No more hero's?

[Huntingtons]

Do you know neither of them had a gun? Do you know neither had a knife? How do you know he knowingly shot them in the back? As i said, shine a torch into someones face in the dark, they can't see a thing - i believe he woke to the noises, in an effort to preserve his own life which he believed to be in danger he reached for his shotgun. Startled by the light, with no idea who, or how many, or what they had pointed back at him, he pulled the trigger. Once. He had the option of a second, but didnt use it.

And on that, do you ever stand with your back to something in the dark, and shine the torch over your shoulder, or between your legs to see it??

didn't think so. Little buggers tried to break the law, the law got broken back and they started crying - all's fair, all's square imo...

the story i read in the news was that they got shot outside while running away when seeing he had a gun right? so he could follow them and aim at them.

 

[yaruar]

Do you know neither of them had a gun? Do you know neither had a knife? How do you know he knowingly shot them in the back? As i said, shine a torch into someones face in the dark, they can't see a thing - i believe he woke to the noises, in an effort to preserve his own life which he believed to be in danger he reached for his shotgun. Startled by the light, with no idea who, or how many, or what they had pointed back at him, he pulled the trigger. Once. He had the option of a second, but didnt use it.

And on that, do you ever stand with your back to something in the dark, and shine the torch over your shoulder, or between your legs to see it??

didn't think so. Little buggers tried to break the law, the law got broken back and they started crying - all's fair, all's square imo...

Actually that isn't what happened. He claimed to have had the torch shone in his face when they were downstairs and he was upstairs. However he fired the shots from downstairs at both of them (forensics showed this) so he either went downstairs after them or was lying in wait with his (illegal) shotgun. + from what i remember one was shot whilst trying to get out of a window which would make it very different from Martin shooting them with a torch shone in his eyes, he would have had to have been following them as they were moving away from them and then shot at a person clearly leaving his property.

 

[yaruar]

i believe he woke to the noises, in an effort to preserve his own life which he believed to be in danger he reached for his shotgun. Startled by the light, with no idea who, or how many, or what they had pointed back at him, he pulled the trigger. Once. He had the option of a second, but didnt use it.

You believe, but all of this is disproved by the physical evidence. I could say that i believed that Martin is the reincarnation of Jesus come down to reign fire upon the sinners, doesn't make it true.

There are far too many people unaware of the facts of this case and using it as a cause celibre, when in fact it actually damages their position.

The fact that Martin was made out to be a sweet, misunderstood, teddybear loving old codger is a complete fabrication of the truth anyway. He used to talk of "putting gypsies in one of his fields surrounded by barbed wire and machine gunning them" which is a totally repugnant thing to say.

 

[Rediknight]

You believe, but all of this is disproved by the physical evidence. I could say that i believed that Martin is the reincarnation of Jesus come down to reign fire upon the sinners, doesn't make it true.

There are far too many people unaware of the facts of this case and using it as a cause celibre, when in fact it actually damages their position.

The fact that Martin was made out to be a sweet, misunderstood, teddybear loving old codger is a complete fabrication of the truth anyway. He used to talk of "putting gypsies in one of his fields surrounded by barbed wire and machine gunning them" which is a totally repugnant thing to say.

I could boil it down into one sentence though - If they hadn't have broken in and broken the law in the first place, both would be unharmed. They acted like victims...

Actually, maybe i should reconsider - perhaps i like THEM more, cos natural selection gave them the idea to break in there, and removed one evil little theiving bastard from the gene pool...

Screw it, im gonna go have a tea and cheer on idiots harming themselves for my amusement More of the same, crims - lets see you break into a Barracks or something

 

[yaruar]

I could boil it down into one sentence though - If they hadn't have broken in and broken the law in the first place, both would be unharmed. They acted like victims...

