MMO's are for Newbies - By Richard Bartle

[Shafu]

Read this article if you're bored... hell, you dont even have to be bored It's a very good read. It's about MMOs in general (including DAoC) and I think he has some really good points. I especially liked the part about instancing.

MMO's are for Newbies - By Richard Bartle

 

[Thadius]

Really good points put there and most are true

If oldbies leave, newbies are needed to replace them. The newbies must arrive at the same rate (or better) that the oldbies leave; otherwise, the population of the virtual world will decline until eventually no-one will be left to play it.

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies

Current DAOC anyone?

 

[Mabs]

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies

or by their ability to not lose Oldbies , works both ways

 

[gohan]

or by their ability to not lose Oldbies , works both ways

not possible, people will always leave even if its just cos they died irl or lost thier house even if its not by choice people will leave so they need new players, fact is daoc is 1 of if not THE best mmo about but its been so badly advitised an only people play it through word of mouth...... if daoc had half the advertising WoW did it wud have soooo amny more players as its an infinatly better game

 

[Flimgoblin]

There's more than just advertising needed for daoc to get a boost in subs:

Why? even though it's a better game overall WoW has by far the best "newbie-hooking" experience in any MMO out there at the moment. It's polished, it's friendly, it draws you in on a reasonably easy to follow path.

DAoC has made some changes to make it more newbie friendly but it's fighting against a 5 year old UI still tied to a text-based game. Plus it's a 5 year old game which makes people think "Ooold" rather than "ooh fancy game", as well as the problem of a large part of the player base being in RvR and separated from the newbies.

That said, a bit more advertising wouldn't go amiss and I think daoc could attract a lot more players than it does at the moment.

 

[eble]

Imagine for one moment your were new to DAOC would you stay the course?

I personally think I would download the game for the 14 day trial, log on have a look round see, no one to grp with, maybe look for some forum sites to see whats up, stumble upon Freddyshouse and read all the abuse and crap and the like on these forums.

Any wonder why no one is interested in this game, the community we have left is by far the worst aspect of this game, just read the crap on this forum for a start.

I'm sorry to say the game I thought was the best thing ever once has declined to the point we have people waiting in a line to duel people coming on boats to Hib/Alb/Mid,

The end game was always supposed to be realm vs realm large scale battles not Infil vs SB with a few watching.

Eble

 

[snushanen]

Imagine for one moment your were new to DAOC would you stay the course?

I personally think I would download the game for the 14 day trial, log on have a look round see, no one to grp with, maybe look for some forum sites to see whats up, stumble upon Freddyshouse and read all the abuse and crap and the like on these forums.

Any wonder why no one is interested in this game, the community we have left is by far the worst aspect of this game, just read the crap on this forum for a start.

I'm sorry to say the game I thought was the best thing ever once has declined to the point we have people waiting in a line to duel people coming on boats to Hib/Alb/Mid,

The end game was always supposed to be realm vs realm large scale battles not Infil vs SB with a few watching.

Eble

couldnt agree more. If i was gonna try daoc today for the first time , its very small chanses i would stay because of the reasons u have posted. The same reason many oldbies leave too.

 

[Urgat]

Imagine for one moment your were new to DAOC would you stay the course?

I personally think I would download the game for the 14 day trial, log on have a look round see, no one to grp with, maybe look for some forum sites to see whats up, stumble upon Freddyshouse and read all the abuse and crap and the like on these forums.

Any wonder why no one is interested in this game, the community we have left is by far the worst aspect of this game, just read the crap on this forum for a start.

I'm sorry to say the game I thought was the best thing ever once has declined to the point we have people waiting in a line to duel people coming on boats to Hib/Alb/Mid,

The end game was always supposed to be realm vs realm large scale battles not Infil vs SB with a few watching.

Eble

Also sums it up for me.

Very well said.

Roll on W.A.R.

