Maxpackets 100

[Chameleon]

I wonder if anyone can explain why ADSL is not capable of supporting the requirements of cl_maxpackets 100 ?
I played in a 2 round league game last night. The first round, a convincing win ......... then comes the second round and suddenly my teammates and I notice that we cannot hit the enemy, at all! But the other team don't seem to miss this time! I noticed at about 8-10 mins in that they have changed their q3 settings to cl_maxpackets 100. Ah! I think, so I do the same ......... but for me cl_maxpackets 100 makes things only worse, not better. I found it impossible to play. Getting the flag was hard enough, but trying to escape was impossible, as I seemed to have lead in my boots the whole time ...... almost like I'm moving at half the speed. I could literally see things happening in front of me, in like slow motion ...... knowing what was about to happen, and trying to deal with it, but finding that I just could not get my connection to respond quick enough.
ADSL should be capable of dealing with such bandwith requirements surely. I ping 20 in tracerts with ZERO packet loss and q3 feels smooth as ........ but the change in the game due to these settings changes was so 'in your face' obvious, yet I could do nothing. My conn is always spot on, I know my settings are good for the connection type I have, but in a similar way to Dredded's post the other day, I'm being sapped of playability by people whos conns seem to handle the high settings better than mine.
Why is ADSL, this new 'broadband' technology so inadequate? Pings and stability seem fine, the connection is l33t ....... just not against things like cable modem. I just don't get it.
I'm with Nildram adsl btw, currently using the newnet pipe ....... which is totally tip-top adsl.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

<predictable>

It's the beards fault!

</predictable>

 

[Sar]

Lol

ADSL is so shit. My NTL CM handles 100 maxpax easily.

Think you'll prolly find it was the inherent crapness of ADSL rearing it's ugly mofo head again.

 

[Chameleon]

Maybe Requiem might put in his view anyway ...... but reading the ucguide, it suggests cl_maxpackets 60 as the 'maximum' for connection types 'ADSL / Cable / Wireless'. Now I'm not dissing the guide for a second, but ADSL and Cable are both classed together, as if comparable (which the specifications of the line types might suggest too), but the reality seems very different. I would also think that ADSL ought to be capable of handling these kinds of settings, but I'm obviously missing something cos it just wont stretch that far.
Would it be the upstream that is holding my connection back, preventing me setting maxpackets higher? Shouldn't the specs of ADSL allow for these settings? Or does this train of thought go back to ........ wait for it .............. BT?

 

[old.dredded]

errrr ))

hi cham ))
q3 is a crazy game huh ).lol
weird,, i had it to last night ,
I had rockets and rails going straight through the target.
Even a guy with a 56k modem, i hard a hard time to kill.

i swear i hit him with 4 rockets and he still walked on ????
Somethings very weird with q3 at the moment ??
or maybe i need to drink some more beer..hehe.
My q3 is super smooth 2? ,conns a bit glitchy sometimes,

Think we need some help from req to take a much closer look at q3 and maybe the net code?.
But i ve had the same problem as u .?>>>

i seemed to have lead in my boots the whole time ...... almost like I'm moving at half the speed. I could literally see things happening in front of me, in like slow motion ......

Also when i had the flag ??
but that was in osp99w. >> BUG???? maybe ?uke:
But lead boots ,,yep ive had that to,,not just with running away ,,
also on turning and fire,,it also felt slow.?

All i can say is ,,Thank god its not just me,,and its happend to somebody else ,,,,> jeez thought i was crap..LOOOOOOL,, hehe

But i sympathise with u Cham ..)))
And u are 100% right in what u said,
But maybe we will never find an explanation ,,>>? Im still looking.
If ever i find anything ill give u a shout )))

 

[Sar]

Upstream on ADSL is twice that of NTL Cable modem, so if my conn can handle 100 maxpax fine, then in theory ADSL should too...

 

[old.venturer01]

FROM
http://WWW.QUAKENATION.COM
THIS LINK
http://www.ukgamer.net/columns.php3?author=53

On timenudge

 

[Chameleon]

Yeah, cheers for the link. I read it last night. It's got some interesting stuff. Some of it doesn't quite ring true, but it's an interesting read with some useful info.

 

[Sar]

It reads fairly accurately to me? I think Arqon should know his onions

 

[Chameleon]

O yeah, the theory all adds up ...... but like the fact that ADSL should be as good at mp100 as cable modem, the reality of what you experience on-line is quite different. There's way too many variables involved imho for anyone to be so precise about how these things work. It sounds plausible, but it's not how it feels on-line for the most part.

I was trying maxpackets 80 and 100 last night, but I still get this kinda 'tractor beam' effect from cable modemers. I wonder how it appears to them, when on my screen I get this stall, sudden rush of activity, then death, before I can get my conn to respond. I assume it just appears that I don't move, or maybe I do move, but I just dont see it at my end.

 

[Sar]

That's deffo your ADSL, sounds munted. Exactly like most other ADSL then.

 

[Chameleon]

omg i just realised I can get NTL cable modem now! Doh!
I knew that if I got ADSL, CM would become available within a month! Like bloody buses! None for ages, then two come along at once!

 

[old.Gibzz]

Ch@m , is that the same one down south? Gimme a shout if u want some feedback on Cable down here, I'm just moving over to cable (had it for aboue 2 weeks now).....went for the 128k/64k cheaper deal and so far its fine for gaming and u can upgrade at any time to 512/128...I actually get downloads at about 30k, uploads 128k, but Im better as its new down here its quiet and will slowly get busier. They even turned my net conn on within 30 mins

Regarding the ADSL, what conn are ISP are you with btw?

