Nerf Stealth (Vision Of Balance)

[Mageling]

At last mythic is transforming scouts ranger etc into what they always should be, scouts and rangers. I mean how hard can it be to comprehend the name (scout) really? Their function has, and still is a bit of target ( I got a few suggestions). Next class to get fixed, and I mean fixed, are these silly stealth classes.

There are many issues that should be addressed, but there’s only one needed to make up for it all. Put the amount of time “in one run” you’re able to stealth on a timer. That way once every 10 minutes or so, they should have to restealth (visible to all). We all know assassination requires precise timing (duh), thus time should be an assassins worst enemy.

Then again we all want more zerg wars and stealth wars, cause we all love hack n slash type of play (praise autofireee).



"Audi partem alterum"

 

[[RG]Thorey]

Yeah rite...

Take away our ability to solo at all..Shadowblade are useless without out opening styles...

That is no way to fix assasins, you should fix scouts and minstrels so they can stealth and solo. Take away see hidden..I for one would not cry as I would put points in evade etc.

How about we take bladeturn away from runemasters..or make skalds use staffs.. or make it so a skald,minstrel, bard can use speed once every 10 min

Taking away the only thing good about a class is not good..It happend to scouts and look what happend.

Gimp another class is not the way to go about fixing imbalences.

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

I believe there is nothing wrong with stealth, as long as Mythic implements the following changes:
- Remove see hidden realm ability, give all stealthed classes True Sight (that seems fair).
- Assasin classes have 2.5 times the "bubble" in order to more easily spot other stealthed classes (hunters, scouts).
- Make stealthing tougher, no stealthing by assasins when enemy is RIGHT behind them, no stealthing for archer classes for 15-20 seconds after a fight. Camouflage is *crap*

Right now, archers classes are boring to play, I would not want one in my group... Everybody is playing an assasin class, just cause people sometimes want to log on, have some easy fun, and not depend on the "perfect" group each time (for Albions it is hard to get the perfect group).
Regards, Glottis

 

[Hatt]

EH!?!? Nerf stealth!?!? THEN answear me how the **** a archer/assasin class can do anything at all? So stupid it doesn't even excist.. We can't do damage without stealth like tanks can, we can't fight a tank melee or kill a solo caster without stealth. We can hardly do anything whitout it.. Why don't you make a stealther class and try yourself :/
Remove plate/chain from tanks plz.. would make game more fun!
Thorey's post is better than this.. don't mind this one.

 

[old.Wildfire]

"Remove see hidden realm ability, give all stealthed classes True Sight"

only change that needs to be made imo

 

[hotrat]

Minstrel with true sight, moahaha <evil laugh> major nerf for assasins No way they escaping a class with speed song 5.

See hidden doesn't really need removing, just nerfing i.e. make first point give assasins 2.5 detect range than a normal char, 2nd point 3.0 more and if u put like 20 rsp's in it you get the full range one. Well something like that anyway.

See hidden atm is way too strong for a passive RA.

Make stealthing tougher, no stealthing by assasins when enemy is RIGHT behind them

If an assasin can stealth with an enemy right behind them they must be playing well, a lot of classes have the capability of stopping an assasin doing this (insta dd's, insta cc etc).

no stealthing for archer classes for 15-20 seconds after a fight

This is a better fix than see hidden is, but still not perfect cus once a sniper is running away unless u have speed they prolly still gonna restealth before you can stop them.

One thing that annoyed me before see hidden was mythic added a thing so that sometimes a sniper would unstealth when preparing to fire, but the sniper could just cancel the shot and restealth immediately. Maybe a sniper should always unstealth when preparing to fire, thus removing their 500 dmg shot from stealth at 1800 range advantage over assasins who do about the same dmg at pb range.
Another fix instead of the above would be the auto target, so frustrating when you get shot (as a mage) and it says blow hits barrier etc but no auto target cus no dmg caused, so you gotta wait until the next shot actually hits you (for about 1/3 your life) before you can even begin your counter attack.
Maybe people wouldn't have moaned so much about snipers had mythic put the button that brings up the last target that hit you EARLIER on in patches :/

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by old.Wildfire
"Remove see hidden realm ability, give all stealthed classes True Sight"

only change that needs to be made imo

only make true sight an ability learned at lvl 45 or 50, NOT as an expensive RA. Keep the 30min timer though.
Oh, and give all stealth classes autotrains in stealth, not just assassins. Not a big difference i know, but if i autotrained stealth mine'd be 3 levels higher than it is now.

