mythic view on determination/hybrids etc

[Jiggs]

friar tl made a good question about the pure tank v hybrid problem situation:

New Issues

In the last report, it was suggested that group based RvR had been pushed to caster heavy combat. Much has changed since then, with the drive toward heavy melee combat. Tanks with Determination and/or Prevent flight are now the highly sought after combatants for group RvR. Whether the flavor of the month is caster or tank, however, hybrids without the access to the cheap tank RAs and without the damage a caster can deal, are often left on the sidelines. The answer is not to give Friars (and other hybrids) more damage or access to the cheap tank RAs, but to improve their Hybrid line (in the case of friars, rejuvenation) to make them more desirable and give them more overall utility.

mythic response is tbh the most worrying thing i've read:

It's very interesting that such a sweeping change has occured between reports and I suspect this might be server specific. Some servers still having casters doing well, and others having had tank groups being predominant all along.

Either way, let's look at this during the RA review. It scares me to consider changes to things that seem to be swinging back and forth too quickly; much prefer to wait for the results of changes to stabilize before trying to address a problem.

do they have a clue what sort of game they have created?

 

[Elric IA]

Cannot remember if it was the champ or thane TL report but the answer mythic gave was that they were determined that hybrids would not get determination. Certainly the champ unique RA rather than being group friendly would probably in most circumstances break mezzes etc and even used in a solo situation is only twice the damage of a normal DD on a 30 min timer. Off the top of my head i cannot think of any hybrid unique RA (other than VW one) which is group friendly at all.

 

[Subbiz]

skald unique is grp friendly, but it sucks, noone got it

 

[old.TeaSpoon]

Paladin RA is group friendly

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Elric IA
Cannot remember if it was the champ or thane TL report but the answer mythic gave was that they were determined that hybrids would not get determination. Certainly the champ unique RA rather than being group friendly would probably in most circumstances break mezzes etc and even used in a solo situation is only twice the damage of a normal DD on a 30 min timer. Off the top of my head i cannot think of any hybrid unique RA (other than VW one) which is group friendly at all.

Paladin, minstrel, bard, warden

 

[Ensceptifica]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Paladin, minstrel, bard, warden

Warden RA breaks mez and is bugged. Group unfriendly imo.

 

[Dorin]

mythic not playing their own game, if they do they are focus pulling somewhere in CF and thats it.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
Warden RA breaks mez and is bugged. Group unfriendly imo.

Ofcourse it breaks mesmerize and yes, first 'tick' doesnt stick which is annoying too.

However it can be very nice to use once bard his only CC has worn off.

We used it quite a few times in heavy fights and/or with adds on Prydwen and while it's nowhere near an insta-win button (do they even exist in game?) it can be great for creating a kite-field for enemy-tanks (honest!)

I love it when a warden puts down the field and allows me to kite tanks through it so I can shake them loose (I am a druid).

But aye, dropping it on a pack of nicely mezzed enemies is very bad. I suppose if a noob warden uses it wrong it can be a bigger pain then anything

Still think it's a nice RA if used properly. And the other hybrids I named got great RA's too.

However, I dont think RA's are the key to making hybrids more desirable. There has to be some difference between 'pure tanks' and hybrids otherwise everyone wants the hybrid

I just hope Mythic nerfs Determination badly (5% per level instead of 15% for instance) and lowers some costs on RA's for hybrids. IP is way too expensive for a hybrid to be honest and I dont see why Purge has to be more expensive for hybrids, both need it (and alot)

 

[Zaragon]

Hybrids need some love i would like to see more Thanes and champs even friar have hard time getting groups these days.
Nerf det our give hybrids some group friendly abilitys, lower cost on RAs our some new usefull special RAs .

 

[BidAccount]

One of their principle problems is basing changes on information from US servers only, and given that 90% of Americans are complete fucktards its not wonder you get screwups.

Determination doesn't need a nerf - its a sound RA, although an emergency fix to deal with ridiculous CC abilities (what were they thinking - 1 min plus mez/roots in a game where fights take 30 secs!). Reduce CC duration and ae effects and determination can drop.

The other major screwup is giving the highest damage output at range to casters, but then providing no defence against it! Lower the cost/increase the effectiveness of AOM and add in other defense forms for nukes - then look at interupts/caster defence/casting whilst being attacked.

But al their feedback is from US servers - so prepare for another round of knee jerk fuckups.

 

[JawZ]

I don't think Mythic will nerf determination since they have stated that they don't want more CC in the game. And since everyone whines about standing around being mezzed... this kinda whine would increase again ;>

And have you thought of this:

Mid Insta/AE stun would actually be usefull again if they nerfed determination.

 

[vintervargen]

Originally posted by JawZ
Mid Insta/AE stun would actually be usefull again if they nerfed determination.

insta ae stun good for getting off perfect ae mez.

castable ae stun good for pbaoe pve or against caster grps.

 

[JawZ]

Originally posted by vintervargen
insta ae stun good for getting off perfect ae mez.

castable ae stun good for pbaoe pve or against caster grps.

Yes that's it's current use, maybe you didn't actually read what I wrote though...

If they nerfed determination to somewhere around 5% / level I don't think anyone would raise it higher than lvl 3-4 thus giving tanks a total of 15-20% reduction.

This would give ae stun some use vs tanks.

It wouldn't be as good as it once was but it would be better than it is now, got my point?

