Mythics view on bards...

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Solstice
mincers got 100 new nice tools??!? show me pleaaaase

And not every TL write reports like that, some of them r honest and really try to balance things.

something called overstatement maybe?

storm is prolly not the only one that needs to get out more...

and btw, if you do get out, you can hear in the tone of the voice when it's sarcasm/overstatement/whatever, can't do that from what someone has written.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Gahldir
1. ...etc

ok and now read the part where ekydus said this "Your sarcasm meter not beep for that one retard? " and that was meant to storm. So why are you trying to explain to anyone why those points brought up are wrong?

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Solstice
what he said

And a last mental note to myself: Don't bother to discuss with hibs about the role of somer classes, they're so used to have everything they need in one class, they just think its a must.

:bore: :bore: :bore:

While you at it, make a mental note to try play that class before deciding how good it is.

 

[Ekydus]

Collecting evidence without making assumptions would be nice too Nol.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Ekydus
Collecting evidence without making assumptions would be nice too Nol.

I am not assuming he has not played a bard to 50, if he had, he would have a completely different attitude.

I am prepared to debate the worthiness of the TL's requests, where he just dismisses them as rubbish and declares the class fine.

Prior to the ablative changes patch on minstrels, many people though them already overpowered. After the changes, even more so believe them overpowered, I wonder what the view is with regards to that whole debate?

P.S. You're assuming that I am assuming

 

[Lumikki]

Just out of interest, how many healers really have MoC?

xx

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Lumikki
Just out of interest, how many healers really have MoC?

xx

all healers with rr5-6+ should have it or get it very soon.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by driwen
ok and now read the part where ekydus said this "Your sarcasm meter not beep for that one retard? " and that was meant to storm. So why are you trying to explain to anyone why those points brought up are wrong?

see the post I wrote above the post of yours.

 

[Divinia]

Solstice get above RR3 and get to know the class, then u play a bard to RR6 and talk about the class. and then u can go and search for some clues together withinfernalwrath since u don seem to have any at all. kthx.

 

[Solstice]

yay im rerolling Hib!!

Does most ppl attitude suck there 2?

Anyway, will join TdMM and zerg til 5:00 am

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Solstice
yay im rerolling Hib!!

Does most ppl attitude suck there 2?

Anyway, will join TdMM and zerg til 5:00 am

As opposed to zerging from 6pm to 1am? Gonna need to work shifts mate.

 

[Solstice]

Originally posted by old.Nol
As opposed to zerging from 6pm to 1am? Gonna need to work shifts mate.

fyi im a solo mincer. No fun in zerg vs zerg when ur a primary target. Sometimes i group with old guildies but i hate random groups.

I just waste my time stalking some solo hippies as they leave Gorge

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Solstice
fyi im a solo mincer. No fun in zerg vs zerg when ur a primary target. Sometimes i group with old guildies but i hate random groups.

I just waste my time stalking some solo hippies as they leave Gorge

WTFPWNED!!?! you can solo!??

Bards can't solo, ever, NERF MINSTRELS!

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Solstice
Music – Bards are given one form of crowd control on a single immunity timer. As such, a bard’s crowd control ability is rendered useless once the initial mez has either worn off or been purged. Giving bards a PBAE Snare or root would help the survivability issue mentioned above, and give bards an emergency back up when Mesmerize fails......

-----ofc we Mincers and sorcs don't have that kind of problems with mezz, cry mooooore....[/q]

A sorc can spec for 44 mind / 30 body and get AoE-root as backup and ST-root baseline. Minstrel isn't main mezzer in the realm but has ST stun shout as backup CC. Theurgist can spec for AoE-root and AoE-mezz (I consider them as 2nd CC'er)

Healer has ST-root, AoE-mezz and AoE-stun as forms of CC.

If you compare primary CC-classes (sorc, healer, bard) you will notice that the bard is the only main CC'er who has only access to 1 CC-form.

What's a bard, Mr. TL? a healing class? a hybrid tank class? or a support class?

This TL guy is teh funneh

Do you consider that the bard runs around in reinforced armour and Evade 2? That is his ONLY form of defense after his initial CC has worn off.

A minstrel still has his stun shout, chain, evade 2 and stealth and doesn't provide endurance-regen (very important) to the realm.

Mincers, as a healing class, need MoC and some insta heals in the Instruments line.
Mincers, as a support class, need better CC, insta AOE mezz with uhmm lets say 2500 range should be ok. We want str/con and dex/quick buffs too.
Mincers, as a hybrid tank class, need shield and parry spec, givf us plate and wtf we can't spend our time switching from instruments to weapons, let us use our shield as a drum /bang /bang and give 16.5 dps, 3.0 spd to our flutes so we can use them as a stiletto.

blah blah blah blahalblablablahbla let us wtfpwn everything

Dunno what you're saying at all, but a minstrel is a rogue class hybrid fighter. It has a specline for melee and a specline for stealth (shares this with all rogues) and has a unique line Instruments. Minstrels get the best armour of all Rogues.