 

[Coldbeard]

Oh please, if you think the daoc whine and flame on forum is something unique for the daoc community then you are indeed clueless :x

 

[eble]

Oh please, if you think the daoc whine and flame on forum is something unique for the daoc community then you are indeed clueless :x

Whine isn't just a DAOC thing for sure, I wouldn't be the first to get 'in game' abuse becuase I was doing something a 'few' people deemed was not the right thing.

I wasn't really referring to whine, more the 'add/do not add' 'you must play this way or your a cockend' threads, a small group of people who unfortunately for most other players have managed to force there point of view on the remaining playerbase.

Whats the end result of all this, a population thats dropping pretty fast, I'm talking about just the English EU servers at the moment.

Eble

 

[Kami]

DAOC was never well advertised and I think that Mythic and GOA really could have done a lot better if they'd put more revenue into that side of it. They both tried to do it on the cheap and strangled themselves from the outset. This game deserves to be massive, its far better than so many other MMORPGs out there.

One of the major problems with the game is new people coming to the game are vastly behind others who have played for years, this is justified to a certain extend because those who have played deserve to be ahead but in some cases it's near impossible to catch up or even get close. I have considered returning o the game but with new characters as a "newbie" and playing casually due to having less real-life time to give to the game but I know it'd easily take me 6 months to get even one character to 50, TOA'd, DR'd etc if I was playing just 4/5 hours a week. That's a long time, a huge time investment just to get almost level so I can RvR.

Then of course I'll just be steam rollered by 8 RR10s!

Then of course you have the problem of multiple accounts, how many people have two or more? the idea of needing to do that doesn't attract new players, it's been a problem for years that was never properly addressed by Mythic.


Mythic should introduce "advanced characters" like Ultime Online did, it takes out the unnecessary basework of characters if people don't want to. Like giving them the option to buy a level 30/40/45 char, buy your TOA requirements etc. It may annoy some existing customers but to be honest it's going to be needed shortly or you'll all be play with yourselves..

 

[Svartmetall]

Good read, with some very good points (and also some very silly ones, i.e. permadeath - duh).

"Well, the first virtual world that someone gets into is very special to them. It's a magical, enchanting, never-to-be-repeated experience. You thought it was only you who looked back wistfully on your early days like that? Nah, it's everyone."

Yep; DAOC was my first MMORPG, and I'll always have a special place for it in my heart because of it. I hate to even think of the time when the DAOC servers eventually get closed down, although rationally I know that at some point - hopefully a good few years from now - it's going to happen, because the attachment you make to your first virtual world is always special. The optimist in me - yes, I have one - hopes that EA will, instead of going "nah, fuck it, pull the plug" will go "hmm, WAR will be bigger but this could still be pretty popular if we promoted it a bit". Whether WAR going live will have a knock-on effect to bring a genuinely new bunch of players into DAOC is hard to say, but it's certainly possible. For sure, something would have to be done to open up the RvR part of the game to new people. My gut tells me WAR will be very, very big.

About the 'newbies' thing...taking 'newbies' to mean 'new players to this particular game', not new to the genre as a whole...he has a point. What happened to DAOC's RvR is a classic example of how to let something spiral out of control until it becomes a closed society, which is the last thing you want in an MMO. Every aspect of an MMO should be as open and inclusive as possible, so potential new people feel like it's something they can join in with and be a part of.

One of the inevitabilities of an MMO is that some people will hit the highest levels before others, and be off doing high-level stuff while other people are still doing low-level stuff, and it can feel as though ne'er the twain shall meet. This much is inevitable; I'm currently trying to get Svartmetall the WoW Dwarf Warrior to 60 so I can join in the fun high-end stuff with the rest of my guild. Doesn't make me enjoy the game any less, though, you have to accept that this sort of thing is going to be part and parcel of any game with levels in it.

It is a tad depressing to see how many new people are rolling in WoW all the time, compared to the sight of the tumbleweed that are blowing across the starter towns in DAOC. Is this all down to advertising? OK, we all know DAOC got effectively no advertising or promotion, and WoW had promotion up the wazoo - and the advantage of a ready-made audience in the form of all the Warcraft 1/2/3 players, who were pretty much bound to take a crack at the MMO version of the gameworld they already knew and loved - but I wonder what other factors were at play.

