metric vs imperial?

[Raven]

heres an example of it going out of control
BBC NEWS | England | London | 'Metric martyr' broke trading law

To be fair that's just a case of pointless, jumped up little nobodies at the council justifying their existence. I very much doubt normal people give a shit.

Last September, European Union commissioners ruled that Britain can carry on using imperial measurements such as pints, pounds and miles.

That's good of them, I hope they all contract genital herpes

 

[tris-]

To be fair that's just a case of pointless, jumped up little nobodies at the council justifying their existence. I very much doubt normal people give a shit.

but that isnt being fair raven.
trade equipment which isnt stamped is against the law to be used for trade.
it could be completley inaccurate, therfore ripping off the consumer.
if its not stamped then its either a)not been tested for accuracy or b)been tested and found to be inaccurate, so had the stamp obliterated or c)its not weighing in metric as well as imperial.
as a consumer, would you be happy buying by weight off someone who has scales which have no proof they are accurate?
if you think weights and measures is a pointles thing, we may aswell revert back to the practices of the medieval era. would you prefer it if equipment wasnt accurate then? and then traders could just sell you what ever they wanted and youd have no say in the matter.

add to that, only selling in lbs make it difficult for the consumer to compare the prices to other places which sell in metric. which again is a negative to the consumer.

 

[tris-]

There is a big difference between the system and the units.

if you read the legislation, it is defined as "imperial system", that is exactly what it says. if the law says the pint is imperial system, then measuring in the pint is using the imperial system.
an automatic beer pump measures in pints and half pints, because it is on the imperial system. it doesnt measure in quantities of 284ml and 568ml.

read this, page 3
http://www.nwml.gov.uk/Docs/Enforcement/7000 series/7310.pdf

the pint and half pint is even defined at a local standard level for delivery measures, to test capacity measures of pint and half pints. it isnt defined as a ml quantity.
as its got a local standard, it can follow that the national weights and measures lab has a standard there which is "the pint" not "the 568ml"
if a w+m inspector goes out to test a pint glass, he measures the amount in terms of 'pint' NOT ml.

 

[Ctuchik]

Personally I find British measurement schizophrenia quite endearing. One of the things that makes us unique.

no, driving on the wrong side of the road makes you "unique"

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

One persons wrong side is another persons right side, plus you are from some place I can't even pronounce so that automatically makes your comments worthless.


plus i won a gallon of beer the other week at a pub quiz and the tickets said 1 PINT on them

they take blood in pints, they tell maggots in pints, "STUPID METRIC" as Homer would say

:england:

 

[Cadelin]

if you read the legislation, it is defined as "imperial system", that is exactly what it says. if the law says the pint is imperial system, then measuring in the pint is using the imperial system.
an automatic beer pump measures in pints and half pints, because it is on the imperial system. it doesnt measure in quantities of 284ml and 568ml

The pint is defined as:
1 pint = 568.26125 ml
This technically makes the pint metric as it is not defined in terms of fluid onces anymore but . A pint is just a convenient way of saying 568.26125 ml. Where can you go an buy 1 pint 3 fluid onces of something? You can't and thats because we don't use the imperial system. As I said before its like claiming somebody can count because they can say 1. Or claiming you speak French because you can say bonjour.

Anyway we clearly disagree on some issues and I don't think further arguments will help resolve this.

 

[Malcolm]

personally i prefer imperial as metric stormtroopers wouldn't have been as impressive

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

"A pint is just a convenient way of saying 568.26125 ml"

ORLY

and you don't think the word PINT was used before the METRIC system came out, that's not possible is it.



saying you're comments are flawed is just a simple way of saying that you are talking bollox

 

[DaGaffer]

no, driving on the wrong side of the road makes you "unique"

No we're on the "right" side of the road (seriously, for a mostly right-handed population, its true), and about 75 other countries agree with us, so not that unique really.

 

[tris-]

Anyway we clearly disagree on some issues

i agree with the facts but it seems you dont for some reason.

the pint is the imperial system of measurement, and as its still in use for trade, there is local standards of capacity measurement called the pint, which measures in terms of pints.

ill refer you back to this document, page 3 so you can re clarify your thoughts http://www.nwml.gov.uk/Docs/Enforcement/7000 series/7310.pdf

you will notice that there is no local standard for anything called "568ml".
there is a local standard entitled imperial pint, which measures in multiples of the pint.

everywhere in weights and measures law that you look at will refer to it as the pint and the imperial system. not "the 568....ml in the metric system"

its true to say that the standard pint is 568 what ever, but measuring by the pint is using the imperial system.

in other words you could say its an imperial unit in an imperial system, but there is a metric equivalent.

