More Archer Woe ?

[krait]

I hope this is just a bug and not another hidden archer nerf (as it seems to be) but this was a quote from the Scout TL in a long thread about lower RvR crit shot damage.

Meep:

Regardless of how you think the system should work, the actual functionality of critical shot is outlined in my Archery Guide under the critical shot heading.

A level 50 scout should be doing double damage with a critical shot to any other character in the game (as no one can be above level 50).

Wyrd:

I have run a short test, and it appears that a level 50 scout is indeed hitting for 1.5x normal damage with critical shots against other level 50 players. The test was not large enough to totally rule out the possibility of the random number generator just giving me crappy base damages for those shots though.

I've asked a dev (who can see the before and after numbers) to check out the situation and see what's up. I'm not sure whether I'll include it in my report; it depends on the response I get from my quiet request.
-----signature-----

Oakleif, Scout TL
Archery Guide - http://rothwellhome.org/guides/archery.htm
Stealth Guide - http://rothwellhome.org/guides/stealth.htm
Scout Guide (being revised) - http://rothwellhome.org/guides/scout.htm
General Guides - http://rothwellhome.org/

Th full thread can be found
Here

 

[old.Arnor]

Yeah, whine about the scouts, like they need it.

Aussie critshotted me for 918dmg, oh yeah critshot needs a boost in efficiency.


Do us all a favour and delete your scout if your unhappy

 

[censi]

dont get me started on archers again.....

 

[DocWolfe]

rofl your whining about someone who hit you for 918? wizzies can bolt for 2000+ with crits. Archers cant crit with crit shot

 

[Dook_Pug]

LOL, this whole 'Archers are gimped' shit is really starting to grate.

I get hit for 800+ damage (through BT might I add) atleast once a day be it Ranger or Scout. You think you're gimped? Heh.

 

[Dook_Pug]

Originally posted by old.Docwolfe
rofl your whining about someone who hit you for 918? wizzies can bolt for 2000+ with crits. Archers cant crit with crit shot

LOL. On another Caster, if SEVERELY lucky with Crits, and it would NEVER happen verses an even con Caster in epic...

 

[DocWolfe]

I've been one shot by orange con casters lots of times, never been one shot by an archer. nuff said.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by old.Docwolfe
rofl your whining about someone who hit you for 918? wizzies can bolt for 2000+ with crits. Archers cant crit with crit shot

Casters don't get stealth and studded armour

This is a bit tiresome, I know archers have been nerfed, maybe too much. But any class that can hit for 1000+ dmg (/me points to Odysseus's sig) and can stealth straight afterwards is surely due for a swift crack of the nerf bat. Uber ranged dmg+invisibility = NERF!

 

[DocWolfe]

wow stealth is awesome, yeh really good against see hidden. oh yea and studded armour to go with my awesome melee skills! Studded armour and stealth aint much compared to bt, cc, snare stun etc. etc.

Unless youve played a scout or similar dont comment on how valuable stealth has become since see hidden.

 

[old.Kladen]

um i dont have see hidden and more than 7/8 of the people dont have see hidden.

also i have a idea if stealth is so shite why dont you spec more into your melee?

and if a scout could shoot as good as a bolter who would want to be a wizard(edit:fire wizard)?

 

[Tafaya Anathas]

Hehe, if you can kill someone in RvR, the victim starts whining for nerf. Stupid ones.

 

[-yoda-]

Originally posted by Dook_Pug
LOL, this whole 'Archers are gimped' shit is really starting to grate.

I get hit for 800+ damage (through BT might I add) atleast once a day be it Ranger or Scout. You think you're gimped? Heh.