Has the incredible success of WoW been good for the MMO genre as a whole? I would have to say yes. People who might otherwise never have tried a persistent-world online game are now used to the idea, and when WAR comes out they will be looking at it from the viewpoint of "ahh, this is the sort of thing I'm used to" rather than the viewpoint of "WTF is this?". That's seven and a half million people who otherwise might never have given WAR a second glance. And, like WoW, WAR has the advantage of a ready-made audience all its own, in the shape of all the people who've played GW games in the past - quite possibly a larger number of people than those who played Warcraft 1/2/3. You can bet pretty good money that most of those will be having a look at WAR.

...

 

[Darzil]

One of the major problems with the game is new people coming to the game are vastly behind others who have played for years, this is justified to a certain extend because those who have played deserve to be ahead but in some cases it's near impossible to catch up or even get close. I have considered returning o the game but with new characters as a "newbie" and playing casually due to having less real-life time to give to the game but I know it'd easily take me 6 months to get even one character to 50, TOA'd, DR'd etc if I was playing just 4/5 hours a week. That's a long time, a huge time investment just to get almost level so I can RvR.

Then of course I'll just be steam rollered by 8 RR10s!

My argument on this is simple. If you want to run in 8vs8 combat, then yes, takes ages to get to 50, TOA'd, DR'd, RR5 etc. However, if you want to join large scale siege warfare, you can have fun with just 50, and the rest is a bonus. Advertising would add people on all three sides, after all. I've been playing for nearly 4 years, and though I have 9 50's, 7 of them ML10, most of them with decent kit, they still wouldn't get into good 8vs8 groups due to their lack of RR (or knowing the right people). Fortunately, I enjoy zerg and siege warfare (especially how much difference good strategies and positioning makes). I enjoy 8vs8, but one or two nights in 3 years doesn't count for much!

Darzil

 

[Nate]

if goa haven't advertised daoc in england for the last 5 years, they aren't going to start now...it has become beyond a joke and instead can be looked at as reality now, i guess we won't even see WAR being advertised in england..and even if they do, then u can ask the question why didn't you do it for daoc?

someone needs to hire a marketing department tbh

 

[Darzil]

if goa haven't advertised daoc in england for the last 5 years, they aren't going to start now...it has become beyond a joke and instead can be looked at as reality now, i guess we won't even see WAR being advertised in england..and even if they do, then u can ask the question why didn't you do it for daoc?

someone needs to hire a marketing department tbh

WAR will be advertised in UK, if by no one else then by Games Workshop.

Darzil

 

[Kami]

My argument on this is simple. If you want to run in 8vs8 combat, then yes, takes ages to get to 50, TOA'd, DR'd, RR5 etc. However, if you want to join large scale siege warfare, you can have fun with just 50, and the rest is a bonus. Advertising would add people on all three sides, after all. I've been playing for nearly 4 years, and though I have 9 50's, 7 of them ML10, most of them with decent kit, they still wouldn't get into good 8vs8 groups due to their lack of RR (or knowing the right people). Fortunately, I enjoy zerg and siege warfare (especially how much difference good strategies and positioning makes). I enjoy 8vs8, but one or two nights in 3 years doesn't count for much!

Darzil

Very true mate and I remember having fun in Albion with you and some of your guildies If I ever did come back I'd be with the zerg, I have fun at sieges (my fav part of the game) and don't mind dying. I just can't bare the thought of playing two characters at once again though and I certainly wont be returning with my old characters due to some bad feeling from ex"friends"

 

[Thadius]

Is SWG still up and running?

That was my first proper mmorpg(legend of mir doesnt count)

The graphics and storyline were classic, the pvp was a bit shoddy though

 

[Jupitus]

Good read, with some very good points (and also some very silly ones, i.e. permadeath - duh).

"Well, the first virtual world that someone gets into is very special to them. It's a magical, enchanting, never-to-be-repeated experience. You thought it was only you who looked back wistfully on your early days like that? Nah, it's everyone."

