Off-topic Mafia #7 Game Thread

[old.Tohtori]

No, you deliberately argued illogically for metagame. Its valid, but as a game adjustment for that and your long voting stuff, the correct play is just to off you at the start of every game regardless of team.

You can be offended all you like

And i will be offended. Claiming something like that is a very serious offence to me.

I did stop and question it, but I came up very short with clues to tell me that Vasc was a townie and Fl3a mafia. It didn't take long, because there wasn't much or anything to look at in Vasc's case, and Fl3a hid his mafia-ness expertly. I know I usually take longer, but in this case I didn't want to torture myself with it, since I knew it would just be one guys' words against the other's. Plus the "we can still win on the next day" factor ruled in as well. I didn't realize we'd be toast for killing the wrong guy.

Aye, i think it was because of that that you rushed it a bit. Shame really, as i know that with one more night, there would've been a good chance for the town to win.

I get that there wasn't much to go o and maybe it just seemed rushed, just not like you so it's a bit, weird. You know.

 

[Levin]

I get that there wasn't much to go o and maybe it just seemed rushed, just not like you so it's a bit, weird. You know.

Thanks. I guess you don't think I'm complete shite at the game then. But I have to say too that we're forgetting Fl3a here. He played really, REALLY well as mafia. I'd be interested to hear what Iceforge thought we missed in the way of clues there. If it's okay with Fl3a, of course.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thanks. I guess you don't think I'm comeplete shite at the game then. But I have to say too that we're forgetting Fl3a here. He played really, REALLY well as mafia. I'd be interested to hear what Iceforge thought we missed in the way of clues there. If it's okay with Fl3a, of course.

Oh yes, fl3a played great, hell, fooled me all the way to the end and i was an "outsider" the rest of the game.

Just after claiming VAscs claim bull, it struck a bell in my mind. But that's 'cause i looked at it from my viewpoint ofcourse.

I've never thought you play this game badly, and lucky enough you've not been mafia while i was on the other side, but if you do become mafia, i do hope we get to team up sometime. Massacre

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh and ECA, you were wrong i this game, in every point, there's no denying that. My arguments against your logic were right. I wasn't mafia, so i tried my hardest to counter everything you said, to show i'm not.

If you think i should be killed every day, no matter what, then i guess i've won this game forever since it's really my strongest point that people don't know.

If mafia, it's a big bonus.
If a townie, it's a big defence.

 

[ECA]

Thanks. I guess you don't think I'm complete shite at the game then. But I have to say too that we're forgetting Fl3a here. He played really, REALLY well as mafia. I'd be interested to hear what Iceforge thought we missed in the way of clues there. If it's okay with Fl3a, of course.

There are a few, his lack of jumping on levin+pointing out tohts blatantly obvious comments, his vote for kirennia on day 2, and his voting to burn his teamy for cover.

 

[ECA]

Oh and ECA, you were wrong i this game, in every point, there's no denying that. My arguments against your logic were right. I wasn't mafia, so i tried my hardest to counter everything you said, to show i'm not.

If you think i should be killed every day, no matter what, then i guess i've won this game forever since it's really my strongest point that people don't know.

If mafia, it's a big bonus.
If a townie, it's a big defence.

lol

 

[old.Tohtori]

lol

Well put. Lack any resoning like you did during the game? Figures.

 

[Levin]

There are a few, his lack of jumping on levin+pointing out tohts blatantly obvious comments, his vote for kirennia on day 2, and his voting to burn his teamy for cover.

But two of those clues; not killing me and hanging his team member, could be seen as him being innocent too. Pointing out the Tohtori comment is a small clue but not strong enough to swing my vote, and i couldn't blame him for voting Kirennia (on day one though, wasn't it? too tired to go back and look.. no matter) when it was myself who started that wagon.

 

[fl3a]

comments on my plays from this game:

i think we got really lucky on day 1 with a kirennia bandwagon starting - one of the strongest defenses for my innocence was that i didnt vote for levin when tohtori put the 3rd vote on him. but then we were just playing percentages - the town wanted to lynch someone. since the lynch on levin was screwed up by me, its a 2/3 chance that one of the townies gets lynched and we come out on top out of day one, PLUS i get to look innocent having 'saved' levin.

then comes the night, and i really thought that tohtori is the cop. i would have thought that the play he pulled with lynching levin 'for the good of the town' would only be viable if he himself was the cop and could investigate one of the 3 others voting for levin. thus the kill on tohtori.

and then comes day 2 with the bandwagon on will. he was a made man in nearly everyones eyes since the start of the game, and with no chance to save him in sight, comes my 3rd vote. i think that i would have seemed less innocent by putting the 2nd vote on him, because effectively i was the one that condemned him to death.

night 2 - nightkill ECA, who is saved by levin. great going by him, hiding the doc status, with a bit more luck you would have definitely won (saving tohtori on night 1 for example). why i killed ECA: i knew that vasconcelos would be the hardest to convince of my innocence so i decided to kill ECA and team up with levin against vasc, since levin seemed (as toht pointed out) pretty eager to agree with me in this game on several points. but with the vasc cop claim there was really nothing for me to do other than bring out my best (and simplest) arguments against him and hope that i have done enough to prove my innocence. and after the lynch iceforge ends the game.

i think that townies could have won the game at several points, which were usually 50-50 situations that could have gone either way, and always went our way.