Impossible afaik to shoot an arrow THROUGH BT wether it be a crit or normal arrow . most likely thing that happened to you is one of two things
1) you didnt have bt up and he critted you
2) you got shot by TWO snipers . 1 st arrow brought down bt 2nd arrow straight into you . hence it didnt go through bt . LOTS of sniper duo's do the dble shot at same time combo . to gt passed your bt .



as for somebody moaning about being hit for 9xx dmge by aussie please remember he is always buffed make a lot of differnece in dmge if u r buffed or unbuffed.


my 2 cents on bow classes ere

1 all casters get a self or pulsing bt . hence 99% of the time archers crit shot is useless because it hits bt . where as if i get hit by a hib casters bolts with my pbt up it always goe's THROUGH bt . kinda fair huh ? same with assasins pa'backstab that penatrates bt . crit shots or normal shots dont .

see hidden . im a bit sceptic of this in some ways its not a good thing and some its good . see hidden does enable an assasin to se you a LOT easier . to the point where u die everytime u get as far as a mile gate . and we all know the amount of assasin classes in each ream that are in emain atm "tons of em" . on the other hand i think see hidden is a good thing because it adds to the tension of playing your character knowing an assasin might be lurking nearby hunting you . and this imo makes for more exciting rvr . if i had a scout "i do want one" i wouldnt mind one much aboiut see hidden . after all i can buy true sight ra to find them 1st although it aint 100% passive .

as for those who say hardly any assasins have see hidden . LMFAO every assasin and his dog has see hidden . thats the 1st ra' they buy when they can afford it . u can buy see hidden when u are in bg3 "caledonia" the cost of it is so low . so please dont try bs everybody by saying not many have it .

to those who whine about stealth/range attack . cple of things u can do to combat this .. BT/Engage/guard

all of the above disables a archers crit shot or normal shot . ok maybe guard aint to reliable . but if u not got bt or engage u prolly another stealther or a tak class with enough hp to get to the scout befre you drop . if a caster gets hit by an archer his 1st arrow will drop your bt . this gives u 2-3 seconds to /face /qc and cast a spell . cos a draw time is 3 second average "2 seconds is hard cap and cant go faster than that " afaik NO archer in ALL realms has a 2 second draw time . "especially not scouts" just watch for ya bt dropping and u ok if u fast enough .

same with engage if u have have sheild spec use engage to totaly disable a scouts arrow attack whilst u advance to him . archer will either run "which is most common case :" or stay an hope one or two get through .then u whack him down . if u dont have engage but CAN train in it thats your fault not the snipers.


also bear in mind hib/mid/alb pets they are all bugged and will chase ANY stealther for miles and will see straight through his stealth . if he runs and u close enough to send pet it 99% of the time = dead sniper . he wont stop n melee thepet unless he is certain he is safe from following group , and even then he will struggle due to bad melee skills and having no end after just a few seconds earlier sprinting to escape "unless u a ranger with speed buff thing."


if you get killed by a sniper when u alone thats your own fault for not keeping up with your grp or thinking you can solo in the 1st place . solo in emain is a stealthers game "mainly assasins"

 

[krait]

Hmmm.........seems some people missed the point of the post entirely and cannot even read a simple quote for what it is.

Nowhere did it say that archers are gimped.........it is a quote from the scout team leader (you know,the guy who actually collects any info/feedback about scouts and then speaks to Mythic about it) about apparent reduced crit shot damage,from 2x normal damage to 1.5x,after patch 1.53.

 

[old.Normengast]

<<
Impossible afaik to shoot an arrow THROUGH BT wether it be a crit or normal arrow . >>

Play a caster and be surprised...

<< my 2 cents on bow classes ere

1 all casters get a self or pulsing bt . hence 99% of the time archers crit shot is useless because it hits bt . where as if i get hit by a hib casters bolts with my pbt up it always goe's THROUGH bt . kinda fair huh ? same with assasins pa'backstab that penatrates bt . crit shots or normal shots dont .>>

afaik backstab is meant to break the pbt and go in.


Ociri Havocweaver
45 Runemaster
Fedaykin/prydwen

 

[old.LandShark]

stealth archers are gimped. All archers currently in this version are stealth/sniper-ish specced.
They can no longer do what they used to be able to; thus, they HAVE been nerfed, whether you think so or not.

 

[old.Kladen]

i dont know why scouts whine? they can still kill things.

im sure a scout can kill more things than me and other classes

 

[Tafaya Anathas]

Originally posted by old.Kladen
i dont know why scouts whine? they can still kill things.

im sure a scout can kill more things than me and other classes

You are (and the ather 'nerf archers!') just jelaous.

 

[censi]

yodas post is pretty good.

i think see hidden is a good thing because it adds to the tension of playing your character knowing an assasin might be lurking nearby hunting you . and this imo makes for more exciting rvr . .

being nailed by assasins post 1.52 is too frequent an event to add any tension to my gameplay.... I usually just /sigh--> /release---> /quit (cuz I cant be assed to walk back again to suffer the same fate)

Problem with "see hidden" is this.....