And if Martin hadn't callously murdered them then he wouldn't have gone to prison. In fact it's a shame that the pro death penalty people hadn't gotten their way as he may well have swung for the murder like he deserved to. An eye for an eye and all that. Maybe we should just allow a free for all and let the burglars family take pot shots at martin as after all he did murder their son/brother/cousin..... It's a system which worked well in the Balkan states and the former Yugoslavia and we can see working well in Northern Ireland even to this day.

Yes, the justice system is flawed, but when people are allowed to take the law into their own hands and get away with it the whole system can collapse.

 

[Rediknight]

And if Martin hadn't callously murdered them then he wouldn't have gone to prison. In fact it's a shame that the pro death penalty people hadn't gotten their way as he may well have swung for the murder like he deserved to.

see, now your talking like a crack smoker. Are you the other one of the two? How anyone can POSSIBLY consider Martin the criminal in this case is beyond me - they BROKE INTO HIS HOUSE (against the law) TRESSPASSING (against the law) Made threats to invoke violence or fear (against the law) and terrorised an old man (oddly we haven't seen their houses invaded by Marines yet though)

He shot one of them. You want an eye for an eye? There you go - law got broke, law got broke back. Both of them should've been locked up - if you want to point blame, then blame the judicial system for not taking into consideration the 150+ court appearences the pair had had and put the pair of them away. Martin was a law breaker, but he broke the law AGAINST LAW BREAKERS! They wanna impose their lawlessness and careless attitude to others feelings, property and lives, then they can expect nothing but the same back.

Im leaving this now, i got lunch and your starting to sound like some kid of crim sympathiser - "Oh, send them to a yachting holiday centre, that'll cure them!!!" two weeks later the yachting centre is burned down after being looted by the same kids. Some people can't be helped with kindness, so just accept the dead kid was a shitbag who thrived on making other peoples lives a misery - more the better without him.

*wanders off to stare at some clouds*

 

[Marc]

Cant believe people are sticking up for the 3 smackheads that broke into Martins house. Tell you what, come and live in the real world, not your cosy tory life and then see if you still feel the same.

 

[yaruar]

Cant believe people are sticking up for the 3 smackheads that broke into Martins house. Tell you what, come and live in the real world, not your cosy tory life and then see if you still feel the same.

I'm not sticking up for them, just pointing out that the case isn't as clear cut as most people make out and that Martin was guilty of murder given the facts of the case. I would feel less bad for him if he hadn't shot them when he knew they were running away.

There is a problem with policing and punishment of crimes in this country, but that does not justify or mitigite people from taking the law into their own hands. 2 wrongs don't make a right and vigilantism is a very dangerous road to go down.

 

[Lakashnik]

i dont think its sticking up for them. more for the law.
have u ever not indicated going round a corner while driving? maybe u have gone at 50mph in a 30mph zone. most people have.
this is breaking the law even if its a very minor 1. does this mean i can now break the law against u? can i shoot u? or maybe im now allowed to just break into ur home an steal ur stuff.
im sure u will try to dismiss this as nothing like the topic but the principle is the same.

 

[yaruar]

You want an eye for an eye? There you go - law got broke, law got broke back.

disproportionate response. what Martin did was not self defence, he knowingly shot 2 people who were fleeing. There isn't a civilised country in the world which would see that as reasonable force.

I find it interesting and odd that there wasn't a similar outcry when Satpal Ram was convicted to the one we got when Tony Martin was. If you want a gross miscarriage of justice and wrongful conviction that is where you should look, not Martin.

 

[yaruar]

i dont think its sticking up for them. more for the law.
have u ever not indicated going round a corner while driving? maybe u have gone at 50mph in a 30mph zone. most people have.
this is breaking the law even if its a very minor 1. does this mean i can now break the law against u? can i shoot u? or maybe im now allowed to just break into ur home an steal ur stuff.
im sure u will try to dismiss this as nothing like the topic but the principle is the same.