 

[old.Tohtori]

comments on my plays from this game:

i think we got really lucky on day 1 with a kirennia bandwagon starting - one of the strongest defenses for my innocence was that i didnt vote for levin when tohtori put the 3rd vote on him. but then we were just playing percentages - the town wanted to lynch someone. since the lynch on levin was screwed up by me, its a 2/3 chance that one of the townies gets lynched and we come out on top out of day one, PLUS i get to look innocent having 'saved' levin.

I knew it

But this was ofcourse ignored, even if it came from one of the most notorious mafia thinkers in the game

 

[Iceforge]

Well, a few thing stood out to me in this game, seeing how some would like comments that they can work with.

This one is nothing to work with, but it just stroke me as brilliant, if he had stuck with it.

Well i'm going for vote:fl3a.

Why?

Reasoning follows:

- Stayed very quiet, witht he exception of snipey comments. the "i bet you wont" was mostly haha, but had an undertone in it. (nothing solid there)

- Destroyed my plan to bring out the mafia(ifirst rel contribution to thread too), quite quickly too.

- Perfect cover to out my plan. Instead of voting, as they might have done if i had posted another way(saved levin eh *grin*), out my plan and seem innocent and also warn the rest of mafia not to vote.

- Defended Will in the "non defending" style we learned from last game. Defending via judging others votes(see fl3as post to Levin - page 2-3?).

This makes me believe, Will and fl3a are infact mobbies. I'm going for fl3a based on these, as i see no bigger reasoning.

But alas, he didn't stick to it, as Will and Fl3a ofc stopped doing the stuff mentioned after being attacked on it.

One thing about the last day, why I thought the town would have won when Vasconcelos roleclaimed was that I thought Levin would give him credibility, here is why:

If Vasconcelos was mafia, he had tried to nightkill ECA and failed to do so. If he picked to out ECA with a fake claim, the doctor would out him on it being untrue, but if he picked one of the others, he might hit the doctor and end up in trouble. Instead he confirmed the TWO people that Levin knew was town as being town, meaning he had hit a 50% chance out of luck alone, as the mafia would have no idea who was innocent.
Or, if Vasconcelos was really the cop, he had just spoken the truth and had no need for luck to be part of the equation..

Anyway, that was what I was thinking from the side of the line and sharing that information and waiting with voting would atleast have made sense to me. If Vasconcelos was mafia, there would be no way he would know that Levin knew that ECA was town too.

But again, easy to see when sitting with all the knowledge of who is speaking true, entirely different when playing oneself.

Also, towards ECA, an error he made in the game was really using circular logic in accusations. To me, atleast, it seemed his claim was that IF Old.Tohtori was mafia, all what he did pointed towards him being Mafia, hence he was mafia. But by removing the first assumption, the entire logic would break down. Instead we ended up with a very long arguement between two townies, which only serves to help the Mafia. Fortunately the town didn't fall for the mafia tactic of killing Old.Tohtori, which could have made ECA an easy target on day 2.

I won't mind going over the game post by post to find more things to everybody that I think they could improve, instead of just this pretty loose stuff if people wants it.

Anyway, just to clear it up, the doctor in this game could not protect himself, but I only told the doctor that. No reason to make that public. Mostly to test how the doctor worked compared to when he can't protect himself. Often with self-protecting being allowed, half of the nights, the doctor will just protect himself (everybody is closest to themselves), while a doctor who protects others can also use it to gather information about innocense that can be usefull, rather than conclude that he was himself the target of the nightkill, which really reveals nothing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Reason why i dropped my initial reasoning, was because of other townies.

When you're barraged with a plethora of reasonings, like ECA did, it gets really hard to keep to your own.

If i had kept to my original logic, which was spot on based on my own mafia experience, noone would've believe me.

The brilliant part from Will and fl3a was to stop acting like it. But then agian, if i hadn't pointed it out, there wouldn't have been any reason to hang them either.

I think, ironic as it is, i trusted Levin too much

He's played the townie, he knows how townie worked, so i dropped my mafia reasoning and went with him.