 

[tris-]

you can see here too The Measuring Instruments (Capacity Serving Measures) Regulations 2006

its called "imperial system" which means using the pint is using the imperial system. otherwise it would say something completley different.
the pint is a pint, but it has a metric equivalent.
the pint is a capacity in its self.

also look at this this way. its like saying "the cubit isnt the imperial system, its just a handy way to say 45.72cm"
that doesnt mean the cubit is metric. it means the cubit is a cubit but its metric equivalent is 45.72cm.

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

exactly, i hated it when Marathons turned into Snickers

 

[Raven]

no, driving on the wrong side of the road makes you "unique"

It goes back to the time when horseman would carry a sword

Why do some countries drive on the right and others on the left ? Not our fault the rest of the world is weird

 

[Cadelin]

"A pint is just a convenient way of saying 568.26125 ml"

ORLY

From your sarcasm I take it you disagree with this statement? I guess if you prefer to say, I'll have 568.26125 ml of beer please in a pub I'll let you look stupid. I am simply saying that because its easy to say a pint we keep using it but that doesn't mean we are still using the imperial system because when we make a measurement we do it in metric.

and you don't think the word PINT was used before the METRIC system came out, that's not possible is it.



saying you're comments are flawed is just a simple way of saying that you are talking bollox

It doesn't matter what came out first and I never said that the metric system came along before the imperial system. Do you have a point?

As I have said several times before using a pre-defined quantity doesn't mean we are using any system.

 

[dysfunction]

yeh i dont think its as simple as dysfunction says.
as an inch is defined as 2.54cm
so in a metric equivalent youd have to ask for 5.4x10.16!

No you wouldn't cos the item would be made to 5x10cm...

So how would you fit your 5x10 piece of wood into a house built 50 years ago?

I doubt your 2x4 would fit perfectly in a house built 50 years ago either.
You are bound to have to trim something somewhere...not much fits perfectly even in a house built using metric!

 

[tris-]

No you wouldn't cos the item would be made to 5x10cm...

which is quite a bit shorter than 2inches by 4 inches, is it not?

As I have said several times before using a pre-defined quantity doesn't mean we are using any system.

in this case though, the pint is a quantity in its self and has a metric equivalent in ml.

 

[dysfunction]

which is quite a bit shorter than 2inches by 4 inches, is it not?

Why would that matter? unless of course you have an exact space of 2x4inches but that's not very likely really.

 

[tris-]

same reason it would matter if your trouser legs were an inch short.
the piece wouldnt be the right size.

 

[pez]

I more or less agree with Cadelin. If I went in to a Greengrocers and asked for a box of apples I wouldn't be using the 'box system.' I think it was best summed up with if you asked someone who just ordered a pint in a pub how much was in a pint he would (probably) say something along the lines of 'just over half a litre.'

 

[tris-]

but the difference is the imperial system exists and the box system doesnt.
the imperial system is defined in current law, and under the imperial system is a capacity measurement called pint.

so does it not follow then, that if you use the imperial pint youre working with the imperial system of measurement?

although if you disagree with facts in legislation and documents produced by the NWML, then i dont know what to tell you.
the only reason someone can say "its just over half a litre" is because they are aware of the metric system.
if you went back to the 1700s england and asked someone theyd say "its a pint, made up x amount of fl ozs".

the pint is a measurement in its self, and it has an EQUIVALENT metric system value of 568.etc ml.
i would agree with you if the pint was just an easier way to say something else. but its not, is it literally its own measurement just like the ml is its own measurement.

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

i would hold up the pint glass and say "just enough to fill in here"


are there no fishermen in here, i said in a previous post about a pint of maggots for bait. theorise that out if you can in the metric system

 

[pez]

Yes but when you order a pint I don't believe you are using the Imperial system. Its a name for a specific amount in a specific situation. If the law changed and a pint was no longer a legal measurement, 568 ml was, would you stop ordering pints or pubs would stop you when you ordered a pint and say 'sorry sir we no longer use the imperial system you will have to order a 568ml?' I don't think its legal status is relevant to wether or not, in our daily lives, we use the imperial system.

