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Overdriven

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Which one? The one where the universe is made up of magic mushrooms?

That's enjoyable pap but it's so not star trek they're taking the piss.
Wait, that's actually in the show? I thought the wife kept dosing me with LSD every time I watched it. Aye, Discovery -- 'Flix.
 

Gwadien

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Which one? The one where the universe is made up of magic mushrooms?

That's enjoyable pap but it's so not star trek they're taking the piss.

I don't think they care to be honest.

Let's face it, it doesn't matter what they did with it all the crusty old trekkies were always going to moan.
 

Scouse

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Let's face it, it doesn't matter what they did with it all the crusty old trekkies were always going to moan.
Not if they'd obeyed the established rules of the universe.

Science fiction (although a bit light) not pure fantasy. There's an important distinction. It's really weird that Marvel bend over backwards to try to obey comic book rules (so they at least obey the spirit of the thing) but one of the ridiculously small number of actual science fiction shows that have ever existed has been shown short shrift.

I guess when it comes to commerciality you've seen it thrown under the bus between The Motion Picture and The Wrath Of Khan.

Wrath of Khan is probably most people's favourite - it's a by-the-numbers action flick and a bloody good one at that. But my favourite is the first one - because most people would say it's up it's own arse :)
 

Gwadien

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Not if they'd obeyed the established rules of the universe.

Science fiction (although a bit light) not pure fantasy. There's an important distinction. It's really weird that Marvel bend over backwards to try to obey comic book rules (so they at least obey the spirit of the thing) but one of the ridiculously small number of actual science fiction shows that have ever existed has been shown short shrift.

I guess when it comes to commerciality you've seen it thrown under the bus between The Motion Picture and The Wrath Of Khan.

Wrath of Khan is probably most people's favourite - it's a by-the-numbers action flick and a bloody good one at that. But my favourite is the first one - because most people would say it's up it's own arse :)
Spaceships that can essentially teleport isn't fantasy?
 

Scouse

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Spaceships that can essentially teleport isn't fantasy?
There are crucial differences between Harry Potter and Star Trek. Crucial.

I CBA with a mahoosive post (partly because we've done this before, and partly because I've second degree burns from hogweed that cover most of my arms at the moment and thinking is just too damn hard). So just trust me that a cogent sci-fi universe isn't just basic fantasy.

I was going to find the thing from Carl Sagan's wife about how they both lamented the Harry Potter-ization of our culture (admiration for the book as a work of admiration but deep sorrow that humans turn to "magic" as their escape rather than science fiction). But looking too hard is a PITA so have this random thing about books instead:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVu4duLOF6Y


:)
 

dysfunction

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There are crucial differences between Harry Potter and Star Trek. Crucial.

I CBA with a mahoosive post (partly because we've done this before, and partly because I've second degree burns from hogweed that cover most of my arms at the moment and thinking is just too damn hard). So just trust me that a cogent sci-fi universe isn't just basic fantasy.

I was going to find the thing from Carl Sagan's wife about how they both lamented the Harry Potter-ization of our culture (admiration for the book as a work of admiration but deep sorrow that humans turn to "magic" as their escape rather than science fiction). But looking too hard is a PITA so have this random thing about books instead:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVu4duLOF6Y


:)
There is nothing wrong with fantasy books. JRR Tolkien and Terry Pratchett are fine examples of the genre.
Nothing wrong with a blend either of Sci Fi and Fantasy.

But I get your point that if something used to be quite strict with it's scientific principles it should try and stay that way.
Saying that though they need to bring in the cash so a blur of the lines is to be expected especially in a time when the Superhero is a hot topic.
 

Gwadien

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There are crucial differences between Harry Potter and Star Trek. Crucial.

I CBA with a mahoosive post (partly because we've done this before, and partly because I've second degree burns from hogweed that cover most of my arms at the moment and thinking is just too damn hard). So just trust me that a cogent sci-fi universe isn't just basic fantasy.

I was going to find the thing from Carl Sagan's wife about how they both lamented the Harry Potter-ization of our culture (admiration for the book as a work of admiration but deep sorrow that humans turn to "magic" as their escape rather than science fiction). But looking too hard is a PITA so have this random thing about books instead:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVu4duLOF6Y


:)
That's all well and great, but spaceships teleporting through space seems just as much as a fantasy or science fiction than having an alien species that does funky shit.
 

Scouse

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There is nothing wrong with fantasy books. JRR Tolkien and Terry Pratchett are fine examples of the genre.
Pratchett quite pointedly used his fantasy to produce social commentary about the real world - anti-religion anti-magic pragmatism. All dressed up in magical wizzard clothes. (I'm on the second to last discworld book he ever produced now - been on a Pratchett kick for aaaaages).

Tolkein tried to induce a love of the wilderness in his family and had an underlying rage against industrial Britain in there.

But Harry Potter? Highly inventive achievement, with the odd pop at the press, but generally gets by on every kids wish that they could do magic and hope that "wouldn't it be great if magic was real".

No. No it wouldn't. And I think it's very unhealthy for society to indulge in that fantasy as much as we do.

