Moral dilemma for the day!

[gohan]

Take a woman in a relationship from a very religious middle eastern background.. her husband "takes" her even when she doesnt want to. She talks to her father about it who tells her that this is her life and she should just get on with it as leaving would bring dishonour to the family.... to get through her miserable existence she has an affair... the girl eventually leaves and her family never talk to her again ... not because she had the affair but because she left...

Some do it because they HAVE to, they just want to experience love, some happiness, some compassion or affection... and in my opinioin it is completely justifible... this is just one of many reasons I have seen for affairs happening. Yes some are not necessary and people should just leave but purleaseeee do not go around calling individuals whores / slags etc etc when quite clearly you have absolutely NO idea of some things that go on in the world.

if your brave enought to have an affair when u have an abusive husband then your brave enought to just leave the ****.... next excuse please?

 

[Yoni]

Neither are ok but often the emotional one will happen as a matter of self defence to prevent the occurance of the other or one is a remedy for another.

I just feel sometimes this subject is considered to be black and white and it never ever is which is why I will argue till I am blue in the face to encourage people to think outside of their happy perfect worlds....

I have had a lot of contact with friends / collegues who have been in both situations I will never ever judge them, I will talk give gentle opinion but hell who am I to judge their situation, just as who are any of you to judge? No one ever knows nor understands the full facts in matters like this only the two individuals involved.

Sitting in judgement calling people slags, bitches, dogs etc etc etc just makes me want to debate further so please stop.. it is Christmas time and I have been drinking traditional Christmas beer and now I am going to go and find the frozen heart of some shit who got eaten by a bear or something

 

[nath]

Sitting in judgement calling people slags, bitches, dogs etc etc etc just makes me want to debate further so please stop.. it is Christmas time and I have been drinking traditional Christmas beer and now I am going to go and find the frozen heart of some shit who got eaten by a bear or something

Again, I've said no such thing but just as I'll quite happily dismiss a wife-beater as being a fuckwit, the same thought process is applied to people who cheat and think it's acceptable, albeit to a lesser extent.

 

[Chilly]

its the fact that you almost sound like you encourage it tho yoni. thats what pisses me off. I completely agree that there are rare occurences where its probably not as bad as it could be but the vast majority of cases (ie the 10+ I've seen/heard of/been around when) are simply people being wankers.

I've got two weeks off, so I've got plenty of time to argue!

 

[Cadelin]

Wow quite some response.

The story is true (although I understand that repeatedly saying its true doesn't actually prove that it is) and the doctor involved is a female.

I think we all agree that you can't tell the man about his wife affair but doing (absolutely) nothing is not an option. (are those people who say do nothing saying they would do the vasectomy?) If you allow the man to have the operation even though you know both the reasons for him to do it are wrong how can that be right?

If it was me, I would do my best to delay the operation in the hope that he finds out and is able to make a proper judgement but I would have to be very careful not to give away anything.

 

[nath]

As I understand vasectomies are reversible (assuming my Scrubs based medical knowledge is accurate). Plus I absolutely think the doctor should do nothing, motives for the procedure are nothing to do with her. If she's asked to do/organise a vasectomy then that should be all there is to it.

 

[Cadelin]

As I understand vasectomies are reversible (assuming my Scrubs based medical knowledge is accurate). Plus I absolutely think the doctor should do nothing, motives for the procedure are nothing to do with her. If she's asked to do/organise a vasectomy then that should be all there is to it.

The success rate is not 100% for reserving it but it is pretty good.

The motives for any treatment are to do with the doctor. If the motive for having treatment done is wrong the doctor should tell the patient.

 

[nath]

It's all far too messy to get involved with that line of thinking though. He's asked the doctor for a vasectomy to prevent having more children with this woman. It's up to him to decide whether he wants to factor in the possibility that his relationship might not last or that he'll change his mind later for whatever reason. All the doctor should do (in my opinion, natch) is explain the risks, how likely it is to be able to reverse it and highlight the fact that he may change his mind. All stuff that generally should be said regardless of whether she knows about an affair or not.

 

[Cadelin]

But its already messy. How do you explain the risks involved without bias when you know that there is one risk factor that is much more important than the others?

 

[nath]

Well it's not easy sure, but I guess she just has to manage to do it without spilling the beans.

 

[chipper]

Take a woman in a relationship from a very religious middle eastern background.. her husband "takes" her even when she doesnt want to. She talks to her father about it who tells her that this is her life and she should just get on with it as leaving would bring dishonour to the family.... to get through her miserable existence she has an affair... the girl eventually leaves and her family never talk to her again ... not because she had the affair but because she left...

Some do it because they HAVE to, they just want to experience love, some happiness, some compassion or affection... and in my opinioin it is completely justifible... this is just one of many reasons I have seen for affairs happening. Yes some are not necessary and people should just leave but purleaseeee do not go around calling individuals whores / slags etc etc when quite clearly you have absolutely NO idea of some things that go on in the world.

i stopped reading after yoni's post cos i dont think any other answer could be more clear cut.

a thought springs to mind "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" or something like that

 

[old.user4556]

its the fact that you almost sound like you encourage it tho yoni. thats what pisses me off

... and that is exactly what gets right up my nose about it too Yoni, sorry.