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by vintervargen
insta ae stun good for getting off perfect ae mez.

castable ae stun good for pbaoe pve or against caster grps.

currently ae stun doesn't stop tanks wtih high det, just breaks thier speed ;/

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by JawZ
I don't think Mythic will nerf determination since they have stated that they don't want more CC in the game. And since everyone whines about standing around being mezzed... this kinda whine would increase again ;>

Would only change something for pure tanks, the rest of the classes are mezzed/stunned/rooted just as before.

It's a big plus if you got determination but lots of classes dont have it. Those classes are screwed in RvR nowadays. Determination 5 is 5x 15% = 75% CC-reduction, basically (in combination with resist-buff etc) completelty bypassing any CC. Thats not fair against the CC-classes, is it ?

And have you thought of this:

Mid Insta/AE stun would actually be usefull again if they nerfed determination.

Ehm, its just as useful now on support, hybrids and casters. It works poorly against pure tanks. Healers got same problem as other casters/ CC'ers, a complete spell almost not working on some classes.

That is just silly, 15% per level is way too much.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
currently ae stun doesn't stop tanks wtih high det, just breaks thier speed ;/

Does that matter? It's not the tanks who are going to interrupt your mezz-casting. It's the hybrids and casters who could do that, but they stand there for several seconds

 

[StormriderX]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
One of their principle problems is basing changes on information from US servers only, and given that 90% of Americans are complete fucktards its not wonder you get screwups.

Bingo

 

[Jiggs]

Originally posted by Pin
Does that matter? It's not the tanks who are going to interrupt your mezz-casting. It's the hybrids and casters who could do that, but they stand there for several seconds

savages have an insta-interrupt taunt shout (sorry couldnt resist)

 

[Jiggs]

anyway the point was that (imo) the friar TL hit the nail bang on the head:

classes without det should get some extra 'group' boosts in their hybrid lines: stormcalling/valour etc etc otherwise there is no point in grouping them..

its just really odd the mythic seem to think det tank groups aren't anything more than a server specific 'fad'...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
savages have an insta-interrupt taunt shout (sorry couldnt resist)

and why is that effecting Midgard's insta stun?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
its just really odd the mythic seem to think det tank groups aren't anything more than a server specific 'fad'...

I don't think it's that they think Det-tank groups are a server-specific fad.

It's that they think (and are correct) that on some servers caster-heavy groups dominate (and it's always debuff-nuking, gg resists!, while on others it's det-tank groups.


But on no servers are there Thane-dominated groups, or Champ/Warden dominated, or groups with 5 Friars/Paladins/Reavers, etc, etc.

I just hope that in his reply, the Friar TL makes the point he is not referring to tank/caster balance, but to tank/hybrid.

 

[JawZ]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Ehm, its just as useful now on support, hybrids and casters.

No, the AE falloff radius didn't exist before.
So it's not as usefull as it was.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by JawZ
No, the AE falloff radius didn't exist before.
So it's not as usefull as it was.

Even at the edge of the radius, the duration is 50% for CC.

So, take a 10s stun on a caster/healer at the edge of the radius, with 60% resists, it's still 2seconds on them, and every Healer out there has <2s AoE mezz cast time.


(Even though he rarely actually needs the 2s as if he gets past the mid-cast point he can only be prevented from completing the cast by stun/mezz/amnesia, which means instants from Bard/close-range-Minstrel, or adds)

 

[JawZ]

Yes it works very nice as an alternative "insta mez" I wrote that in a post above. the only thing im talking about now is that it was better before than it is now.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by JawZ
Yes it works very nice as an alternative "insta mez" I wrote that in a post above. the only thing im talking about now is that it was better before than it is now.

well yeah, it used to be chainable with casted stun, have no duration-reduction, turning everywhere into Thane-paradise, but nvm

 

[JawZ]

Originally posted by Pin
well yeah, it used to be chainable with casted stun, have no duration-reduction, turning everywhere into Thane-paradise, but nvm

Not to mention dem big spears

 

[Jiggs]

Originally posted by Pin
It's that they think (and are correct) that on some servers caster-heavy groups dominate (and it's always debuff-nuking, gg resists!, while on others it's det-tank groups.

no, the only viable casters in fg RvR are: sorcerer/enchanter/eldritch and only one of these will ever be specced to debuff.

debuff groups are all about zerging or jumping into other ppl's fights, just watch zoyster/stt group if u want to see it:

find out where the fight is, run in debuff n00k everything and steal all the realm points, they lose 99% of fg encounters..

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Jiggs
no, the only viable casters in fg RvR are: sorcerer/enchanter/eldritch and only one of these will ever be specced to debuff.

debuff groups are all about zerging or jumping into other ppl's fights, just watch zoyster/stt group if u want to see it:

find out where the fight is, run in debuff n00k everything and steal all the realm points, they lose 99% of fg encounters..

I think Cerdin is enjoying his debuff spec...and as a Reaver I kinda like his spirit debuffs aswell

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
no, the only viable casters in fg RvR are: sorcerer/enchanter/eldritch and only one of these will ever be specced to debuff.

debuff groups are all about zerging or jumping into other ppl's fights, just watch zoyster/stt group if u want to see it:

find out where the fight is, run in debuff n00k everything and steal all the realm points, they lose 99% of fg encounters..

Again, that's looking at Excalibur, and only talking about fg v fg.

Some servers rarely have fg v fg, just pure zerging everywhere and debuff nuking from all realms works.

Mythic don't want to limit the game to fg v fg. They try to cater for everything, and like large-scale (zerg) rvr.

Still no Hybrid-dominated server though

 

[JawZ]

Could always set up a Caster FG rvr event in HW... ops forgot about BAOD ;p but if it didn't exist it would be fun =]