Help My ex-colleague's found religion!

[throdgrain]

I actually now ONLY beleive in Pikey, that was a great post mate.

Nath, I thought Atheism was a belief in not beleiving, whereas being Agnostic means a lack of any particular belief?

 

[nath]

Agnosticism is the idea that we can never completely know everything - it's way more wishy washy.

Atheism is a bit more tricky, some define it as the belief that there is no God, some as the lack of a belief in God. Subtle but fairly important differences - I think it comes down to what you accept as the norm. If you think of the default mindset as a religious one then atheism is deviating from the norm, and it's a belief that there is no God. If you're going from a completely blank slate, then it's just a lack of belief in God.

The way I see it is if one expects it to be referred to as a *belief* that no God exists, then logically I'd have to say that I *believe* that my lamp doesn't control the weather.

 

[Dukat]

I completely disagree - all belief can and should be questioned. However, rynnor has said his wording was not entirely correct and has clarified his point. If you want to discuss your post more I suggest going here. Plenty of atheist elitists there for you to disagree with .

No real desire to go further - I agree with you about belief being questioned, just not condemned, I tried to cover that in my post, the whole "if I go too far... tell me" bit. Might have been a bit too obscure though

Oh well, I guess whatever each of us decides on after reading this thread isn't majorly important - no doubt we'll cover and recover this sort of thing in one form or another again next week or next month.

Its like the circle of life! if you believe in that sort of thing!! (haha)

 

[nath]

I think invalid/incorrect thinking should be condemned to a certain extent - not "you're wrong, and you're a fuckwit" but "that attitude is incorrect and here's why".

edit: I could have sworn these posts were in my new thread - maybe they should be moved there .

 

[Turamber]

I'm sure aggressive atheist preaching will make him feel a lot better and get him on the road to recovery from depression and suicide. What a lucky guy to have such a good friend!

Perhaps just have some respect for somebody who is thinking along different lines to you. He may think it is not for him (the Alpha course is utterly shit by the way) or he may find a belief that helps him to put his life back together.

Some of the aggressive posturing on this forum by atheists is just horrible to read. The same aggression and intellectual conceit that you claim to hate in religions.

 

[rynnor]

I'm sure aggressive atheist preaching will make him feel a lot better and get him on the road to recovery from depression and suicide. What a lucky guy to have such a good friend!

Is this at me? I suggest you try reading my posts in this thread because theres nothing to support your view in them - its weird how people see what they want to see that *amazingly* happens to confirm their own bias...

 

[Scouse]

Don't worry bout it ryn - Turamber doesn't read other posts properly, and even when he does he fails to see the important detail...

 

[SawTooTH]

I'm a non-conformist humanist, I don't know what an atheist is.

 

[pez]

I think its generally accepted that atheism is the belief there is no god. And thats exactly what it is, a belief, at some point you have to take that leap of faith from the hard evidence to the conclusion just like you do with any religion.

Having said that, with atheism the leap of faith is clearly smaller but its still a jump. Well, maybe a hop.

The way I see it is if one expects it to be referred to as a *belief* that no God exists, then logically I'd have to say that I *believe* that my lamp doesn't control the weather.

Thats true if you don't understand how lamps or weather work. If you take everyone's word for it that your lamp doesn't control the weather then yes its a belief. If you actually look for the evidence or yourself prove beyond reasonable doubt through empirical trial that your lamp doesn't control the weather then thats not belief.

 

[Scouse]

I think its generally accepted that atheism is the belief there is no god.

Two things:

1) Wrong thread
2) Wrong assertion.

 

[nath]

I think its generally accepted that atheism is the belief there is no god. And thats exactly what it is, a belief, at some point you have to take that leap of faith from the hard evidence to the conclusion just like you do with any religion.

Having said that, with atheism the leap of faith is clearly smaller but its still a jump. Well, maybe a hop.



I think you're understanding of logic is skewed. You can prove beyond reasonable doubt through trial and error alone that your lamp doesn't control the weather without even getting in to the maths of it.

With God though, at best you can prove a specific interpretation of a specific God doesn't exist.