Sci-Fi, true hard science fiction, allows escapism but is rooted in a critical intellectualism. The very intellectualism that we seem to pour scorn or are suspicious of unfortunately. It's a harsher read though - because the real world is way less comforting than magic and spells.
 

Scouse

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That's all well and great, but spaceships teleporting through space seems just as much as a fantasy or science fiction than having an alien species that does funky shit.
You're supposed to be a teacher and therefore better than most- aren't you interested in teasing out the actual and real difference?
 

Gwadien

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You're supposed to be a teacher and therefore better than most- aren't you interested in teasing out the actual and real difference?
What are you talking about?

I asked you a question and you went on off a tangent, then you started talking about Carl Sagan's wife, like it's relevant or something.

And you're chatting bollocks about Harry Potter, the reason why it's so successful is because it relatable, and has themes of class/poverty/racism etc.

I think you're doing your old 'everything new is shit' thing again.

And please don't respond with an essay on something around the question, just straight up answer it please.

For the 94th edit - I find it a bit contradictory to use Pratchett in your defence and then say too much fantasy is bad. :S

And another edit because I couldn't resist - I thought you were a banker, not a wanker? ;)
 
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Scouse

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I asked you a question... just straight up answer it please.
Warp drive is theoretically possible (as is alien life) - and even if it isn't the very idea of it has advanced scientific knowledge in a useful direction for mankind.

The intellectual processes involved in creating cogent science-fiction (as opposed to magical fantasy) and the thought processes and research that have been born off the back of science fiction (people are still doing useful research based around those ideas - especially this 'silly' show that inspired generations) far exceed anything that Harry Potter inspired.

Unless you count people wishing that they could confront their problems by waving bits of wood, shouting expelliarmus before being inspired to go get their photos taken near some bricks outside Kings Cross station.

But more insidiously - Harry Potter inspires uncritical thinking, a retreat from intellectual rigour and reason and off the back of that is the empowerment of snake oil salesmen and unscrupulous politicians.

As a teacher, you'd think you'd be all about making all kids use their minds. For without them they're just meat for the grinder. Science fiction demands rigourous intellectual engagement. Magic doesn't.

Short enough?
 

Jupitus

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<SNIP> before being inspired to go get their photos taken near some bricks outside Kings Cross station.
It's INSIDE! Do you know nothing????!!!!

Also... can we calm down a bit - it's meant to be fun! ;) (y)
 

Moriath

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There are crucial differences between Harry Potter and Star Trek. Crucial.

I CBA with a mahoosive post (partly because we've done this before, and partly because I've second degree burns from hogweed that cover most of my arms at the moment and thinking is just too damn hard). So just trust me that a cogent sci-fi universe isn't just basic fantasy.

I was going to find the thing from Carl Sagan's wife about how they both lamented the Harry Potter-ization of our culture (admiration for the book as a work of admiration but deep sorrow that humans turn to "magic" as their escape rather than science fiction). But looking too hard is a PITA so have this random thing about books instead:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVu4duLOF6Y


:)
Cant believe you managed to get sagan into this. Must give you a stiffy.
 

Scouse

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Cant believe you managed to get sagan into this. Must give you a stiffy.
He specifically commented on the "magicification" of society and our forms of entertainment infantilising our minds.

So it wasn't a shoe-horn. It was something he thought (that I happen to agree with).
 

Raven

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I get his point, fantasy in literature and the arts is definitely a new phenomena :p

I guess the difference being is that we now know when something isn't real, or scientific fantasy...or well most of us do.
 

DaGaffer

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Star Trek has always had tension between its scriptwriters wanting to tell any story they like and fans who want to apply coherent rules to the Trek universe. It is a show that was only ever briefly written by actual science fiction writers in TOS.

As for Discovery; I didn't like the first season for all the liberties it took with canon, but season 2 was a whole lot better and season 3 conveniently gets itself away from the prequel burden altogether.
 

MYstIC G

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Star Trek has always had tension between its scriptwriters wanting to tell any story they like and fans who want to apply coherent rules to the Trek universe. It is a show that was only ever briefly written by actual science fiction writers in TOS.

As for Discovery; I didn't like the first season for all the liberties it took with canon, but season 2 was a whole lot better and season 3 conveniently gets itself away from the prequel burden altogether.
Discovery is just a bunch of people who wished they could write for Dr Who (go anywhere, do anything, at any time), still basically writing as if they are working on Dr Who and just slapping the Trek universe on it.

Try and spot the actual lines from the show in this one...
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4fW0EInqw
 

DaGaffer

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Discovery is just a bunch of people who wished they could write for Dr Who (go anywhere, do anything, at any time), still basically writing as if they are working on Dr Who and just slapping the Trek universe on it.
The vast majority of TV scriptwriters want to do that. The ones who want to be tied to canon and any kind of "bible" are few and far between, especially one as convoluted as Star Trek's. Which is of course why so many of them break things (looking at you Robert Orci) without understanding or caring about the underpinnings of the the Universe they're supposed to be writing about. Trek has lacked an overall showrunner in the Rodenberry mould for decades, and it shows.
 