The range on it is massive, even if the archer has high stealth...
The range on "detect hidden" was enough to give assasins the ability to see us b4 we see them... which meant they would generally attack first and have a big upper hand... but see hidden spots you from so far away its a joke....

The whole point to stealth is to give you the ability to remain hidden untill you want to attack. This isnt a luxoury feature, its a requiste of any stealth class. They have taken this ability away from archers and minstrals.

Combine this with the 1000's of infs in emain and it just gets a bit silly....

So many people just see this as archers whining as they are no longer uber... this is not really the case... its more a case of they have forced rangers out of the solo community. And generally unbalanced the class by giving assasins the ability to totally dominate you... Hence many archers are whining and many other have just quit.

I rolled a ranger to solo, but now I have to group.... and I really find grouping boring.....

I doubt mythic really care, but just for the record this "see hidden" thing has basically made me loose interest in the game....


P.S I do lmao though when some lvl 50 assasins attack me and I tear them a new asshole (with IP), but I can only fend off the weak ones that dont have IP themselves or just generally sux..

P.P.S when you roll your PvP character make sure its not gonna get nerfed in later patches...

 

[old.chesnor]

Archers needed nerfing, that can't be denied (although people in this thread will no doubt argue with me). Bottom line was the invisibility skill (it's not stealth btw) and massive damage at range was too much. You could kill with total impunity. Mythics sad answer was to give assassins the ability to hunt you, thus replacing one uber class at the top of the daoc RvR foodchain with another. gj...not.

If Alb/Pryd is anything to go by, expect an Infil zerg coming your way soon. Oh, and I actually saw a lowb scout the other day...I nearly fell off my chair, "did you go see the wrong trainer or something mate ?", he just laughed and vanished before my very eyes.

 

[censi]

Archers didnt need nerfing...(imo).

They just needed to give certain classes (basically mages) a bit more of a chance against them. Buts its always better to enchance a class with a defense mechanism rather than weaken the offending class..
Self BT is a more than adequte countermeassure. Most other classes didnt find archers 2 much of a problem....

see hidden is the biggest class nerf of all time in DAOC....

U gotta take into account that 99% of all non stealth classes group.....

Playing a stealth class has always been a matter of the most patient preditor is the best preditor. Waiting for a single target can literaly take hours in ~Daoc..... Now even perhaps after surviving long enough to find a single target and actually having him in range long enough to fire, you have the distinct possibility that after all that waiting he will turn around and own you.......

 

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Archers needed nerfing, that can't be denied

True enough, sort of...

they DID need nerfind back in 1.32, when we got 1.36 they were nerfed by casters having a self castable bladeturn, which, in my oppinion was actually enough, assassins already had detect hidden which allowed them to do their job, archer stealth was still viable but not all powerfull due to the caster bt which stopped the situation of caster = one shot kill from stealth and free rp's.

at that point i thought they were rather well balenced, they could kill things well enough, but not without risk like before, they could still solo (one of the main selling points of the class, and yes this is a group game but damned if i shouldnt be able to solo just because someone doesnt like being killed 1v1) and they were still fun, then for absolutely no bloody reason other than vn board cry babies they bring out see hidden.

now at first i wasnt bothered about this, until i found out it was passive, on 100% of the f*cking time! and that coupled with the number of assassins meant that high lvl archers had an entire spec line (which WAS viable! and therefore went a large way to saying what that class was, and was therefore a large reason for why those people chose the damn class in the first place) which was from that point on, basically worthless, the class stopped being a stealther, now that wouldnt have been a problem if you didnt roll it for a stealth class, but it WAS one, so many people, when picking a stealth class thought "ooo that looks like an interesting one" and then had their entire reason for doing so, taken away from them, now say what you like but that is BULLSHIT!