IMO if a minstrel cries for things what would overpower the bard he has no clue about the game and most of all the difference between the bard and the minstrel. The ONLY thing they share is being a singer-class and bringing speed5. Both can spec melee BUT the bard needs to spec in 2 lines for his songs so not much room left for melee.

 

[Solstice]

Originally posted by old.Nol
WTFPWNED!!?! you can solo!??

Bards can't solo, ever, NERF MINSTRELS!

Bards can't solo? ask VF, she killed me with her bard few times. Omfg a healing class hunting down an uber rogue class!! NERF!!

Did i mention i have no acceso to a BB?

You don't need skills, u don't need to play a FoTM, u just need a buffbot. I can't afford having a BB so ill go back and play CS or Q3 where skills (and ping ) actually makes the difference.

 

[Divinia]

Originally posted by Solstice
Bards can't solo? ask VF, she killed me with her bard few times. Omfg a healing class hunting down an uber rogue class!! NERF!!

Did i mention i have no acceso to a BB?

You don't need skills, u don't need to play a FoTM, u just need a buffbot. I can't afford having a BB so ill go back and play CS or Q3 where skills (and ping ) actually makes the difference.

so i get a buffbot and all off a sudden i can solo alpha osv.?

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Solstice
Bards can't solo? ask VF, she killed me with her bard few times. Omfg a healing class hunting down an uber rogue class!! NERF!!

Did i mention i have no acceso to a BB?

You don't need skills, u don't need to play a FoTM, u just need a buffbot. I can't afford having a BB so ill go back and play CS or Q3 where skills (and ping ) actually makes the difference.

You got PWNED! by VF *lol* - no wonder you're bitching.

 

[Solstice]

Puppet, i agree with u in everything u said

My initial post was BS and i didn't think what i was typing. End of story, ok?

:wub:

 

[Divinia]

hmm

 

[Solstice]

Originally posted by old.Nol
You got PWNED! by VF *lol* - no wonder you're bitching.

I don't expect to win much m8. And yes i said i got pwned by VF's bard. Got pwned by a drood (OMG!! a drood!!, u can laugh more at me now) some days ago at Gorge, he was pl a grey con. As i said, any other class can kick my unbuffed, epic armor+drops wearer+99%qual weap with no DD toon.

What part didn't u understand?

But all that is crap, it's all about skills and noobishness.

 

[Solstice]

Originally posted by Divinia
so i get a buffbot and all off a sudden i can solo alpha osv.?

Sorry, was my fault, RR has something to do with that too.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Solstice
I don't expect to win much m8. And yes i said i got pwned by VF's bard. Got pwned by a drood (OMG!! a drood!!, u can laugh more at me now) some days ago at Gorge, he was pl a grey con. As i said, any other class can kick my unbuffed, epic armor+drops wearer+99%qual weap with no DD toon.

What part didn't u understand?

But all that is crap, it's all about skills and noobishness.

You need to SC then, a mincer with SC is toasted, same as a bard. Low rr, epic wearing bards are fodder.

 

[infernalwrath]

Originally posted by StormriderX
The other 2 realms cant stun then?

Or assist kill?

yeah rigth theu nukes with spec dd the bard for 180(-300) damage cause he has 50% ressist or maybe for 50 damage cause he has baod on
rm with 50% cold debuff can kill teh cleric
4 savages assists > bof
COME ON

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by infernalwrath
yeah rigth theu nukes with spec dd the bard for 180(-300) damage cause he has 50% ressist or maybe for 50 damage cause he has baod on
rm with 50% cold debuff can kill teh cleric
4 savages assists > bof
COME ON

4 Savages assists > Frank Sinatra IMO

Sorry mate, I have no idea what you're implying/saying?

 

[Begach]

Short version

Solstice : Your a n00b who knows fuckall about the bard class, the role it performs, it's abilities or the challenges it faces. I suggest you head back out an acually RvR some before making yourself look real fuckin stoopid to any player in any realm who actually has RvR'd with or against a bard for any length of time.

Nol : A bard IS a hybrid. They have a spec line both melee and magic. That makes then a hybrid just like warden, skald, mincer etc. The fact they are the weakest (due to spec point restrictions and shit defences) doesn't chance this fact.

Long version

End regen : The bard is the only end providing class that from the second he meets an enemy group gets spammed with every taunt shout known to man. Most of the time if a single alb or mid char resist mezz they have some form of shout to keep the bard end regen down. Alb's have no idea wtf i'm talkin about and mids, sorry but mythic made you the laughable trainer mode joke in this respect. Fix the interrupts, do not make it a chant.

New Dodger RA/ Lack of Advanced Evade : Mythic gave bard dodger as a way of improving thier survivability but failed to figure this in line with what a bard actually does. A 360 degree arc is required for this to be of any use at all to a bard and provides nothing more. Quit being twats an let bards actually get some use out of dodger.