Though, i would've been dead night 1 anyway

 

[Iceforge]

Bah, meant that the mafia wouldn't have any idea who was the DOCTOR, ofc the mafia would know who was innocent

 

[Levin]

If Vasconcelos was mafia, he had tried to nightkill ECA and failed to do so. If he picked to out ECA with a fake claim, the doctor would out him on it being untrue, but if he picked one of the others, he might hit the doctor and end up in trouble. Instead he confirmed the TWO people that Levin knew was town as being town, meaning he had hit a 50% chance out of luck alone, as the mafia would have no idea who was innocent.
Or, if Vasconcelos was really the cop, he had just spoken the truth and had no need for luck to be part of the equation..

Anyway, that was what I was thinking from the side of the line and sharing that information and waiting with voting would atleast have made sense to me. If Vasconcelos was mafia, there would be no way he would know that Levin knew that ECA was town too.

You have to see it through the eyes of a doc who really believed Vasconcelos was mafia:

My reasoning on the last day, after I had saved ECA, was to not reveal my doc status since with some luck the mafia would try to claim it for himself. If that had happened, I hoped I would be able to argue them down with logic and get the other two to vote with me. Also I figured if we hung the wrong guy, I could protect ECA again the next night and hope for the slim chance that the mafia would target him again.

I knew that as mafia, Vasconcelos wouldn't try to call mafia on ECA since the doc would then contest him on that, no matter if the doc was me or Fl3a. So.. he would go for me or Fl3a. I figured he picked Fl3a pretty much randomly, hoping he wouldn't be the doc. I had hoped he would have picked me, because that would lead to the same scenario as above where it would be a battle to win the others' votes.

So instead I reasoned to myself that Vasconcelos was trying to cast blame on Fl3a, whom I really didn't think was likely to be mafia - at least not according to his prior posts and actions compared to Vasconcelos's. ECA, whom I knew was a townie, and a good logical one at that (I really like you as a player ECA ), had also already voted for Vasc, and so I went with it perhaps a bit hastier than I should have. There were some things in Fl3a's defense post after Vasc's accusation that I should have considered more. Accusing Vasconcelos of being mafia because he made two posts, for example, seemed a bit desperate. As it was now, these things only slightly dented my Vasconcelos-is-mafia armour.

 

[Iceforge]

One question to all through, not that I will be moderating for a while, but good to know peoples opinions?

Would people prefer in the future that the game continues if at dusk, the town is only 1 more than the mafia, but does have a doctor to protect, as here, where the game would end with successfull nightkill, or continue with a failed nightkill?
It was a judgement call for me here, but I like to go for the popular vote to be honest, as it is about what most enjoy. Unfortunately, I coudln't ask the question while the game was still going, as that would make all answers biased.
So, assuming you could be both mafia or town, would you prefer it to end right away (like now) or continue (and basicly become a coin-toss)? One could argue that it ended up as a cointoss only due to good actions done by the doctor the previous night(s)?

 

[Levin]

One question to all through, not that I will be moderating for a while, but good to know peoples opinions?

Would people prefer in the future that the game continues if at dusk, the town is only 1 more than the mafia, but does have a doctor to protect, as here, where the game would end with successfull nightkill, or continue with a failed nightkill?
It was a judgement call for me here, but I like to go for the popular vote to be honest, as it is about what most enjoy. Unfortunately, I coudln't ask the question while the game was still going, as that would make all answers biased.
So, assuming you could be both mafia or town, would you prefer it to end right away (like now) or continue (and basicly become a coin-toss)? One could argue that it ended up as a cointoss only due to good actions done by the doctor the previous night(s)?

Well, the way I see it.. my save on ECA became meaningless in this game. So.. all in all, I think a successful save bringing the numbers to one up for the townies, should at least bring the chance of surviving another night. Things are so stacked against the townies anyway in small games like this.

Another thing I'd like to bring up. Wouldn't it be nice to give the cop the ability to tell if someone he investigated is a doc, rather than just seeing if he's townie or mafia? As it is now, as Vasc pointed out, the cop's role feels almost pointless because you can argue either way when he claims his role in game. He needs some kind of proof to convince at least one other guy (namely the doc) that he really IS the cop. Of course, outing the doc like that could be a great disadvantage too, so I think it could be balanced.

Then again.. perhaps it's nice for the games to be stacked in mafia's favour. It makes it all the more special and sweet when you win as a townie. It's just that I'VE NEVER BEEN MAFIAAAAAA!!! *cries sweet tears of innocence*

 

[old.Tohtori]

My opinion, as simple as can be, if the town has ANY chance of winning, it should continue to that point. It's only fair, in my opinion.

So yes, it should continue if there's a doc and a townie vs a mafia.

 

[Iceforge]

Levin: Yes, I see how it became a bit meaningless!

About the cop through, I would have to say a big NO.