This reminds me. I am a committed pedestrian (and lawful cyclist) and i've often thought it would be nice to be able to carry a claw hammer and knock the windows out of cars which ignore traffic signals, don't indicate, speed and generally put my life at risk because they don't obey the law. However I don't, because to do so would be an act of criminal damage.

 

[Roken]

Tony Martin was originally found guilty of murder, this was subsequently dropped to manslaughter. He is not a murderer, as defined by 'the legal system', neither is he a hero of mine.

To me heroes are ageless: for example the Heroes of Telemark. Norwegian commandos who single handedly crippled the Nazi's development of the atom bomb, doesn't matter how old they are now (if indeed alive) they will always be heroes to me.

 

[Rediknight]

This reminds me. I am a committed pedestrian (and lawful cyclist) and i've often thought it would be nice to be able to carry a claw hammer and knock the windows out of cars which ignore traffic signals, don't indicate, speed and generally put my life at risk because they don't obey the law. However I don't, because to do so would be an act of criminal damage.

now, NOW i'll buy you a pint I'm also (what i would consider) a safe, thoughtful, LEGAL cyclist and not a day goes by without me nearly losing my life to drivers who now appear to see indicators as an "optional extra" and, although exceptionally flattering, seem to think i'm waay skinnier than i actually am and give me nish room on a pass. I've no worries about kicking a car, and (yes this is worrying me) i have even considered chucking my bike across the front of one of these fools and crossing my fingers i land on something soft... like my head.

Jus something you might like to know, if you take the number plate of any car that either opens their door on you or cuts you up whilst speeding, actually hits you, or turns across you, that driver can be bought up on charges of Attempted Assault with a deadly weapon...

just wonder how many cyclists realise that though...

(then again, you can just sneak around in the middle of the night to their house and brick their front door up )

 

[Brite]

didnt he shoot him while the guy was running AWAY? if not ignore me
if it was i think hes a idiot. if he was acting in self defence fine an dandy. but if the guy was posing no threat he had no right to shoot him. makes him no better than the guy he shot imo
altho this could be totally the wrong thing im going on about.

if a liddul elph nuked your mate down, then turns to run he still did it, so keel the bastard anyway

 

[Ezteq]

a lot of threads seem to lead on to this subject of how far it is acceptable to go when/if someone invades your home, and to a lot of people its black and white im not going to even try and change peopes minds about this but heres one to think over:

girl/woman who has been atacked previously possibly more than once and is at the best of times warey and a little frightened of more or less everyone, not a violent person but will protect herself, wakes up in the night or walks in to her home to find intruders there is she going to think
A) "Hmm if im nice and quiet and cooperative they'll let me go"
B) "well maybe if i dont scream when theyre raping/beating me they might just leave it at that and bugger off"
C) "they might not rape/beat me but i'll be damned if i'm giving them the benifit of the doubt here, and anyway wtf gives them the right to do this to me and have my stuff that i worked hard to get???"

she could think any of these and the outcome could go two ways she either loses some of her stuff gets abused and lives in even more terror for the rest of her life or she puts up a fight before they get the chance and walks away with a little more self respect than she had before all be it shes still terrified and now facing a murder/assult charge aswell.

But before you pass judgement on this girl and tag her self ritious bitch who decided to be judge jury and executioner, imagine that she's your mum or sister or girlfriend.

and anyway this is soooo off topic its unbelieveable so start talking about who your heros are or make a new thread about tony martin :touch:

 

[Calaen]

well put Ez, no-one that has not been in the situation being talked about can say they would have done any different and be totally honest.

2 crack heads in my house at night, id like to think id kill both the fuckers and keep my wife safe from harm. But that would be me talking absolute shit. However unless it happens I could not honestly say what I would/did do.