I agree that the pint is a measure, I'm not disputing that, but surely for us to use a system the pint must exists alongside other measures which make up and are made up by it.

Maybe I am seeing it differently because I have no idea what a gallon or a fluid ounce is in relation to a pint, I only know that a pint and a half pint are in a pub. I could call them big ones and little ones and I would be using just as much of the imperial system.

 

[tris-]

yes the pint is an aspect of the imperial measurement system working alongside the metric system.

you need to see it in the way that the pint is a pint just like the litre is a litre. they are their own capacities of measurement.
but you can also say the pint has an equivalent metric value.

i understand what your point is though. forget about pints and litres and lets look at ounces and grams. the ounce is an imperial measurement which has a metric value in grammes. and the ounce is based on a certain number of grains of i think either wheat or barley.

so its fair to say the ounce is imperial, and it is equal to x amount of grains. but it also has a metric equivallent in grammes and the gram is based on a volume of water.

maybe more confusing but i hope it demonstrates that the 2 systems are infact systems and not just a way of saying something.

i can see though that for the everyday bloke going about his drinking business he just wants to get what he knows is a pint and doesnt care about what it is

if you really want to get into it i guess you can say a fl oz is the amount of fluid that is equal to a certain number of grains by mass.
so your pint weighs the same as x number of grains!

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes but when you order a pint I don't believe you are using the Imperial system. Its a name for a specific amount in a specific situation...

No, you're wrong. In fact, its illegal to sell draught beer or cider in pubs in the UK in anything other than Imperial measures. Its one of the only official Imperial measures that will be left after 2009 (along with miles and acres). There were cases of local councils a few years back trying to put up Metre signs and they were forced to remove them. Its the same with beer, you have to get a special dispensation to sell beer in 1/2 or 1 liter glasses and Trading Standards would check your glasses against an Imperial pint, not a 568ml measure.

 

[tris-]

DaG - i only found out recently my self but the 2009 limit has been voided by the EU now. theyre leaving the govt to do as they wish with imperial and metric

the eu directive should be getting ammended at some point to relfect this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aLq5i1NnTumQ&refer=uk report here if you can geton it

"In a belated victory for Britain's anti-metric campaigners, the European Commission dropped plans to force the U.K. and Ireland to replace Imperial measures such as pints, yards, feet and inches with the metric system by 2009. "

i guess you can say were back to square 1 with it now. i reckon we will carry on faffing about like weve done the past couple 100 years

 

[Ormorof]

main problem i have with imperial is that everyone seems to have different ideas of what the measurements are!

a friend of mine put this perfectly when i had this discussion with her "Of course everyone knows how long an inch is! its the length of the top of your thumb!" not thinking forward to the fact that pretty much everyone has different length thumbs

 

[dysfunction]

same reason it would matter if your trouser legs were an inch short.
the piece wouldnt be the right size.

How do you know it wouldn't be the right size?
The right size for what exactly? Depends what your use for it would be.

All I'm saying is it could quite easily be a substitute...if what you are building is in metric and you were using a 5x10cm then it would be the right size.

If you compared your finished product to one made by 2x4inch they would not look a lot different!

 

[tris-]

main problem i have with imperial is that everyone seems to have different ideas of what the measurements are!

a friend of mine put this perfectly when i had this discussion with her "Of course everyone knows how long an inch is! its the length of the top of your thumb!" not thinking forward to the fact that pretty much everyone has different length thumbs

back in the old days it used to be the width of the thumb.
before that it was the length of 3 barley corns!

How do you know it wouldn't be the right size?
The right size for what exactly? Depends what your use for it would be.

All I'm saying is it could quite easily be a substitute...if what you are building is in metric and you were using a 5x10cm then it would be the right size.

If you compared your finished product to one made by 2x4inch they would not look a lot different!

may not look different but the technical side would show it is. im not into building stuff though so i dont know how important that would be.

 

[dysfunction]

I'm not either but if you think for example of using pieces of wood to lay down floor boards. You use 2x4 I use 5x10, then there will be no real difference to the end product really. Would be the same amount of work if you had the same size room*....




*room size can't be perfectly divided by the 2x4's! (or the 5x10's for that matter!)

 

[tris-]

i guess then the problem is its harder to add than it is to take away.
maybe thats one of toms issues.