out, to me it seemed like a box ticking exercise performed by a civillian in a nice warm office, with a nice fat pay check and no other justification for said paycheck other than to patronise those who have decided to leave the forces early (ok maybe I just had a bad experience, but the whole thing felt like a waste of time to me).

 

[Tom]

Personally, I'm not "afraid" of it. I'm even quite looking forward to living under the (relative) "freedom" of conservatism again after years of Labour ineptitude.

However, IMHO, they're a bunch of selfish arseholes and whilst they make less idiotic decisions like Labour they also don't give a fuck about the poor and, frankly, I don't think we can afford to be like that any more

The over-riding principle of a Tory government, more important than anything else (both IMO), is smaller government.

I really hope they put many of Labour's laws on the bonfire, its a fire I'd gleefully dance naked around, while spitting at the effigy of Winky.

I don't have any pretensions about the Tories' "we care now" nonsense, we've had plenty of "caring" for 13 years and it hasn't really gotten us much beyond a crippling welfare bill supporting an entire under-class of people unwilling to work.

 

[throdgrain]

The over-riding principle of a Tory government, more important than anything else (both IMO), is smaller government.

I really hope they put many of Labour's laws on the bonfire, its a fire I'd gleefully dance naked around, while spitting at the effigy of Winky.

I don't have any pretensions about the Tories' "we care now" nonsense, we've had plenty of "caring" for 13 years and it hasn't really gotten us much beyond a crippling welfare bill supporting an entire under-class of people unwilling to work.

Agree 100%, I hope we can stop some of this bullshit.


Anyway, its all over now, Simon Cowell is voting Conservative, so in the pathetic society we live in today, it's game over for Gordon

 

[MYstIC G]

I take it most people here think that's fair

I think it's fair that you should be able to keep more of what you make when you take more of a risk. That nurse you use as an example is on a regular pay cheque. If your business was going through hard times you don't have that guarantee. It's called risk/reward.

I don't think any of the other horrors are frankly going to change under any of the three parties.

As I already said, Labour simply need to go. They needed to go 4 years ago and I gave your yellows the chance then, so where was the rest of the bandwagon last election? Oh, that's right, they were borrowing more than they could afford on their credit cards, paying over the odds for houses and getting cars on finance because the vast majority of the general populous is stupid.

The real problem is that they're still stupid now. That's never going to change.

 

[Scouse]

I agree with a lot of that. Humans are stupid monkeys that act in predictable ways given a coherent system for them to work under. (And I count all of us in that).

That's why the voting thang is a bit of a red herring. Without global reform of capitalism we can't fix all our social ills IMHO.

I've never voted Lib Dem before btw. But have known I'm going to for a couple of years.

As for Tom's post. Yup. That's why I won't cry if it's a conservative win. I'll just feel depressed that, whilst they will can ID cards they won't stop the biometric passport - which is the same thing.

Sneaky fuckers

 

[MYstIC G]

Indeed, however if I'm also selfish about my vote, which I think everyone is because it's there vote to do what they like with, I also think that the re-introduction of families being recognised in the tax system is very important. If we can't encourage the existence of families, then the larger social units (local communities, towns, cities) will never gel imho.

As for Tom's post. No naked dancing, please!

 

[Debaser]

why are people so afraid of the tories? All this, let's keep the tories out at all costs by whatever methods makes me think these people have some sort of hidden agenda.
As far as I can see if you're an honest law abiding citizen and work for a living in a proper job you don't have anything to fear from the tories. However if you're a lazy fuck who just wants to live on benefits and laugh at the honest folk who bother to go to work in a morning, then you have nothing to fear from labour and likely the lib dems.

Johann Hari: Welcome to Cameron land - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

If welfare is crippling it's thanks to an aging population - pensions make up the majority of spending, costs for the care of the sick and disabled come pretty high too, comparatively much more than the 'lazy' fucks. Guess who'll suffer most?

 

[Tom]

You are of course aware of The Independent's political allegiance to the Liberal Democrats?

 

[Ch3tan]

Johann Hari: Welcome to Cameron land - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

If welfare is crippling it's thanks to an aging population - pensions make up the majority of spending, costs for the care of the sick and disabled come pretty high too, comparatively much more than the 'lazy' fucks. Guess who'll suffer most?

Yawn, you can't trust any press article at the best of times, and certainly not during an election.