 

[spook]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo
Yer it takes a real Hero to sign up for a job then QQ when they have to do that job



Yeah I can see how your an acute millitary observer who knows lots about a soldiers job.
Fact is you dont see soldiers in the media QQ'ing about their job.
You do see "some" mothers or fathers QQ'ing about how their poor little kid is getting sent to war.
Most of the soldiers over in Iraq or any other war zone are far more worried about something else.
They are worried about making a twat of something and letting their mates down.
Of course in their quieter moments they will have reservations about what is going on or might be round the corner.
But when its all said and done it aint about politics or the right or wrong or why's.
It's about you and your mates.



And there is oddly something else.....
You wanna know if ALL that training and hard work was really worth it.
And what better way to test it than to try it for real.

Exactly! That's what most of the people from my platoon downhere feel, at least. There's nothing heroic about it, it's a job that might have more twists than other jobs. The people here are volunteers, well knowing what they might face. Going downhere to become a hero, you'll be worse off when you get home.
We try to worry as little as possible about the threat of attacks, otherwise we'd have little time to think about anything else.
And parents not being happy about their child being in a warzone? Hell, if I was old enough to have a child that decided to go to a warzone, even though I'd been in one myself, I'd tell him continuously to rethink the pro's and cons, and be 110% sure about going. As one may not return or you could become severely disabled.

And I've yet to see anyone downhere be annoyed with what we do, only thing missing to lighten the mood would be some female company :\
Then again, if a soldier is caught in talking to the press, expressing opinions without consulting his superior officers, he'll be going home more quickly than an ice cream melts downhere at noon.


And on that guy that shot the burglars. If he shot them in the back while they were running away, they were posing no immediate threat. Despite any amount of burglaries they may have commited prior to that incident, you should not shoot people in the back and then walk away as a hero.

Yes, possibly the law failed to detain these 2 individuals, but that does not allow any civilian to take it into his own hands and enact it.

 

[Rediknight]

Spook, a little off topic i know, but humour me

Aside from the fact that you're doing a job, is there much of an issue out that way with the moral side of whats happening? The press, the news and all the other forms of media we get are obviously cloudier than London in April, so we see all kinds of crazy shit going on. Just wondered what you guys n gals take on the situation is - do you think you're actually bringing peace to the area, or do you guys think your presence alone is doing more harm than good?

Im still in two minds about the whole thing, as an observer - hate war, hate opression more, but i can't tell if one evils been swapped for an oppressive government controlled by George "Cleetus" Bush's "hench"men Cheney n Rumsfeld, and i doubt i'll get any clear picture whilst we're relying on the BBC and right wing politicians for TRUE info...

 

[spook]

Being downhere, no doubt helps putting it all in perspective. I'm Danish, and therefor deployed in the southern Iraq, which is quite a bit more calm then around Baghdad. So we're not as inhibited by thoughts of prior attacks as we would be if being upthere.

With it being more peaceful downhere, the progress of rebuilding the society seems to work a bit quicker then up north.
I'm absolutely certain that we're helping the country work it's way towards a better infrastructure, with schools, water supplies and trying to remove as much corruption from the Police and politics as possible. The last part being by far the hardest, as it's "just" a part of their culture.
Also when talking to key players in the area (sources, politicians and such) we're often told that most of the people are very happy with our presence and that they generally feel more secure walking around when there's a coalition patrol in the area. When driving around our area of responsability, there's almost always children standing by the roads waving, giving thumbs up signs and yelling "good good mistar!" Of course, there's also the few that find it amusing throwing stones at us. There will always be opposition to any cause.
( Hell, I wouldn't be happy if my country had been invaded by a foreign alliance, claiming that they wanted to help rebuild the country, and I wasn't able to see the bigger picture. )

In the end it definitely gives you the feeling of doing something right, something that helps getting by a lot when you hear that a british colleague lost his life to a roadside bomb the same day.

The television shows what people want to see: action,thrills, things that make them angry and make them have an opinion. I rarely ever see programs concerning the amount of schools made, water pumps established and amounts of lives saved because of arresting a high ranking criminal. It's all about the death, decay and destruction.
I'm glad that I'm able to see for myself what's going on.