 

[Arthwyr]

LoL all steathers true sight thats about the most stupid thing I ever heard ... You are gonna make all Shadowblades, nightshades and infiltrators fair game for the archers since their range advantage. ...

Just park 2 archers along any main passage in a RvR zone or on a wall and pop shots at every assassin that comes into your arrow range, hey sounds good.

 

[Tranquil-]

Uhm, True Sight has a 30 minute timer, Arthwyr.

 

[Mageling]

Read again

Originally posted by [RG]Thorey
Yeah rite...Take away our ability to solo at all..Shadowblade are useless without out opening styles...

That is no way to fix assasins, you should fix scouts and minstrels so they can stealth and solo. Take away see hidden..I for one would not cry as I would put points in evade etc.

How about we take bladeturn away from runemasters..or make skalds use staffs.. or make it so a skald,minstrel, bard can use speed once every 10 min

Taking away the only thing good about a class is not good..It happend to scouts and look what happend.

Gimp another class is not the way to go about fixing imbalences.

1) You mean to say that enforced “restealth” once every ten minutes is too hard?

2) This is a game based on team play. Like it or not all classes will be modified to be more group friendly. Btw you only play a stealth class I assume.

3) My post did not say: make all stealth classes able to use stealth only once every ten minutes. Get the point?

4) Scouts got what they should be getting. Too bad it took so long time. They will hopefully be given some abilities in the line with scouting (camo?).

5) How about we bring back the old debuffs (beta) values of the champion, I mean since then they been gimped by your own words, right? Think they debuffed constitution and strength for 140ish with best debuff. I bet 99% of the champion population want that back, what you think? I say they were fixed.

6) Hatt, you made less sense than your friend, so I didn’t bother.

 

[-yoda-]

imo i dont think see hidden kills bow classes so much as they say . they just cant solo as EASY s they used to "aussie and elesias seem to do wel still" .
i dont play a bow class so i dont know how it is for them but as a mins our stealth sucks anyway so see hidden wont help much .

i think the option to stop bow classes complaining so much is to make see hidden on a timer . or as stated above take away see hidden and give em all true sight . "on a timer" .


yes assasins will complain . but imo assasins wont be seen unless they want to "or a bowclass uses true sight" so taking away there passive see hidden doesnt affect them as much it just doesnt let them see snipers 25/7 . so imo no call to complain .

 

[old.Merbos]

Originally posted by hotrat

One thing that annoyed me before see hidden was mythic added a thing so that sometimes a sniper would unstealth when preparing to fire, but the sniper could just cancel the shot and restealth immediately. Maybe a sniper should always unstealth when preparing to fire, thus removing their 500 dmg shot from stealth at 1800 range advantage over assasins who do about the same dmg at pb range.
EARLIER on in patches :/

That shot from 1800-2200 range gets BTd 95% of the times, asassin PA can not be BTd..........

 

[gronk]

LOL how many of those guys that post here have a high lvl stealther class?

so much BS in here...

as said so often in this thread befor, take Bladeturn of casters, replace plate with woolen and u will see its the same as if u change all the things u suggested so far.

can u just leave us alone now, think theirs already been done too much nerfing on us.start whining about someone else, this is getting old and won't change a bit

 

[Mageling]

so simple

Originally posted by gronk
...so much BS in here...

as said so often in this thread befor, take Bladeturn of casters, replace plate with woolen and u will see its the same as if u change all the things u suggested so far.

1) Self Barrier of Negation, timer on 600 Sec, casting time 4 Sec and power cost 8%p. That is for the overpowered hibbies.

2) No it's not, the fact that stealth theoretically never runs out, is amazing though. Bet all casters want an unlimited mana pool, or tanks unlimited endurance. Thinking about it, just moving around stealthed should consume endurance. And you should be forced to restealth every 10 minutes or so.

Scenario, watching some enemies while trying to get one separated from group, but oops my stealth timer is running low. Now time to find a safe spot, restealth and head back. Or take the chance to be spotted the few seconds it takes to restealth.

 

[old.Odysseus]

Remove stealth altogether for anyone but assasins.
Give archers more firepower and some groupenhancing abilities.
Give archers TS.
Give something to minstrels (more cc, more damage, whatever, I dont know the class).