 

[chipper]

think your been a bit harsh on yoni there, she doesnt sound like shes defending it to me, sounds pretty much like shes staying neutral on the whole thing, and shes right. if you dont understand whats going on, what right do you have to slate such people? you dont know there circumstances?

yes there are people out there who cheat just for the sake of a fuck and yes these are not nice people. the other person doesnt deserve the grief thats heading there way

on the other hand its easy to say leave him or her, thats not so easy if youve been with someone for years. and i could go on and on and on cause there will be any number of reasons why someone may cheat on there other half i dont condone it but i DO understand it

its easy to sit in judgment of a situation you've never been in, and until you have your really not in a position to name call, the world isnt black and white so come down off your high horses.

 

[gohan]

the world isnt black and white so come down off your high horses.

no its comfy up here!!!!!!! i can see my house

 

[chipper]

bet its windy tho want a cup of hot chocolate?

 

[Yoni]

I am not actively encouraging anything I am asking for some thought before you condem something that you know nothing about. I for one will not. If you want to stand in judgement then obviously this is your right.

For valentines day, we simply got one another a card. Meanwhile, I was sending presents to another girl in my office along with flirty emails. I was like a monkey, i didn't want to let go of one branch until i had a firm hold on another.

I know you had not physically cheated on your ex-girlfriend at the time G, however in the mind you were gone... she left you eventually (ie after she had worked things out in her own head) probably because of the tension she could feel who knows.. Karma has strange ways of restoring order to the world

You know the day may come when some here who judge find themselves in a situation where like Big G you think about cheating on a partner or actually go through with it because you can't leave for one reason or another (and purlease dont come with the " I will never do this" because you just don't know).. personally I wish for all that all live in peace and happiness and other such fluffyness.. sadly life is not that kind.

Just try to follow the advice below and maybe if you fuck up someone out there will offer a friendly hand..

Give me some credit for being open and honest , none of us are perfect. He who is without sin cast the first stone etc .

Ok I think I have finished taking this thread off topic.

My point still stands with regards to the question concerned.. there is no moral dilemma, yes it is a harsh situation. As it has already been said the chap may want to create a new family should be be lucky enough to fall in love again etc.

Although the Dr can not tell him of his wifes actions, maybe he could send him away for a cool off period, just to ensure he is making the right choice. This would open the conversation up for the chap and his wife.

"Dr said he would do the operation however because we are still x age he would like us to think about it for a while and discuss it because of y and z reasons" If lucky the woman concerned could say.. "ill get sterilized myself" if she decides not to have any more children.. or she can consider other methods.

 

[SawTooTH]

Its difficult to understand why the woman is having an affair yet possibly encouraging her husband to have a vasectomy.

I had a vasectomy in my thirties for pretty much the same reasons as posted, my wife had been on the pill assuming responsibility for contraception for quite a few years and I felt long term that was not a good thing. More importantly we had two boys and I felt that I didnt want any more children. There are financial implications with raising children whether I was with my wife or not.

You cant second guess the husbands reasons and pin all the guilt on the wife.

I agree that Doctors have to keep confidentiality but this is a difficult dilemma.

The Doctor can of course discuss this with the wife but again if the Doctor does not have all the facts then getting involved in the patients relationship is crossing a line in my opinion.


Oh and vasectomies are certainly reversible without too much harm to sperm production if carried out within 2 years of the operation.

 

[MYstIC G]

I am not actively encouraging anything I am asking for some thought before you condem something that you know nothing about. I for one will not. If you want to stand in judgement then obviously this is your right.

You all know nothing but all of you are judgemental...



*misses the old rolleyes smiley*

 

[soze]

It depends on your Morals for me i would find a way to tell the husband maybe send a bill fo the contrceptives to him and blame it on a clerical error.

Cheating should never be done people who cheat and say we had to stay together for the kids don't often realise how much they are screwing the kids up. Parents divorcing is not easy but nor is growing up thinking a heathy relationship it your arents fighting all the time and Dad sleeping on the couch.

 

[Ch3tan]

ooookay then.

Easy way out tbh, delay the op for the hubby, the wife will get an allergic reaction to her pills, he will notice. Job done, no oath broken.

 

[DaGaffer]

Um, am I missing something here? The guy's in his late thirties, he's already got children, is it really that much of a big deal if he has a vasectomy and then his wife leaves? It could happen anyway, so all we're talking about here is timing. The only moral dilemma I could see is if the guy had never had kids.

Don't get me wrong, the wife is a stone cold bitch and no mistake, but that's not the doctor's problem.

 

[Cadelin]

Easy way out tbh, delay the op for the hubby, the wife will get an allergic reaction to her pills, he will notice. Job done, no oath broken.

The wife isn't allergic to anything, she is just using it as an excuse to not have sex.

