ML 3 RAID - Friday !!!

[Aserra]

Im most say im happy for all who was on the raid, it was a good raid I hope we can have som more raids (4 and 5 tomorrow) A speciell thx to our guide Galenas, U did a great job ... Thx Again . Exis

 

[Belomar]

I don't bother and don't even question if some ML Leader pre-claims a drop.
There are things more important for me than fights over some(s) item(s).
The completion of Master Level is more important than items for me.
I know i'm not the only one thinking this way.

Well, that's just the thing--leaders pre-claiming a drop are actually holding the zerg ransom (to borrow Gustav of the Mid/Prydwen boards' term) by effectively forcing them to choose between getting the ML credit or not getting the ML credit ("if you don't like the raid rules, don't join!") when the actual truth is that ML raids of a certain calibre are too rare to ignore (at least on Mid/Prydwen). There are not so many ML7 or ML9 raids going, for instance, so when one comes along, you can't afford to skip it. For casual players, it might even be that a certain raid happens to coincide with free time, and that is a rare thing.

What's more, telling someone to run their own raids is also unfair--first of all, the "market" may already be saturated, i.e. you can't run your own ML9 raid a few days after the one you skipped simply because there will not be enough people to join your raid. Secondly, let's face it, not everyone has the patience, experience and will to run a large-scale ML raid, and asking them to do so is also unfair.

I've run every ML raid imaginable, both on Mid/Prydwen and a few on Alb/Excal way back, and I have never preclaimed anything (and would not even dream of doing so) for the exact reasons given above. Pre-claiming raid leaders are just unfairly taking advantage of the attitude expressed by skorpio above.

Btw, I don't mean to start an argument over this, just expressing my views.

 

[Deathbloke]

Well, that's just the thing--leaders pre-claiming a drop are actually holding the zerg ransom (to borrow Gustav of the Mid/Prydwen boards' term) by effectively forcing them to choose between getting the ML credit or not getting the ML credit ("if you don't like the raid rules, don't join!") when the actual truth is that ML raids of a certain calibre are too rare to ignore (at least on Mid/Prydwen). There are not so many ML7 or ML9 raids going, for instance, so when one comes along, you can't afford to skip it. For casual players, it might even be that a certain raid happens to coincide with free time, and that is a rare thing.

What's more, telling someone to run their own raids is also unfair--first of all, the "market" may already be saturated, i.e. you can't run your own ML9 raid a few days after the one you skipped simply because there will not be enough people to join your raid. Secondly, let's face it, not everyone has the patience, experience and will to run a large-scale ML raid, and asking them to do so is also unfair.

I've run every ML raid imaginable, both on Mid/Prydwen and a few on Alb/Excal way back, and I have never preclaimed anything (and would not even dream of doing so) for the exact reasons given above. Pre-claiming raid leaders are just unfairly taking advantage of the attitude expressed by skorpio above.

Btw, I don't mean to start an argument over this, just expressing my views.

True to a certain degree, but then there is a turnover of new level 40 characters, some raids go much easier with pre-farming, which should certainly merit a claim or two, especially ML1, ML2, to a lesser extent ML3, and raids on the whole are exhausting to lead. I think just claiming one item on a raid is not being greedy. So many of the steps you can farm yourself with the right combination of classes.

Cetus cloak is definiately easy to farm, one of the easiest good cloaks to get, you need either a servant pally or guarded pally + pbt + rej cleric.

Helm of Kirk, I soloed the other week with servant necro and fop di2 bb.

ML2 is doable with a group and a half if the drops mean so much to you.

ML6 has real nice drops, but it is no problem for a group of sixteen or so to wander in there and do it a few times in a row. A quick check on the cost of Chimera remains on the ME, confirms the ease with which this can be done.

If you really want the items, get a second account and roll a servant necro, or a few mates and form an earth-pally group.

Leading a zerg is definately more an effort than just following it. I don't see why keeping a choice drop should be a problem. Mind I have had people turn up for credit for an arty when I was farming the other drops with my servant necro, then demanding a lotto for the drops too, after they have taken the credit *and* the artifact.

I did 5 raids last week, ML1, ML2, ML3, ML4 and ML6, and I can honestly say I feel it in my bones. It was a lot of effort for items that would sell on ebay for less than £10 all together. If you disagree that must make you a communist I think.

 

[xtb4]

So what you are implying or suggesting is that the casual gamer must become more hardcore (second account, etc) to even have a chance to get some items for their template etc? Many people have other things going on irl and can't make the same level of commitment that it takes to /lvl a necro and BB, get the templates sorted, the RA's etc.