That will stop a lot of whining.

edit:
oh and fix the los, pet-stealth, PA-not-in-view etc etc.

 

[[RG]Thorey]

Re: Read again

Originally posted by Mageling



1) You mean to say that enforced “restealth” once every ten minutes is too hard?

2) This is a game based on team play. Like it or not all classes will be modified to be more group friendly. Btw you only play a stealth class I assume.

3) My post did not say: make all stealth classes able to use stealth only once every ten minutes. Get the point?

4) Scouts got what they should be getting. Too bad it took so long time. They will hopefully be given some abilities in the line with scouting (camo?).

5) How about we bring back the old debuffs (beta) values of the champion, I mean since then they been gimped by your own words, right? Think they debuffed constitution and strength for 140ish with best debuff. I bet 99% of the champion population want that back, what you think? I say they were fixed.

6) Hatt, you made less sense than your friend, so I didn’t bother.

1) Its stupid, you dont cut off a skalds speed every 10 min so he has to recast..pointless

2)Assasins are made to solo..yes I do do kthx

3)Point? ahhh
An objective or purpose to be reached or achieved, or one that is worth reaching or achieving: What is the point of discussing this issue further? -- Get the nerf?

4)They are gimped..GG

5)K

6)K?

 

[censi]

one thing that unanimous on all these posts is "remove see hidden" even assasins are saying it... forget camoflage just get rid of see hidden... give archers more con to.....

 

[thebinarysurfer]

Originally posted by -yoda-
imo i dont think see hidden kills bow classes so much as they say . they just cant solo as EASY s they used to "aussie and elesias seem to do wel still" .
i dont play a bow class so i dont know how it is for them but as a mins our stealth sucks anyway so see hidden wont help much .

i think the option to stop bow classes complaining so much is to make see hidden on a timer . or as stated above take away see hidden and give em all true sight . "on a timer" .


yes assasins will complain . but imo assasins wont be seen unless they want to "or a bowclass uses true sight" so taking away there passive see hidden doesnt affect them as much it just doesnt let them see snipers 25/7 . so imo no call to complain .

I made my ranger to be a stealth sniper - the idea of appealed to me - thats WHY i started a ranger - if i wanted to melee i'd have made a nightshade or a hero/bm/champ.

The reason there is so much anger over the archer classes is that we all started out playing them to be stealth snipers (most of us anwyays) - halfway through after many long very hard hours of being unwanted in xp groups and generally shunned as a whole xp'ing wise, mythic decides 'hmm lets make this change that removes their ability to easily kill their primary targets - mages'. Ok fair enough - we were overpowered i'll concede that - i can still kill mages if i'm smart about it - just requires more timing and positioning now and if the mage reacts fast they stand a decent chance of living.

Then they turn around again and remove our other advantage - our ability to move into a sniping spot unseen. You can bitch and whine about us killing in a few hits and getting away all you like but our class is designed around hitting your target with suprise.
We cant kill any other way - if you see an archer standing there drawing a bow on you do you a) smile and wave and bend over for the arrows, or b) charge him and beat/nuke him into the ground.

In any case - Odessyus is onto something i think with his post - unless camo's timer is dropped to under 5 minutes i cant see it helping vastly. Another suggestion - give archers passive group enhancement abilities (dependent on level - 'cause lets face it we wont get autotrained stealth) - stuff that wont replace existing buffs/heals/chants but rather complement them and make us desired in groups.

 

[kinadold]

I think Mageling got killed by an archer, but these days only
the noob mages lose to an archer.

I mean, 1000 hp, slash resist, qc, AUTOFACE, autotarget on last attacker, bt, pbt, nearsight, cruisemissile class pets, 600+ nukes, stun, root, mezz. Lol at you Mageling

2) This is a game based on team play. Like it or not all classes will be modified to be more group friendly. Btw you only play a stealth class I assume.

What groupabilities have archers gotten ? Lol at you Mageling

3) My post did not say: make all stealth classes able to use stealth only once every ten minutes. Get the point?

Lets talk about a wallfight then. A unstealthed archer moves in to
shoot at a mage. They see eachother at same time, archer prepare a shoot (4 sec) and mage cast a stun (qc 1 sec ).
Well archer is very lucky and resist the stun and fires at mage, but hits the bt. New round. Archer prepares a crit (4 sec) and mage cast a stun (2 sec). Well i think it has to be a lucky archer
to resist 2 stuns in a row. Now archer didn't resist and is nuked
for 600 around every 2 sec. Lol at you Mageling

4) Scouts got what they should be getting. Too bad it took so long time. They will hopefully be given some abilities in the line with scouting (camo?).