I'm in no way in favor of war. And I can't say that I'm behind Bush' intentions on the War on Iraq. There were clearly little chance of Iraq having weapons of mass destruction after '91. And any country here in the middleeast would be happy to aid the Al-Qaeda against the US.
I don't know clearly how the country was run during the reign of Saddam Hussein, but I'm fairly sure that now we're pushing it in the right direction. I try to stay away from the politics as much as possible, it always ends up in an argument where either player just throws stuff at each other.

Having said that, I'm not sure if Iraq is ready for the "advanced" democracy yet. With their religion being so heavy on their shoulders, and the country so much in need of quick decisions, I doubt the bureaucracy will be beneficial for the first 5-10 years of the rebuilding.
But the stuff upthere, is up to the politicians.

 

[Rediknight]

Being downhere, no doubt helps putting it all in perspective. I'm Danish, and therefor deployed in the southern Iraq, which is quite a bit more calm then around Baghdad. So we're not as inhibited by thoughts of prior attacks as we would be if being upthere.

With it being more peaceful downhere, the progress of rebuilding the society seems to work a bit quicker then up north.
I'm absolutely certain that we're helping the country work it's way towards a better infrastructure, with schools, water supplies and trying to remove as much corruption from the Police and politics as possible. The last part being by far the hardest, as it's "just" a part of their culture.
Also when talking to key players in the area (sources, politicians and such) we're often told that most of the people are very happy with our presence and that they generally feel more secure walking around when there's a coalition patrol in the area. When driving around our area of responsability, there's almost always children standing by the roads waving, giving thumbs up signs and yelling "good good mistar!" Of course, there's also the few that find it amusing throwing stones at us. There will always be opposition to any cause.
( Hell, I wouldn't be happy if my country had been invaded by a foreign alliance, claiming that they wanted to help rebuild the country, and I wasn't able to see the bigger picture. )

In the end it definitely gives you the feeling of doing something right, something that helps getting by a lot when you hear that a british colleague lost his life to a roadside bomb the same day.

The television shows what people want to see: action,thrills, things that make them angry and make them have an opinion. I rarely ever see programs concerning the amount of schools made, water pumps established and amounts of lives saved because of arresting a high ranking criminal. It's all about the death, decay and destruction.
I'm glad that I'm able to see for myself what's going on.

I'm in no way in favor of war. And I can't say that I'm behind Bush' intentions on the War on Iraq. There were clearly little chance of Iraq having weapons of mass destruction after '91. And any country here in the middleeast would be happy to aid the Al-Qaeda against the US.
I don't know clearly how the country was run during the reign of Saddam Hussein, but I'm fairly sure that now we're pushing it in the right direction. I try to stay away from the politics as much as possible, it always ends up in an argument where either player just throws stuff at each other.

Having said that, I'm not sure if Iraq is ready for the "advanced" democracy yet. With their religion being so heavy on their shoulders, and the country so much in need of quick decisions, I doubt the bureaucracy will be beneficial for the first 5-10 years of the rebuilding.
But the stuff upthere, is up to the politicians.

see - that makes more sense to me than it being "hammer time" - thanks spook

keep it up matey, have a b33r or three on us

 

[spook]

I will! But not till I get home in 2½ month. As we're kept on the wagon while we're downhere

 

[Hawkwind]

he shouldn't have had the gun there anyway, he had had his shotgun licence revoked previously because he was a nutter.

If that was the case the police should have made sure he didn't have one.

 

[Marc]

Ricky Hatton

Now theres a hero. Face, a cross between a pill box and an angel. Working class boy Family proud man. Shuts up that poncy muppet Tszyu with a commanding display.

Is there a greater sight today, than the MEN arena, 22,000 people shouting "HATTON, HATTON" as he stands at the top of the ramp, warming up. Mum, dad and family at ringside as they have been for the past 124 amateur/professional fights hes had.

True Hero