MYstIC G

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The vast majority of TV scriptwriters want to do that. The ones who want to be tied to canon and any kind of "bible" are few and far between, especially one as convoluted as Star Trek's. Which is of course why so many of them break things (looking at you Robert Orci) without understanding or caring about the underpinnings of the the Universe they're supposed to be writing about. Trek has lacked an overall showrunner in the Rodenberry mould for decades, and it shows.
View: https://giphy.com/gifs/cbsallaccess-cbs-discovery-star-trek-2-uUz1iGsj6t0ErjdjT1
 

DaGaffer

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Just watched the first ep of Long Way Up; the new Ewan McGregor/Charlie Boorman adventure. It suffers a bit from the usual "not really roughing it when you have a cast of thousands in support" issue but I am really interested because they're doing it on electric bikes and with electric support vehicles; offroad versions of the Harley Livewire and the new Rivian electric pickups (I really like the look of the Rivian SUV so I'm keen to see whether it falls to bits in the first 10 miles or not). They're also doing pretty much my backpacking route so I'm quite looking forward to it.

Long way bikes.jpgRivian pickup.jpg
 

Moriath

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Not like long way rouund when they literally falling through bogs in napal then?
 

Raven

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Not if they'd obeyed the established rules of the universe.

Science fiction (although a bit light) not pure fantasy. There's an important distinction. It's really weird that Marvel bend over backwards to try to obey comic book rules (so they at least obey the spirit of the thing) but one of the ridiculously small number of actual science fiction shows that have ever existed has been shown short shrift.

I guess when it comes to commerciality you've seen it thrown under the bus between The Motion Picture and The Wrath Of Khan.

Wrath of Khan is probably most people's favourite - it's a by-the-numbers action flick and a bloody good one at that. But my favourite is the first one - because most people would say it's up it's own arse :)
You keep harping on about 'proper Star Trek' but it has always basically been camp nonsense with the odd bit of believable tech thrown in. Dancing around the edges of believability, what with bending space to travel and filling your spaceship with firbies, men dressed as bipedal lizards and men with large foreheads.
 

Raven

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Just watched the first ep of Long Way Up; the new Ewan McGregor/Charlie Boorman adventure. It suffers a bit from the usual "not really roughing it when you have a cast of thousands in support" issue but I am really interested because they're doing it on electric bikes and with electric support vehicles; offroad versions of the Harley Livewire and the new Rivian electric pickups (I really like the look of the Rivian SUV so I'm keen to see whether it falls to bits in the first 10 miles or not). They're also doing pretty much my backpacking route so I'm quite looking forward to it.

View attachment 42530View attachment 42531
An electric SUV will fall to bits roughly as quickly as a normal SUV, in fact it will likely last longer, fewer moving parts as it were.

GL charging an electric SUV outside of a major city though! ...for the next 20+ years.
 

DaGaffer

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An electric SUV will fall to bits roughly as quickly as a normal SUV, in fact it will likely last longer, fewer moving parts as it were.

GL charging an electric SUV outside of a major city though! ...for the next 20+ years.
Rivian is an entirely new company, so its quality and durability is an open question no matter what its powered by.

I've watched three episodes now and charging is literally the only issue and they've discovered a truth that most journalists and ev fans skate over all too often;
EVs are diabolical in cold weather, like say...the UK for half the year
 

Raven

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Yeah, but I imagine their crew managed to find a spot (in the near 3rd world) to charge a hell of a lot quicker than I would if I got stuck in (say) Birmingham.

The whole thing is cart before the horse.

As a great example, my MD (pre-lockdown) ordered an I-pace, he doesn't have a charger at home due to the fact that it would cost him about 3 grand to fit it, so now he basically visits the office (an 80 mile round trip) to charge his car that has a range of ~250 miles, mental.

It's not as if battery operated vehicles are the great panacea that the world is calling out for, just building the damn things, with all their rare earth minerals is 10+ years sank into a V8* (*may not be actual science)

Until we get proper (safe!) hydrogen fuel cell vehicles this is all baically a marketing ploy to get stupid people to offset their carbon footprint to China.
 

Raven

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Sorry, edit timer...

It's not like the grid could cope with a mass switch to electric vehicles, they shit themselves when people put the kettle on at half time during Corrie, can you imagine the utter chaos if everyone plugged their car in (if they happen to have cabled access to their vehicle over night) to charge at 5:30?

Sorry, complete con.
 
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Gwadien

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Sorry, edit timer...

It's not like the grid could cope with a mass switch to electric vehicles, they shit themselves when people put the kettle on at half time during Corrie, can you imagine the utter chaos if everyone plugged their car in to charge at 5:30?

Sorry, complete con.
You need to prove the technology is worth it before you start massive changes to the world's infrastructure tbh.

I do see electric cars as the future, but I also understand that it takes a long time for governments to respond to changes like this which will massively change a country.

I mean, what other choice do we actually have? We literally are going to run out of oil at some point soon.
 

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