As has been said, that's only one distorted way of looking at it. Lacking a belief in something that has no evidence does not take a leap of faith at all. Babies are born atheists, they don't take a leap of faith. There's another thread for this here though.

 

[pez]

Well i'm not going to get in to this then in either thread if atheism can mean whatever the poster wants it to mean since its fail from the start.

 

[nath]

Well i'm not going to get in to this then in either thread if atheism can mean whatever the poster wants it to mean since its fail from the start.

Well that's your choice, but atheism doesn't mean whatever the poster wants, it's just its meaning can be debated. However - would you not agree that everyone is born an atheist as they have no idea of God/religion and thus lack any theological belief.

(Seriously though, lets go to the other thread if you want to respond).

 

[Turamber]

Is this at me? I suggest you try reading my posts in this thread

Only found out today that a guy I used to work with has now found jesus - hes on the Alpha course (Home | Alpha UK )

...

Its such a shame - he's a really nice guy, I'm tempted to get back in touch with him but what would I say?

All this in a thread you entitled "My ex-colleague's found religion!". As if his looking into Christianity is worse than being suicidal and depressed. Not sure what exactly there was to misread. I also noted the usual suspects with their lines in anti-religious hatred that they read once in a cool book and now repeat ad infinitum.

 

[Ch3tan]

Maybe you should take the time to read the whole thread before just diving in then.

 

[Turamber]

Maybe you should take the time to read the whole thread before just diving in then.

Maybe, but one gets rather sick of the misinformation and anti-religious propaganda that gets put on this forum, there was quite enough on the first page of the thread.

 

[nath]

that they read once in a cool book and now repeat ad infinitum.

Mmmm, tasty irony. Om nom noms.

Maybe, but one gets rather sick of the misinformation and anti-religious propaganda that gets put on this forum, there was quite enough on the first page of the thread.

Why even post in the thread if you're not willing to actually read through it and actually contribute rather than just playing the wounded minority line. Pretty obnoxious.

 

[Turamber]

Why even post in the thread if you're not willing to actually read through it and actually contribute rather than just playing the wounded minority line. Pretty obnoxious.

I'm obnoxious? Hah, pot meet kettle. I don't see what there was to misunderstand about his post. It was pathetic tbh, and he is just backtracking. Anyway, I'll leave you much superior cool kids. TTFN.

 

[nath]

I'm obnoxious? Hah, pot meet kettle. I don't see what there was to misunderstand about his post. It was pathetic tbh, and he is just backtracking. Anyway, I'll leave you much superior cool kids. TTFN.

I ask again, why bother taking part if you're just going to say shit and run off. If you want to discuss something, continue. If you don't want to, I don't really see the point in posting anything in the first place.

Also, if you actually properly read the posts, things have been pretty civil. It strikes me the things you're having real trouble with is the fact that attitudes are wildly different from your own.

 

[Dukat]

I ask again, why bother taking part if you're just going to say shit and run off. If you want to discuss something, continue. If you don't want to, I don't really see the point in posting anything in the first place.

While I disagree with the way Turamber is acting, I have to admit that some of these threads turn into nit-picking and tedious semantics pretty quickly, and very rarely, if ever, does anyone ever agree with eachoter at the end of it - so whats the point in continuing?

Like with my post - I posted what I had to say, made a follow up post, but nothing more to add - sometimes the effort it takes to write a post can be worth it at first, but after it starts to degenerate into flaiming its just a waste of time.

Sometimes its good just to state your point of view, without descending into a 'serious' debate.

 

[nath]

While I disagree with the way Turamber is acting, I have to admit that some of these threads turn into nit-picking and tedious semantics pretty quickly, and very rarely, if ever, does anyone ever agree with eachoter at the end of it - so whats the point in continuing?

Like with my post - I posted what I had to say, made a follow up post, but nothing more to add - sometimes the effort it takes to write a post can be worth it at first, but after it starts to degenerate into flaiming its just a waste of time.

Sometimes its good just to state your point of view, without descending into a 'serious' debate.

Some of them do, but so far neither of the two threads have. They've remained civil and on topic.

Plus, stating an opinion and not sticking around to either have it challenged or back it up is pretty weak. If you're not willing to enter in to a discussion it just becomes like so many threads on the internet - everyone gives their own opinion and there's no discourse.

