Dahakon
Fledgling Freddie
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Murdered for "looking different"
- Thread starter Dahakon
- Start date
Blackjack
Fledgling Freddie
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As long as they serve minimum 16 and 18 years. And don't get let out for "good behaviour" atleast they will have spend half their current life in prison when they get out. But tbh, i would probably have doubled that sentence. Let them rot for around 30 years in something like the southamerican prisons, not the summercamp like jails we have now. Then let them struggle with life when they get out. Death is just way to easy for shit like this. They would get put to death in the "most humane way possible" which is so much more than you can say for the poor girl.
Laddey
FH is my second home
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Don't forget the Xbox Classics and PS2's they are entitled to, also the radio.
Apparently theres some fucking good scran in prison
Mey
Part of the furniture
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- Apr 9, 2005
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When you start beliving this you are letting the daily mail win the battle before it even starts.
Prison is not as easy as you think.
Mey
Part of the furniture
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Er.. you do realise that Murder is Life (there is no years.) They might not get out after 16/18 years, it depands whether they are still deemed dangerous to society etc.. Which given the Judge described them as a pack of wild animals would indicate they will serve much longer than the 16/18 years.
IF anyone finds a full report, inc. what the judge added to the end of his sentence i'd be interested in reading it.
crispy
Can't get enough of FH
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Yes prison rocks!
liloe
It's my birthday today!
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Well I have to admit that my opinion is pretty split on that topic.
On the one hand there is this part that cries out justice and thinks that those guys should be beaten and forced to work naked in the desert (you get what I mean I think...).
Then again there is this other part of me that says no matter how harsh it sounds, if you allow such kind of punishment, then it counts for everybody and if it happens to hit an innocent person - like me or even you - then it's not that fun anymore.
We had a case in Germany where two guys attacked an old man because he had politely asked them to stop smoking in the metro (which is forbidden anyways). They kicked him and went on when he fell down, but gladly he survived, which sadly isn't the case for the poor gal.
What bothers me so much is the question, why people are becoming more and more violent and I think the general level of care/respect has gone down. People don't care much about each other anymore and when the accumulated hate is too big, everything explodes. Now I hope you do not get me wrong, I'm not a "bring old time back" person, but it is true that things were different back then. Now the question is: Can this help us to change the current society? Personally I say no. When you hear the generation of our grandparents talk, then they often forget that they just came out of a war and had to take care for themselves and their country, so there was no time for idle hanging around.
It was also a time of economic revival and so there was enough work for most people. Nowadays you can ask young kids what they think of their future and often enough you'll hear "I don't know" or "Well I'm gonna be unemployed anyways" and now I ask: Is that a good way for someone to start their life? Sure this depends on the school, but it's often enough those people who commit crimes like this one. It's sad, but daily life offers these people nothing and even if you put them in a "Southafrican jail", this won't change their behaviour.
The German "Der Spiegel" had a very interesting article about young men becoming criminal because there is nothing else to do and personally, I agree with that. Of course we shouldn't fool ourselves, there was always harrassment and young kids also beat other kids in the last century. Sure it wasn't all nice and cute, but the perspective was simply different.
Some might say that there was more authority back then, but that didn't always lead to really good things. You cannot force someone to respect another person if they simply don't want to. Yes there are enough examples where politeness is an absolute must, but those people play that "politeness game" because they want something from it and not because someone else enforces it on them, even if it might look like it. If you're the assistant of some manager and you go to a meeting, you'll be polite to every single asshole there. Not because your boss told you so (even if he did do so), but because it ensures your job to stay polite.
So back to the violent youth. Is it the presence of bad examples? Hell there was Black Sabbath when our parents lived. Is it the movies or the computer games? Well our parents - and grandparents to some extent - could watch violent movies aswell and even the 10th century hero Beowulf had to fight and kill monsters. So what is it that turns young kids into brutal machines?
I might not be old, but when I was a young boy and I was at home, I could talk to my parents. They played games with me, they read stories to me when I was too young to read and they encouraged me, aswell as punished me when I did things wrong.
Now look at todays youth. A lot of parents don't care what their kids do and don't interact enough with them. By encouraging and punishing a kid learns its boundaries and it learns that wrong behaviour has consequences. But even more important is the fact that it has someone who actually cares. Someone that doesn't give a damn about its life and is interested in its wellbeing.
Now let's look at the punishment system. As we all know, the USA have one of the lowest crime rates in the world thanks to hardcore punishing...