Yep; DAOC was my first MMORPG, and I'll always have a special place for it in my heart because of it. I hate to even think of the time when the DAOC servers eventually get closed down, although rationally I know that at some point - hopefully a good few years from now - it's going to happen, because the attachment you make to your first virtual world is always special. The optimist in me - yes, I have one - hopes that EA will, instead of going "nah, fuck it, pull the plug" will go "hmm, WAR will be bigger but this could still be pretty popular if we promoted it a bit". Whether WAR going live will have a knock-on effect to bring a genuinely new bunch of players into DAOC is hard to say, but it's certainly possible. For sure, something would have to be done to open up the RvR part of the game to new people. My gut tells me WAR will be very, very big.

About the 'newbies' thing...taking 'newbies' to mean 'new players to this particular game', not new to the genre as a whole...he has a point. What happened to DAOC's RvR is a classic example of how to let something spiral out of control until it becomes a closed society, which is the last thing you want in an MMO. Every aspect of an MMO should be as open and inclusive as possible, so potential new people feel like it's something they can join in with and be a part of.

One of the inevitabilities of an MMO is that some people will hit the highest levels before others, and be off doing high-level stuff while other people are still doing low-level stuff, and it can feel as though ne'er the twain shall meet. This much is inevitable; I'm currently trying to get Svartmetall the WoW Dwarf Warrior to 60 so I can join in the fun high-end stuff with the rest of my guild. Doesn't make me enjoy the game any less, though, you have to accept that this sort of thing is going to be part and parcel of any game with levels in it.

It is a tad depressing to see how many new people are rolling in WoW all the time, compared to the sight of the tumbleweed that are blowing across the starter towns in DAOC. Is this all down to advertising? OK, we all know DAOC got effectively no advertising or promotion, and WoW had promotion up the wazoo - and the advantage of a ready-made audience in the form of all the Warcraft 1/2/3 players, who were pretty much bound to take a crack at the MMO version of the gameworld they already knew and loved - but I wonder what other factors were at play.

Has the incredible success of WoW been good for the MMO genre as a whole? I would have to say yes. People who might otherwise never have tried a persistent-world online game are now used to the idea, and when WAR comes out they will be looking at it from the viewpoint of "ahh, this is the sort of thing I'm used to" rather than the viewpoint of "WTF is this?". That's seven and a half million people who otherwise might never have given WAR a second glance. And, like WoW, WAR has the advantage of a ready-made audience all its own, in the shape of all the people who've played GW games in the past - quite possibly a larger number of people than those who played Warcraft 1/2/3. You can bet pretty good money that most of those will be having a look at WAR.

...

All very true... also, you don't need a huge number of players in a game such as this. The gameplay is the same on 1 fully populated server as it would be on 500. Fact is though, that when that gameplay is very good, you may NEED 500 servers....

 

[Coolan]

MY first major step was good ol Ultima Online still reneq my accout from time to time, but anyways i'll be about till they close the servers down

 

[Lamp]

Good essay

In virtual worlds, the hardcore either wanders from one to the next, trying to recapture the experience of their first experience or they never left in the first place.

 

[liloe]

I found that to be a very interesting read and even more interesting to see the first posters exactly prove his points =) ("He's just a bitter old mud'er" - very outside view and not a tick of inside view)

Ok, I wouldn't stay with a PermaDeath game. I tried it with Diablo for a rather long time and it was sucky as hell =)) You made the same char over and over, everytime with your old+better equipment and it got very boring in the long run =)) Although it was quite entertaining at the start (and I met some cool guy there - hello Hotrats - 1 or 2y later I found out he played DAoC, lol =)) )

 

[Lamp]

100% agree with Svartmetall's post above.

No amount of advertising or tweeking any aspects of DAOC is going to revive the game. The only way is to release "DAOC 2", which isn't going to happen as it would be throwing money down the toilet in the light of WAR. DAOC is a dead dog with a few fleas still playing.