I mourn the passing of the FFA lotto, where no items were pre-claimed, as it gave the people on the raid a chance to get a nice, perhaps rare/expensive, item that they could use or sell; now, the best items are usually pre-claimed.

Ah well......

 

[Deathbloke]

So what you are implying or suggesting is that the casual gamer must become more hardcore (second account, etc) to even have a chance to get some items for their template etc? Many people have other things going on irl and can't make the same level of commitment that it takes to /lvl a necro and BB, get the templates sorted, the RA's etc.

I mourn the passing of the FFA lotto, where no items were pre-claimed, as it gave the people on the raid a chance to get a nice, perhaps rare/expensive, item that they could use or sell; now, the best items are usually pre-claimed.

Ah well......

What you mean is that you want to log on a raid, follow the zerg, get a decent drop, while the people who farm for it, organize it and are responsible for it, should things go wrong, have no more rights to something than you?

Frankly, if you put less time in you should get less out, simple as that. You overesteem yourself if you think you deserve the same as other people who put ten times the time in and take ten times the grief.

 

[xtb4]

First off, I don't "overesteem" myself. I make a contribution to all raids I participate in and I don't expect to "turn-up, follow the zerg and get a decent drop. I like to think that my contribution to the success of the raid may be rewarded if I get a lucky roll.

I grant you that some raids are difficult to run, because of their length and complexity (ML9), but something like ML3 (now), ML5 and ML10 are just a "zerg4tehwin". Clearly, that takes skill

What I see are people feeling justified in making that call - maybe they "overesteem" themselves? A lot of raids are poorly-run, too long etc, so do they have "more rights to pre-claim". The recent attitude of

if you don't like it, run your own raid

indicates to me that the organisers / leaders are arrogant and are not respectful of the people who make the raid a success (i.e. the zerg).

I understand that the motivations for people running raids are always different - some people enjoy leading, some are doing something for the community, making money etc - I just happen to believe that pre-claiming specific items is not fair. The increasing prevelance of pre-claiming is, perhaps, a reflection of a general change within Alb/Excal towards a more "fuck you" attitude.

Anyway, this isn't a personal attack aimed at you or any others; I'm merely expressing my views.

 

[Deathbloke]

First off, I don't "overesteem" myself. I make a contribution to all raids I participate in and I don't expect to "turn-up, follow the zerg and get a decent drop. I like to think that my contribution to the success of the raid may be rewarded if I get a lucky roll.

I grant you that some raids are difficult to run, because of their length and complexity (ML9), but something like ML3 (now), ML5 and ML10 are just a "zerg4tehwin". Clearly, that takes skill

What I see are people feeling justified in making that call - maybe they "overesteem" themselves? A lot of raids are poorly-run, too long etc, so do they have "more rights to pre-claim". The recent attitude of indicates to me that the organisers / leaders are arrogant and are not respectful of the people who make the raid a success (i.e. the zerg).

I understand that the motivations for people running raids are always different - some people enjoy leading, some are doing something for the community, making money etc - I just happen to believe that pre-claiming specific items is not fair. The increasing prevelance of pre-claiming is, perhaps, a reflection of a general change within Alb/Excal towards a more "fuck you" attitude.

Anyway, this isn't a personal attack aimed at you or any others; I'm merely expressing my views.

Your argument is that a leader who makes more of a contribution that you, and who holds higher responsibility, deserves no more than you. Yours is the attitude of 'fuck you.' It is selfishness.

Try running a raid then not turning up. Then tell people you are joining one then not turn up. The former will shame you, the latter will rarely raise a note.
I find the biggest stress of a raid is actually making sure one's family does not intefere with its execution. Clearly you just don't consider that a relevance, that is because you are insensitive.

Your notion of fairness amounts to greed, the greed that says it deserves for existing, and taking from those who have laboured. I've been on three raids this week and been happy with the raid leader taking an item, just as I have done so on my own raids. If you want your 'fair' turn, then run a raid, simple as that. There is nothing in this world stopping you posting a raid annoucement after this post.

 

[xtb4]

Deathbloke,

Your jump in logic is flawed (about family and insenstivity - do I detect some guilt on your behalf for ignoring your family?) and you insult me (greedy, selfish, etc) all because I have a different view point to you. Your obvious overesteem for yourself / your views, and the last line about posting a raid, proves my point.

 

[Deathbloke]

Of course there is family conflict. A raid can go on for four hours. That is the cause of stress when one lives in a household where other people place demands on ones time. There is no flaw in my logic there.

Yes I have insulted you, but then you claimed I was unfair, and my attitude was dismissed with an expletive phrase. It was plain to me you had dismissed altogether my greater responsibility, and the cost of it, in evaluating your relative contribution to the raid. The fact that you chose not to do so makes you insensitive and inconsiderate.