You are not only dumb, you actually likes when other players
chars get so nerfed, they can do little else than sit at telekeep and look, even after countless hours of leveling an archer. Your
a prick, a moron and a disgrace to this game.

I bloody hope you aint from Albion. Enough said.

 

[cjkaceBM]

What stealth FFS?

IT'S INVISIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Archers shouldn't have stealth the way it is - they should have camo - the ability to blend into their surroundings but nor be totally invisible - and their name tag should be removed.

Assassins should have disguise - the ability to assume the shape/form of any mob in that zone or adjacent ones.

 

[kinadold]

Well what are you going to give archers to compensate ?
Archers aint so easy to play these days and dam on a lv 50 tank is around 250 on a 4 sec shoot, and when you consider he has 2000 hp.....

Well my calculations tells me it takes atleast 25+ sec for any archer to kill a tank class, and considering you cant fire in melee
an archers only defense is stealth.

So maybe give them more dam and remove stealth ?

Who do you think that will hurt most, tanks without bt or allready
pretty strong mages with bt ?

As it is today archers do much less dam than any mage and is no serious treat to any class except low hp classes, or people at wallfights who has to move into range and stay there while getting shoot at.

Have you any idea how many shoots it takes to kill a hero ?

Well take my stealth but give me mageclass dam on a 2 sec
shoot, then we can talk. Btw like any mages i want to pierce
pbt, because hardly fair against this new magearcher.

Now plz cut this crap. All those who think archers are overpowered borrow one from some friend, and try it yourself.

PS : Next patch archers will have crush and trust arrows. Do you
think Mythic would give this xtra to a 'uber'-dam class ? They are
compensating with camo and damtypes to make archers just a little less nerfed.

 

[old.Odysseus]

and heavy longbows kinad, dont forget those

About the archers that 'solo' these day (someone mentioned Aussie and Eleasias):

Aussie mostly hangs around a zerg, trying to make the most of it, as he can no longer rely on stealth to protect him.
Eleasias: Last 25 times I saw him, he was grouped. No solo there.

I think those 2 represent fairly well what has happened to the solo archer:
a) get into a group
b) hang around a zerg and leech it with long range

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

I agree with the fact that a minstrel having TS might be overpowered, due to speed, and heard some good points being made here.
But if you look at the facts, a casters might have 1200hp, and a scout about 1300hp, the extra range of a scout can partly be reached via bolts of a caster, bolts that do similar damage when compared to a scout, and pierce bt....
Casters have crowd control, scouts do not. Scouts were made to be played solo, but got royally screwed over by Mythic...
Right now, casters are the once that own rvr, due to cc and hard nukes. The upcoming changes in ra's might help a little, but to be honest, it is silly that a tank needs ra's to get closer to a caster.
So if we agree all the damage is done with casters in rvr (why would people kill them first each battle?)
There were 2 caster killers, namely scouts and assasins (remember, assasins could stay stealthed if they killed the caster in one hit...) Right now casters only have to fear assasins, but as of yet there are not so many yet that it makes a big impact, but soon all those people who are making assasin alts will hit emain. There are REALLY loads being made, so if Mythic keeps this up we will have stealth battles at the amg with only assasin classes....
It should be so easy for Mythic, just implement a softer nerf for scouts.. take away see hidden, and take away TS from scouts and give to assasins... See hidden is ruining one specific player class. But, no way Mythic will ever listen, it is sickening...
They seem to be so f'ing dumb, it is unreal. They should listen a bit more to the players. It is not like we are asking for a I win button like instant aoe mezz on a Bard or anything.
Regards, Glottis

 

[old.Odysseus]

actually see hidden hurts not only archers, but also minstrels.
did minstrels need a nerf?
no?
why dont they get camo?
has mythic considered the sideeffects of their nerfs?

i hear it every day from assassins now: 'we dont like see hidden, no solo archers to own'.

archers has gone silent and are slowly leaving the game or playing alts.

reminds me of my strafeazon in D2.

 

[thebinarysurfer]

Taking away see hidden wont happen - for mythic to do that would be admitting a serious mistake - and the resulting loss of face and credability (like they have any anyways in light of their 'patching' over the last few months) is something they wont stomach.