Maybe you have seen me write "bring back the pillory", but seriously, I don't think brutal punishment is the way to go. Some wrote that jail is actually holidays, but I don't agree. Jail isn't easy, but the really bad part is, that a lot of sentences aren't carried out due to overfull prisons. Now let me ask you: What is the lesson learned for a young person if the sentence isn't even carried out and they're able to walk away as free people?
What is the point of putting someone in prison, knowing that when they get out, the perspective of being unemployed, poor and hated won't have changed at all?
What is the point of putting a new criminal together with the hardcore guys? To get to know the "right" people to contact?
Our punishment system is absolutely wrong because it relies on just locking up people instead of fighting the root of the problem. Yes of course locking people up isn't bad because after all, they have committed a crime and need to be punished and no, it's not acceptable to give them the best conditions in jail, but hell at least try giving them some kind of perspective so they can change their way of life.
Oh well, I could go on forever, but this world surely isn't fair and even though I'm on the political right side (or how do you say that in English? The political right, like in conservative etc.), I often think that a bit more left-wing thinking could lead to a better life for the poor but sadly history has shown that neither right- nor left-wing politic (in general, excluding some individuals) was interested in anyone but themselves.
On the one hand there is this part that cries out justice and thinks that those guys should be beaten and forced to work naked in the desert (you get what I mean I think...).
Then again there is this other part of me that says no matter how harsh it sounds, if you allow such kind of punishment, then it counts for everybody and if it happens to hit an innocent person - like me or even you - then it's not that fun anymore.
We had a case in Germany where two guys attacked an old man because he had politely asked them to stop smoking in the metro (which is forbidden anyways). They kicked him and went on when he fell down, but gladly he survived, which sadly isn't the case for the poor gal.
What bothers me so much is the question, why people are becoming more and more violent and I think the general level of care/respect has gone down. People don't care much about each other anymore and when the accumulated hate is too big, everything explodes. Now I hope you do not get me wrong, I'm not a "bring old time back" person, but it is true that things were different back then. Now the question is: Can this help us to change the current society? Personally I say no. When you hear the generation of our grandparents talk, then they often forget that they just came out of a war and had to take care for themselves and their country, so there was no time for idle hanging around.
It was also a time of economic revival and so there was enough work for most people. Nowadays you can ask young kids what they think of their future and often enough you'll hear "I don't know" or "Well I'm gonna be unemployed anyways" and now I ask: Is that a good way for someone to start their life? Sure this depends on the school, but it's often enough those people who commit crimes like this one. It's sad, but daily life offers these people nothing and even if you put them in a "Southafrican jail", this won't change their behaviour.
The German "Der Spiegel" had a very interesting article about young men becoming criminal because there is nothing else to do and personally, I agree with that. Of course we shouldn't fool ourselves, there was always harrassment and young kids also beat other kids in the last century. Sure it wasn't all nice and cute, but the perspective was simply different.
Some might say that there was more authority back then, but that didn't always lead to really good things. You cannot force someone to respect another person if they simply don't want to. Yes there are enough examples where politeness is an absolute must, but those people play that "politeness game" because they want something from it and not because someone else enforces it on them, even if it might look like it. If you're the assistant of some manager and you go to a meeting, you'll be polite to every single asshole there. Not because your boss told you so (even if he did do so), but because it ensures your job to stay polite.
So back to the violent youth. Is it the presence of bad examples? Hell there was Black Sabbath when our parents lived. Is it the movies or the computer games? Well our parents - and grandparents to some extent - could watch violent movies aswell and even the 10th century hero Beowulf had to fight and kill monsters. So what is it that turns young kids into brutal machines?
I might not be old, but when I was a young boy and I was at home, I could talk to my parents. They played games with me, they read stories to me when I was too young to read and they encouraged me, aswell as punished me when I did things wrong.
Now look at todays youth. A lot of parents don't care what their kids do and don't interact enough with them. By encouraging and punishing a kid learns its boundaries and it learns that wrong behaviour has consequences. But even more important is the fact that it has someone who actually cares. Someone that doesn't give a damn about its life and is interested in its wellbeing.
Now let's look at the punishment system. As we all know, the USA have one of the lowest crime rates in the world thanks to hardcore punishing...
Maybe you have seen me write "bring back the pillory", but seriously, I don't think brutal punishment is the way to go. Some wrote that jail is actually holidays, but I don't agree. Jail isn't easy, but the really bad part is, that a lot of sentences aren't carried out due to overfull prisons. Now let me ask you: What is the lesson learned for a young person if the sentence isn't even carried out and they're able to walk away as free people?
What is the point of putting someone in prison, knowing that when they get out, the perspective of being unemployed, poor and hated won't have changed at all?