Seeing through many games on mafiascum.net it becomes rather clear than rather than claim cop to prove themselves, the very experienced player instead use that he knows for a fact that X is a mafia member, he then goes through every single post of that player and points out all the scummy things that player has done to make his case convincing. The cop role is already very powerfull if used cloak and dagger style. Even if you know someone is innocent, you can argue for their defense vigoruously, as you can be sure you are not accidentially defending a mafia member. That could ofc be misinterpreted as 1 mafia member defending another, but hey, it is quite clear that misunderstand each others actinos is a big part of this game either way.

 

[Levin]

Levin: Yes, I see how it became a bit meaningless!

About the cop through, I would have to say a big NO.

Seeing through many games on mafiascum.net it becomes rather clear than rather than claim cop to prove themselves, the very experienced player instead use that he knows for a fact that X is a mafia member, he then goes through every single post of that player and points out all the scummy things that player has done to make his case convincing. The cop role is already very powerfull if used cloak and dagger style. Even if you know someone is innocent, you can argue for their defense vigoruously, as you can be sure you are not accidentially defending a mafia member. That could ofc be misinterpreted as 1 mafia member defending another, but hey, it is quite clear that misunderstand each others actinos is a big part of this game either way.

Haha alright, that's fair enough.

 

[fl3a]

id also definitely say continue the game if there is a chance. calling it a victory for one side while the other still has a chance, no matter how remote, is a bit unfair.

 

[Vasconcelos]

id also definitely say continue the game if there is a chance. calling it a victory for one side while the other still has a chance, no matter how remote, is a bit unfair.

You would've lost.

I guess....

 

[fl3a]

we would have either won or lost, depending on who levin protected (or well, i guess he could only protect ECA in this game, but i didnt know it at that point) and who i decided to kill.

if i had known from the beginning that doc can only protect others i would have won in that situation - since i tried to kill ECA and he survived, and you got lynched and it turned out you were the cop, it would have been clear that levin is the doc, so nightkill on him and mafia victory.

 

[Iceforge]

Alright then, seems everybody would have liked the game to go to the finish, sorry I took the other judgement call then.

Will let a game finish under the same circumstances in the future... still need somebody willing to run a few games unless the mafia series should just go into hiatus over the summer (or atleast until I am settled at my parents where I'll be staying temporarily)

 

[Levin]

Alright then, seems everybody would have liked the game to go to the finish, sorry I took the other judgement call then.

Will let a game finish under the same circumstances in the future... still need somebody willing to run a few games unless the mafia series should just go into hiatus over the summer (or atleast until I am settled at my parents where I'll be staying temporarily)

How are you going to rule with docs, Iceforge? Will they be able to protect themselves in the future, or will it be like it was in this game? Or will it vary?

 

[Iceforge]

Well, to be honest I like the idea of them not being able to protect themselves... in my mind it just doesn't make sense that they can... I mean, if you are a Doctor is able to protect yourself and mend your wounds if you are attacked by the mafia, then why on earth would they not do that if they get attacked?

Are they like "Damnit, I decided to help X, but now I got shoot in the back! Such a shame I can just VUPTI and heal myself, but I said I would heal X tonight, so I better not... hmm, everything is getting so cold and dark.. argh...."

 

[Levin]

Well, to be honest I like the idea of them not being able to protect themselves... in my mind it just doesn't make sense that they can... I mean, if you are a Doctor is able to protect yourself and mend your wounds if you are attacked by the mafia, then why on earth would they not do that if they get attacked?

Are they like "Damnit, I decided to help X, but now I got shoot in the back! Such a shame I can just VUPTI and heal myself, but I said I would heal X tonight, so I better not... hmm, everything is getting so cold and dark.. argh...."

Haha, true, but using that logic I would definately think that the cop should be able to identify a townie as a doc. Or any townie should see who the doc is, even. And there should be ten cops! Okay, okay.. but you get the point. Still, it's no biggie as far as I'm concerned, and it was an interesting twist that everyone but me, in this game, thought that the doc could protect himself. Maybe it could be left random for each game that has a doc in it?

 

[Iceforge]

perhaps.... just one more coin toss at random.org for whoever is moderating that game... in the end, it is basicly up to the moderator...

Perhaps I should make a guideline on how to moderate these games, just so that if somebody wants to moderate got something to work out from

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well even if the statistics lie ...i'm willing to run the gaes as the "uber mafia goon"

So no need for a hiatus. Though when i return, it will be legen...wait for it...dary!

 

[fl3a]

regarding the doctor question, i think that too much randomness is bad for the game. it would be best if the roles were clearly defined, whichever way the ruling goes

 

[Golena]

regarding the doctor question, i think that too much randomness is bad for the game. it would be best if the roles were clearly defined, whichever way the ruling goes

Agreed, the game is about trying to read people and why they make the actions/comments they do.
The more randomness there is in the game, the more pure guesswork you have to do over people's actions. If the games eventually just come down to a coin tossing exercise then it's not worth playing anymore.

Less posting signup threads while i'm at work in future as well ok!