The best we can hope for is a reduction in the effectiveness of see hidden - and i think we're pushing it at this.

The archer class a headless chicken atm - still running but with no purpose and direction and only a small time before it falls down stone dead.

Do SOMETHING mythic - or you will lose a lot of players - a significant number of archers had such a hard time getting to 50 they wont bother making other characters (after all from out point of view mythic will just nerf them again right?)

 

[Aussie-]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus

Aussie mostly hangs around a zerg, trying to make the most of it, as he can no longer rely on stealth to protect him.

I soloed my last 200k+ the last week in gorge tnx.
And i can camp it for 1-2 hours with Nightshades looking for me .
Can't explain how i play. some Aussiehunters reading this too :x

 

[old.Sepiritz]

I dont like see hidden (as an assassin) as it really is too powerful to be passive, its true.

Though I dont like the fact that archers could (before SH) crit, kill, run and get away almost every time. It was a bit too good (at that range).

And yes, stealth has always been overpowered (invisibility) but if they nerf all stealthclasses now it will ruin the classes of those who have struggled hard to get to where they are and to play that class they wanted so much they clung to it for 50 hard levels.

Just like archers, it would be a kick in the face if assassins get their stealth nerfed. Just like it would be if say a tank got their weapons removed and replaced with a napkin and no recompensation at all, even if they had it easier to level then rogues to start with.

All im saying is, dont NERF, dont EVER nerf.
Compensate the guys that are at a loss instead.

Though in this case I dont think assassins need to be nerfed as I find it that if I make a successful kill im most likely dead the second after anyways. A kill for a kill, can it get much fairer?

How often do I run into a solo caster that I can kill and eat pie (mmmm pie) on his corpse do you suppose? Not happened more then perhaps once in several weeks.

How often do I run into a caster and his caster friend that would qc a stun on me to stop my second and killing blow and nuke me to tiny tiny stinky little bits if I tried to attack? Almost all the time..

Or a shieldstun, or a Mez, or whatever kind of hindering move there is because there are plenty and they all mean certain death to an assassin (enemy regroups and attacks from range or just zerg me).

 

[thebinarysurfer]

Originally posted by Aussie-



I soloed my last 200k+ the last week in gorge tnx.
And i can camp it for 1-2 hours with Nightshades looking for me .
Can't explain how i play. some Aussiehunters reading this too :x

Rofl yeah right. You kill from up on the zone wall at the closest non-aggro point of the guards - which with your longbow can reach inside the guards.
When you've taken the shot unless they are totally alone you run back up to the zone wall and either log out in a safeish place, or run over towards the sett camp and fins and lurk there. Most of the good Nightshades can and do find you.

To your credit they usually take you in pairs due to the annoying slam and IP

It'll be nice when we get those realm guards on the zone walls like mid has - lets see ur longbow reach them doors then

 

[coilla]

do assasins have a natural enemy? like archers have assasins and mage r supposed to have archers. every time i get shunned for a group in emain and i set out to follow the zerge solo i just hope there r not to many SBs and shades out there to pick on me off when all the groups with speed run off. how offten does a assassin have to worry about certain classes being about in large numbers today?

Oh and i hope the reason the nerf bat hasnt been droped on assasins yet is that mythic r thinking it through this time, unlike some of ther other nerfs on archers and smite clerics (dont know much about the smite nerf, but from all the bitching it sounds like it wasnt done very well). hopefully they will give u lot some nerfs but not clasgimping ones and give other classes some way to restrict u.

 

[hotrat]

I soloed my last 200k+ the last week in gorge tnx.
And i can camp it for 1-2 hours with Nightshades looking for me .

Indeed scouts can still just about solo, you just need to hide a bit more, and because of the long range

which with your longbow can reach inside the guards.

you dont even need to get that close. But hibs don't exactly have a lot of high lvl nightshades atm, soloing in gorge will get a lot harder as time goes by.
Minstrel is far more like assasin in the way they have to kill, unlike a sniper they CANNOT kill anyone from range, they have to get close so we cant just crit, shoot then run and restealth and we never could. We could also never kill anyone in the middle of a large group of enemies.
Mythic clearly made see hidden to nerf snipers and just totally forgot about minstrels

And yes i know Alpha can still solo in gorge really well, but slash spec + buffs make's NS's pretty easy solo and he also lots of nice RA's Also like i said before not that many hib assasins with SH ... yet.