What is the point of putting a new criminal together with the hardcore guys? To get to know the "right" people to contact?
Our punishment system is absolutely wrong because it relies on just locking up people instead of fighting the root of the problem. Yes of course locking people up isn't bad because after all, they have committed a crime and need to be punished and no, it's not acceptable to give them the best conditions in jail, but hell at least try giving them some kind of perspective so they can change their way of life.
Oh well, I could go on forever, but this world surely isn't fair and even though I'm on the political right side (or how do you say that in English? The political right, like in conservative etc.), I often think that a bit more left-wing thinking could lead to a better life for the poor but sadly history has shown that neither right- nor left-wing politic (in general, excluding some individuals) was interested in anyone but themselves.
Iceforge
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2003
- Messages
- 1,861
Tbh, I say we hand them over to the Austrian monster and let him have his fun with him for as long as he wants.... And yes, I let rage fuel my feelings and judgement from time to time, but damn I can't take people who judge others on looks or race...
Ingafgrinn Macabre
Can't get enough of FH
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- Jan 4, 2004
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I've always been extremely anti-deathpenalty, foremost because you cannot set someone free anymore, should later evidence dismiss them from doing the crime, but damn. What's been going on lately is making me itch to be the executioner myself 
Too-sick-for-words fucker austrian man (and wife who claimed to not know, my arse); these 5 backwashed braindeads....
I don't get it anymore.... :/
Too-sick-for-words fucker austrian man (and wife who claimed to not know, my arse); these 5 backwashed braindeads....
I don't get it anymore.... :/
Iceforge
Can't get enough of FH
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- Dec 24, 2003
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missed Liloe's response before writting mine and that calmed me a bit down again, reading that....
one thing through, to you Liloe, is that you say it was different, back in the days, but I view it in a different aspect.
As I see it, much things that once was, is just as bad as what we witnessed displayed by these animals, but because we, as a society, has evolved, we have understood in general atleast, that those actions commited in the past are truely hideious and vile, and we punish those who continue doing this, because they are holding back the development of the society.
We, and I was part of that admittedly as above post shows, are quick to judge these two, but if you say, that the old times was better and such crimes and foul deeds did not exist back then, you are truely kidding yourself into beliving a fairy tale version of the old times.
Now, I go back a bit longer than what you probarly call the good old times, but a bit further back, racism was tolerated, Heck, look at a brilliant mind like Darwin and he was clearly a racist according to modern standards, and belived black people to be of lower worth than himself.
And truely, judging a man by the colour of his skin is more foul than judging someone for the clothes the man or woman choose to wear themselves.
Not to justify judging a man or a women on their clothes, but judging on race is even more vile and foul, and yet, 150 years ago, that was ACCEPTED and common in our society.
We grew to become smarter and then we judged the racists. That is a good thing, they was the remaining part of a old ways that no longer should be tolerated as part of our society.
But what I want to try and say with this, is that the reason we now look at these acts as so foul and so animalistic and vile, and judge those who did them so harshly and throughoutly as we do, it is because of the same reasons as the first people started to judge racists. It is what used to be accepted and common, and while it once was, it should no longer be accepted. While not proud of it, denying that it is our shared past does not change that it was our shared past.
Truth of the matter is, 20 years ago, this would just has been viewed as a murder, but because our society and stardards has improved since then, we can now see how truely vile and fantaticly insane it is, but that we can see it now, but couldnt see it back then, doesn't change the fact that it did happen back then.
I don't know if I made any sense, I hope I did
one thing through, to you Liloe, is that you say it was different, back in the days, but I view it in a different aspect.
As I see it, much things that once was, is just as bad as what we witnessed displayed by these animals, but because we, as a society, has evolved, we have understood in general atleast, that those actions commited in the past are truely hideious and vile, and we punish those who continue doing this, because they are holding back the development of the society.
We, and I was part of that admittedly as above post shows, are quick to judge these two, but if you say, that the old times was better and such crimes and foul deeds did not exist back then, you are truely kidding yourself into beliving a fairy tale version of the old times.
Now, I go back a bit longer than what you probarly call the good old times, but a bit further back, racism was tolerated, Heck, look at a brilliant mind like Darwin and he was clearly a racist according to modern standards, and belived black people to be of lower worth than himself.
And truely, judging a man by the colour of his skin is more foul than judging someone for the clothes the man or woman choose to wear themselves.
Not to justify judging a man or a women on their clothes, but judging on race is even more vile and foul, and yet, 150 years ago, that was ACCEPTED and common in our society.