Snares/Root : Nope sorry but strongly dissagree here. I play a bard, mostly solo but the occasional group and this is too much. In group yes i agree that bard needs some help but do not agree with it being added to the bard char. Put this on warden imo. Mythic have made a joke of thier one real strong function, PBT with fast hitting dmg dealing light tanks (savages, merc, zerk) so it'd be thier nice new thing imo. As a solo bard i can tell you right now that i'd be a fuckin nightmare to kill if i had a snare or root added to my line. I aint looking for bard to be the next FoTM unkillable hybrid here, just for mythic to give them some sensible defence for a fully group specced bard. I see little reason to add to thier already overutilisation in a group.

Ablative : needs looking at. Sounds nice but needs some work before adding it imo. Hibs are thinking mincer got ablative right? why can't we? Answer mincers armour is generally shite to the two most common dmg types in the game (slash/thrust). We are looking for balance here, not alb/mids worst nightmare. That same ablative with hib RF (bard/BM's mostly) and we may have a problem. Add the fact that i'm not quite sure exactly how it fits in since a bard should already have a song active which, looking at the response, is here for good.
NOTE: i am aware that mythic paid no feckin heed to this for alb. It in my eye's was intended as a dmg reducer for solo minstrels. Alb don't and didn't need more melee defense in groups, but they got it anyway.

My view here on why mythic are draggin thier asses : bards a complex class to balance. There's 2 extremes to the class. Solo specced and group specced (heal or mezz). The 2 are fairly mutually exclusive. Bard, like any other hybrid if played accuratly in the solo spec are very strong. The issue is in the group config they lack survivabiity. Anything you give a group bard i shouldn't get or you'll create a monster. Now lets look at the list here for a sec of what we're proposing bearing in mind that in this patch based on experience (and me not being drunk or me playing shite) i typically would not expect a same RR minstrel to win me me 1 on 1 and at best have to SoS (all RA's up etc):

End chant : OMFG yes, any mincers out there who have faced me solo fancy giving me perma end in combat??

Ablative : Again OMFG yes, that plus my RF v's mincer slash wohoooooo.

Already I'm sure you can see the disparity and the potential for making a nice group char and completly feckin up balance for the char solo. I do not want a similar situation to BD where no fecker will even attempt to take me solo. It's the very reason i play the game. N00bs gank me, good players either kill me solo or die trying. I do not want to give them an extra excuse to jump me in 2's and 3's.

Now all the group bards insert your "j00 clueless n00b" shit here. I have and do solo a bard and know what it's capable of and I'm already dreaming up new and improved ways of killing multiple targets with the above changes and imo that aint good.

B.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
A sorc can spec for 44 mind / 30 body and get AoE-root as backup and ST-root baseline. Minstrel isn't main mezzer in the realm but has ST stun shout as backup CC. Theurgist can spec for AoE-root and AoE-mezz (I consider them as 2nd CC'er)

Healer has ST-root, AoE-mezz and AoE-stun as forms of CC.

If you compare primary CC-classes (sorc, healer, bard) you will notice that the bard is the only main CC'er who has only access to 1 CC-form.



Do you consider that the bard runs around in reinforced armour and Evade 2? That is his ONLY form of defense after his initial CC has worn off.

A minstrel still has his stun shout, chain, evade 2 and stealth and doesn't provide endurance-regen (very important) to the realm.



Dunno what you're saying at all, but a minstrel is a rogue class hybrid fighter. It has a specline for melee and a specline for stealth (shares this with all rogues) and has a unique line Instruments. Minstrels get the best armour of all Rogues.

IMO if a minstrel cries for things what would overpower the bard he has no clue about the game and most of all the difference between the bard and the minstrel. The ONLY thing they share is being a singer-class and bringing speed5. Both can spec melee BUT the bard needs to spec in 2 lines for his songs so not much room left for melee.

wtf has ST got to do with CC?

anyway, mincer doesn't have wield an instrument when in battle bcuz abla is a chant and not a song. therefor mincer have yet another form of defence bards lack, shield. would be so uber gimped if mincers needed say a lute for this, but that is pretty much the deal for a bard.

also would like to add that if a bard want all songs, mezzes and DDs he doesn't only need nurt and music, but also reg for uberpwnage healsong! Oo

 

[Begach]

PS Nerf that post length

B.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Solstice
I don't expect to win much m8. And yes i said i got pwned by VF's bard. Got pwned by a drood (OMG!! a drood!!, u can laugh more at me now) some days ago at Gorge, he was pl a grey con. As i said, any other class can kick my unbuffed, epic armor+drops wearer+99%qual weap with no DD toon.

What part didn't u understand?

But all that is crap, it's all about skills and noobishness.

nature speced druids is one of the most deadliest solo chars imo.

 

[Begach]

Originally posted by Gahldir
nature speced druids is one of the most deadliest solo chars imo.

What he said.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by infernalwrath
yeah rigth theu nukes with spec dd the bard for 180(-300) damage cause he has 50% ressist or maybe for 50 damage cause he has baod on
rm with 50% cold debuff can kill teh cleric
4 savages assists > bof
COME ON

rm with 50% cold debuff can kill teh bard aswell. and note that baod is NOT on bard, but BoF IS on Cleric

and

4 savages assists >> no bof