now bt was enough, at lvl 17 i was taking my eldritch to emain and surviving (average server top lvl's were mid 40's at the time, some lvl 50's), because certain lvl 50 archers (shade for example) never, and i mean NEVER got through bt, it's not possible to do it with arrows, now that's ok, one shot and all, nothing too powerfull, and it stopped them killing me without my having any chance to do anything (of course assassins still have this ability, but they're not ranged i guess), but when pbt is taken into the equasion... the archer may as well get a system message saying "this target is immune to arrows" and it nullifies almost everything their character can do. simple fact is that archers have been nerfed to shit, there was absolutely no need for seehidden, because the patched in caster bt was enough to balence things.

now, with see hidden on top it's just made them practically an unviable class so far as i'm concerned, perhaps if there were as few assassins as there were back in 1.36 ok, but there isnt, there are swarms of them, and even more at lower levels who are in training because of what mythic has made the class, once those arrive then archers will be nothing but either group only chars or solo rp cows, since they were created as a good solo class this is just a piss take.

 

[censi]

spot on... that just about sums it up...

 

[Brevis]

Well first I have a small correction to Yoda I have a 2 sec draw time, but that is with a fast bow, which I use against any caster class to be able to hit between BT, and as far as I know, the hardcap for drawtime is 1½ second...
And second, I started my char long ago in a galaxy far far...erh, well I was visiting a friend during a keep raid, and i saw how the archers where able to hold back alot of people and knowing they also had stealth made it my first choice. I have tons of fun playing my char, even with see hidden. I have bought True sight now, not that it does any difference (damn that 30 minutes timer), I play in grp, as I have always done, sometimes I go solo.
One of the things I would have thought would have been fun for the Hunter is a higher evade, since we only get evade1.

 

[censi]

yep, archers are pretty superb in keep raids and wall defense it has to be said...

 

[old.Arnor]

rofl your whining about someone who hit you for 918? wizzies can bolt for 2000+ with crits. Archers cant crit with crit shot

But casters wear cloth and are VISIBLE.

Never forget that the critshot is a free shit in many ways.

And to the one who said that u cant oneshot casters in epic: Wrong.

Been playing a friends rm a bit the last days and so far ive one-bolted 3 casters in epicarmour, and that was without crit.
951 capped dmg, gotta love it ^^

 

[Arlone]

Originally posted by old.Arnor

Never forget that the critshot is a free shit in many ways.

oHH!! A free shit!

had to

 

[erl]

Originally posted by Brevis
Well first I have a small correction to Yoda I have a 2 sec draw time, but that is with a fast bow, which I use against any caster class to be able to hit between BT, and as far as I know, the hardcap for drawtime is 1½ second...

As numbers are printed now that 2 sec drawtime of yours probably is about 2.9 secs. When using a 4.0 speed bow My drawtime prints as 2 secs on regular shot and 3 secs on critshot, so I guess regulars fire for about 2.8 or 2.9. And that is with a kobold with idiotic 10 points spent into qui at creation and quite a bunch of +qui items.

Edit: Oh, to stay on topic for a bit, I hope its a bug and not something that is here to stay. It would be so bad if we got worse without mythic admitting it or telling why.

 

[old.Kladen]

archers are good enough as it is. just need to nerf them pesky assaines, they can kill anything nowadays.

 

[Novo]

Bah!

For the people who call for the nerfing of Archers I recommend they read this informative site.
http://gt7.net/daoc/death_of_a_scout.html

If this had happened to the caster community, there would be uproar. Instead us Archers are still here. We are adapting and learning new ways and skills of killing under difficult circumstances. We have had our role changed constantly, yet we accept them and come back for more. Most archers who play do NOT have it easy, yes we can kill casters. One thing you MUST get used to is within the scheme of things for mythic, Archers prey on Casters! We are meant to own your asses whether you like it or not.

If you’re a caster and being owed by an Archer at this time then your not very good. You’ve failed to use the complete set of anti-archer tools (BT, PBT, Engage, 2 sec Quick Cast, Nearsight etc… etc…) you’ve been given and you’ve been wondering around solo.

Get used to it, move on and let us Archers die in droves to the 100’s of assassins that I meet each day. I don’t what to be umber. Just fun and challenging! And I’m real sorry it’s a Challenge killing anything at the moment.

 

[krait]

Originally posted by erl


Edit: Oh, to stay on topic for a bit, I hope its a bug and not something that is here to stay. It would be so bad if we got worse without mythic admitting it or telling why.

Only one mention of the actual topic from over 25 posts. <sighs>