 

[old.user4556]

Yoni, I'd appreciate it if you judged me on the whole story and not by dissecting a two year old post: what happened to me is completely different to what's going on here.

You're correct, I wasn't physically cheating.

I wasn't married, I wasn't fucking someone else, I wasn't living a self indulgent double life; I didn't actually have any regular physical contact with who I was flirting with during that short time (she worked in another office); and it was exactly that, just flirting which is a gaping chasm of a difference.

I was unable to see that my relationship was already turning stale (until it was truly over), and I got cocky and arrogant that I was getting away with flirting with another woman which detached me from the relationship.

She (the flirter) suggested going to her house at one time, and I didn't do it. This may sound gay, but I wasn't flirting for the prospect of sex, but because my self esteem was so low which was inflicted by my self-obsessed, emotionally abusive girlfriend. Being invited over was too far for me, absolutely over the line, I never pursued it, I held my integrity and respect for my existing (albeit ailing) girlfriend/relationship and it was at that point I started to think that ending it was going to be the right thing for both of us and I set about doing the honourable thing by seriously constructing how I'd go about doing it.

However, she beat me to it, but bizzarely I painted a rose tinted perfect picture of my relationship when it ended and (as I said) I never saw what it was or what was going on until the dust settled. It was my immature knee jerk reaction to losing my one and only long term girlfriend, but there's no shame in that, I'm only human and didn't know what a mature and "proper" relationship was.

I knew the writing was on the wall for my relationship, but I didn't kiss, let alone fuck someone else on the side as a way out. I find it deplorable that someone would fuck their way out of a relationship.

PS: I don't want to fall out about this Yoni , it's nearly xmas eve!

 

[Yoni]

I am not judging you.. you did what you needed to do at that time to get through. I was merely pointing out that occassionally people do things they may not necessarily think they would do. I dont remember condoning fucking oneself out of a relationship just that I personally like to think about the issues surrounding human behavoir and so do not judge situations myself as I will never have all the details.

The world isn't black and white if it was life would not be such a great challenge.

 

[TdC]

bizzarely I painted a rose tinted perfect picture of my relationship when it ended and (as I said) I never saw what it was or what was going on until the dust settled. It was my immature knee jerk reaction to losing my one and only long term girlfriend, but there's no shame in that, I'm only human and didn't know what a mature and "proper" relationship was.

you and me both mate. glad we both seem to be back on our metaphorical feet though.


also, I'm pleased you two are talking without the forums looking like a Dead Space level. People don't always see where another is coming from, and without touching on rights or wrongs here I'd say communication is always a good thing, even if it is agreeing to disagree.
</daddy mode>

 

[`mongoose]

Firstly - on the topic of wife beating.

My older sister used to be married to a policeman who brought his work home with him if you catch my drift.

I can assure you that in my experience of abused spouses, generally it starts with emotional and psychological abuse. By the time the fists come out the victim is so worn down they think they deserve what they're getting. It's prosecuting abusive spouses is so hard and it's the only reason that piece of scum is still at work, protected by the police lawyers. There are very few times when I wish I was good at fighting and all that macho shit, whenever I think of my sister are those times.

No spousal abuse is acceptable imo. You can't however simplify physical abuse as purely physical. There is a massive amount of emotional and psychological damage that must be repaired for the individual to go out and find happiness again.

on Topic: It's got fuck all to do with the hypocratic oath and all to do with data protection *yawn* and patient / doctor confidentiality hasn't it? There's nothing in the oath that says "you can't tell a spouse what treatment the other spouse is getting".

There are a number of common sense things that she can do to help the person in question however.

1.) Advise (strongly) that the patient has some semen frozen (just in case..)
2.) Offer to get the wife in and go through other methods of contraception
3.) "Accidentally" congratulate the patient on his wife finding a pill that suits (that would possibly get a slap on the wrist but probably wouldn't go any further )

there's lots of simple and effective ways of giving out the information without saying "watch out sunshine - she's having it off with the milkman" that would bear no relevence whatsoever on him discovering why his wife is lying to him.

Alternatively she can get her head down and do exactly what the patient requests. There's no guarrantee that him knowing that his wife is having one off with someone else will bear any relation to his decision anyway.

p.s. I'm with Yoni on the whole "bitch" thing. I've got a few colleagues who seem incapable of having a mature relationship wihtout getting drunk and sticking their willy somewhere wet. I don't approve of it but I try not to judge them. I'm not them, I'm not living their life and I'm grateful of that 99 % of the time.

M

 

[old.user4556]

I've got a few colleagues who seem incapable of having a mature relationship wihtout getting drunk and sticking their willy somewhere wet.

I hope it's not wet with nice smelling anusol. That'll sting.

 

[chipper]

I hope it's not wet with nice smelling anusol. That'll sting.

voice of experience?

 

[old.user4556]

A deduction based on Trem's presumably accurate account of it's use .

 

[chipper]

and thats where im going to stop thinking about anusol >.<