We grew to become smarter and then we judged the racists. That is a good thing, they was the remaining part of a old ways that no longer should be tolerated as part of our society.
But what I want to try and say with this, is that the reason we now look at these acts as so foul and so animalistic and vile, and judge those who did them so harshly and throughoutly as we do, it is because of the same reasons as the first people started to judge racists. It is what used to be accepted and common, and while it once was, it should no longer be accepted. While not proud of it, denying that it is our shared past does not change that it was our shared past.
Truth of the matter is, 20 years ago, this would just has been viewed as a murder, but because our society and stardards has improved since then, we can now see how truely vile and fantaticly insane it is, but that we can see it now, but couldnt see it back then, doesn't change the fact that it did happen back then.
I don't know if I made any sense, I hope I did
liloe
It's my birthday today!
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- Jan 25, 2004
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Ah you must've misunderstood me then =) I didn't say the old times were all good and shiny. That "golden past" is indeed, as you describe it, a fairytale. =)
Although I think that overall, violence wasn't that omnipresent a few decades back. Sure you had bullying at schools and people getting killed in the streets, but it happened less.
OK I admit that I lack the numbers here, but at least that's how it feels for me =)
Chronictank
FH is my second home
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- Jan 21, 2004
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Hell no, its government sponsored
Free on the bbc with bet money to the family \o>
Although you have seen 'The Running Man'
Iceforge
Can't get enough of FH
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Ironicly "The Running Man" is a thriller and horror story in book format, but only works in the movie format as an action movie.
And ofc it written by no other than the horror KING himself
Chronictank
FH is my second home
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Ironicly "The Running Man" is a thriller and horror story in book format, but only works in the movie format as an action movie.
And ofc it written by no other than the horror KING himself
The book was presented nothing like the movie whichis why i didnt mention it
Iceforge
Can't get enough of FH
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The book was presented nothing like the movie whichis why i didnt mention it
I know
Just tried to make the point more clear, that a society which did such actions would truely be worthy of a horror book, which it has already been
Golena
Fledgling Freddie
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- Feb 11, 2004
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The problem is that the punishment you dish out isn't really important. By that point the innocent person is dead and nothing you do to the idiot is going to change that.
What you want to do is make the concept of the punishment so terrible that when the youths start walking over to kill an innocent member of society, they don't do it for fear of what's going to happen to them.
Prison just simply doesn't do that at the moment. Yeah sure, prison might be hard and not an all expenses holiday, but it's also not so much worse than real life that it scares people it seems.
Now if you simply rounded up all the youths in the gang, lined them up against a wall and shot them, maybe just maybe the next lot would think twice. I imagine that knowing you wern't only killing the freak walking down the road, but also your self and all your mates might trigger a different reaction that a cell and decent meals 3 times a day just doesn't. It would certainly give your mates a good reason to stop you instead of egging you on like it was a game.
The problem is it's not just one incident. This story is becoming a daily occurance, so obviously something we are doing isn't strong enough.
What you want to do is make the concept of the punishment so terrible that when the youths start walking over to kill an innocent member of society, they don't do it for fear of what's going to happen to them.
Prison just simply doesn't do that at the moment. Yeah sure, prison might be hard and not an all expenses holiday, but it's also not so much worse than real life that it scares people it seems.
Now if you simply rounded up all the youths in the gang, lined them up against a wall and shot them, maybe just maybe the next lot would think twice. I imagine that knowing you wern't only killing the freak walking down the road, but also your self and all your mates might trigger a different reaction that a cell and decent meals 3 times a day just doesn't. It would certainly give your mates a good reason to stop you instead of egging you on like it was a game.
The problem is it's not just one incident. This story is becoming a daily occurance, so obviously something we are doing isn't strong enough.
liloe
It's my birthday today!
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- Jan 25, 2004
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- 4,166
And what if you stood there cause of false accusations? Would it still be a good solution to make a decision none can ever take back?
I hope you have read my post, but I will mention it again. Look at the US with the death penalty. Is the crime-rate lower there? Then tell me again, that harsh punishing is the way to eliminate criminality.
old.Tohtori
FH is my second home
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Interesting to see all the "poor guy and girl" and "kill those chavs!" comments, when i'm quite sure there's been atleast one or two of these people bashing down goths and how they should just get the fook out.
But, as it stands, yes, lock 'em up and leave 'em be. Even if minor, it's a hatecrime.
The thing about goths is they won't retaliate.
But, as it stands, yes, lock 'em up and leave 'em be. Even if minor, it's a hatecrime.
The thing about goths is they won't retaliate.