 

[old.user4556]

Plus, stating an opinion and not sticking around to either have it challenged or back it up is pretty weak.

Indeed. It's almost a bit "la la la not listening" ergo childish.

 

[Dukat]

Some of them do, but so far neither of the two threads have. They've remained civil and on topic.

Plus, stating an opinion and not sticking around to either have it challenged or back it up is pretty weak. If you're not willing to enter in to a discussion it just becomes like so many threads on the internet - everyone gives their own opinion and there's no discourse.

Yea fair enough - I can see the reasoning behind that point of view.

I just dislike discussions that revolve around two or more people stating exactly the same things in different ways, page after page, I guess we've all done it at one point or other, but I generally - with a few exceptions - avoid threads that look like they're headed that way because it just gets too frustrating...

I guess that means I'm not very good at debating but I figure that if I can't get my point of view across in a few posts, theres not much chance of it happening at all.

 

[nath]

That's fair enough, but like I said - fortunately it hasn't happened in these ones.

 

[Dukat]

Indeed. It's almost a bit "la la la not listening" ergo childish.

Surely posting the same drivel time after time, and not even listening to anyone, even when every other person in the thread is disagreeing, is far worse than saying "Ok, no one's getting what I'm saying, so I'll back out now."

I would say it actually shows a certain level of maturity to do that in certain situations.

I really think that its a gross generalisation to say that everyone who posts a couple of times then backs out is being childish. Granted, it occassionally irks me as well, when people do it because it denies you the chance to get your point of view across, but it really does depend on the context a great deal.

 

[old.user4556]

Woooooooooah, to quote Trem on another thread "i'm not going near that thread".

Bye!

 

[nath]

Surely posting the same drivel time after time, and not even listening to anyone, even when every other person in the thread is disagreeing, is far worse than saying "Ok, no one's getting what I'm saying, so I'll back out now."

I would say it actually shows a certain level of maturity to do that in certain situations.

I really think that its a gross generalisation to say that everyone who posts a couple of times then backs out is being childish. Granted, it occassionally irks me as well, when people do it because it denies you the chance to get your point of view across, but it really does depend on the context a great deal.

Hold on a sec - posting a few things then leaving is fine, but it depends on the content. Posting something along the lines of "you don't know what you're talking about and you're all bastards" then leaving, is crap. I agree there are those threads where everyone is a brick wall with a loudspeaker, but in those cases, there's really no need to post anything. Plus, agaaaain, the threads here have remained civil.

 

[SawTooTH]

I thought this post was about the revelation that someone can suddenly find an answer to their lives in a belief system. Well big deal, its not uncommon, though maybe a shock to people who thought they understood that person.

Personally I have no problem with other peoples beliefs and if that works for them then good luck to them.

I only take issue when people force their beliefs on others and there are many societies out there today where religion and state are intertwined and people suffer as a consequence of religious laws.

 

[rynnor]

I thought this post was about the revelation that someone can suddenly find an answer to their lives in a belief system. Well big deal, its not uncommon, though maybe a shock to people who thought they understood that person.

Yes - it was shock that made me post mostly - not just shock at his conversion but more shocking was to find out about his past - his addiction to drugs/alcohol and his long fight with depression and self doubt.

It is a shock to find out that someone you thought you knew moderately well had all this hidden stuff going on in his life.

It makes me think that most people are icebergs - we only see a small chunk of who they are while un-plumbed depths lay beneath.

 

[SawTooTH]

I agree that understanding others is extremely complex. A friend of mine whom I car shared with was a Catholic. We had many conversations about religion. I put it to him one day that my personal position/belief was one of taking personal responsibility for one's actions and that religions tend to absolve people of that responsibility through confession etc. I didn't think I could possibly shake his belief system for one minute, but several years later I bumped into him and one thing he said shocked me. He said he had left the Catholic church and that I had made him re-evaluate his upbringing/programming.

The ironic thing was that he then said he was learning about neural programming which sounded like Scientology. It seems he had replaced one belief system with another. It struck me then and now that some people need to have structure or meaning and explanations for everything when perhaps there isn't one.