I've had Nilly ADSL for best part of a year and always used maxp 100, I had ISDN before that and used maxpackets 100, so not sure why u think it won't support it, maybe the ISP was having a hard time or something :/. Thats all I can think of, the only other difference I'm guess is that higher maxpackets means more smaller packets, but I'm not sure why that would be an issue either.

One thing a lot of people don't realise is that maxpackets is tied to your framerate. If you set maxpackets at 100, often you won't be sending 100 packets/sec. This is depends on com_maxfps and/or framerate, i.e if you cap at maxfps 125, you will probably only send 60 pkts/sec...I did this before 1.31, so something might of changed a bit...but here is a kinda chart I did with different fps settings and diff maxpackets settings...it may be of use to some in understanding it....

www.gibz.nildram.co.uk/maxpax.html

So basically u need to take into account your framerate. A lower framerate will always cap maxpackets by the way for any people with low spec machines but broadband, so if u set maxpackets at 100, and only get 50 fps, u are effectively capping your maxpackets as well.

I think Id has simply made it so that each packet sent to the server contains the same amout of updates each time...so if u have 120 fps, it will send 1 packet with the info of the clients actions for 2 frames if any of that makes sense, this is why I think its suggested to make maxpackets a divisor of your framerate, but I think Id kinda forces that anyway.

The other interesting one is all of the suggestions that high maxpackets causes more bandwidth received to other users (and not just from the client), I even saw a flawed test (imo) on clanbase showing an increase. Whenever I've tested it doesn't tho, I would like to test this more tho..... http://www.gibz.nildram.co.uk/maxpackets_test.jpg was the network monitor, the first part maxpackets 30, the second part maxpackets 100, basically one person firing plasma, lg, rox, mg close one one person, and then doing the same with maxpackets 100, u can see a small break inbetween while tooling for ammo to distinguish them. The monitor was put on the person who wasnt changing maxpackets but had the other guy firing at him whilst changing his.


Btw if it helps anyone guage bandwidth http://www.gibz.nildram.co.uk/ I did those screenies ages ago with different settings....the thing that seems to be evident is that maxpackets is fairly consistant from client -> server, only adding your movements firing etc, where as snaps/rate dictate your receiving traffic which is a LOT more variable depending how many players are in your view, moving platforms etc, one of the reasons maps like Q3CTF4 is very good for testing incomming bandwidth...

What does all this mean? Who knows, all it means to me at the end is that no one seems to know the whole picture, and everyone just needs to try and find the best settings they can until one day someone has the whole lot figured out A couple of people have got close tho, Req being a fountain of knowledge that we all look up to . Hopefully at some point someone will explain it all

 

[Chameleon]

Thanks mate, that's really useful info. Thanks for taking the time to write so much.
Yeah I'm down in Brighton mate, on the South coast. Apparently I can get Cable Modem from NTL at my house or my girlfriends house (which is where I have ADSL atm). I'm just deciding whether I can justify having ADSL and Cable Modem for 6 months while my adsl contact runs out I know this might be a sickening statement for the poor few who can't get either
I have Nildram adsl and am currently on the Newnet pipe, which tbh goes like a rocket. Tracerts come back at between 11 and 20ms on most hops to popular gaming servers. I can set mp100 on this conn, but it doesn't seem to make any improvement at all. I don't use mp100 as a rule, cos I don't think its fair on isdn'ers, but if I play a league game and an opponent has mp100, I go to mp100. Only thing is, it doesnt seem to counteract the mad effects that people on mp100 have on me. If im in a game and I see the tell tale signs of the weird pausing effects, I check '/players' and they always have mp100. I dont recall seeing the effect against someone without mp100. It certainly seems 'real' ........ but it's a damn sight harder to actually qualify the feeling.
My settings btw ......

(I get about 200 fps in a timedemo)

com_maxfps 150 (sometimes 125 depending on the map)
cl_packetdup 0 (sometimes 1/2 depending on pl)
rate 10000
cl_maxpackets 75 (sometimes 100 depending on slpb cm scum )
snaps 20 (sometimes changed if I know the server sv_fps is different)

So you reckon adsl ought to be able to handle network settings as 'high-end' as cm?

btw, who do you have cm with mate?

Ch@m

 

[old.Gibzz]

Yeah I'm down in Brighton, have cable with NTL, so I'd guess you'd be the same.....I already had Cable TV, so to add an extra 128k/64k (down/up) cable conn is only £15 p/m thats it, and u can upgrade at any time (or downgrade). Pings are about 15-20 to say Jolt/BW mainly. Sometimes it feels a bit more erratic than Nilly ADSL (Newnet pipe), but overall it feels a slighty better game for less money. You should really be able to handle any maxpackets on adsl or cable imo, but you've given me an idea for another test which may give me an extra clue

I personally didn't have a prob with maxpackets 100, but then again tbh I don't go checking what other players have (I tend to play Threewave so u can't find out), and haven't changed my settings fer ages, could be I could go down to 60 and find its suddenly better, but its not what I've found really. Basically I always try to match what I normally play with what I'll play in any league. I.e if theres a 76 maxp cap, I'd use that on the pubbies etc.

The interesting thing is, you say you up maxpackets to 100 for lpb scum, but according to the testing I did, if u still had com_maxfps at 150, you would still be shoving out 75 p/s. I personally find the psychology one of the hardest things in Q3, someone kills you, and often you look for what settings the player has, you don't tend to recall the lesser settings, mainly the ones which stand out, a bit like when u are railed 4 times in a row, suddenly maybe something seems odd, but then again its gonna happen, u just dont recall all the 1 rails in a row . I'm not saying that about anything here, just something I've felt when I've tried to analyse my own "feel" of the game when I play.

Out of interest when u do /players, does it show their com_maxfps as well as maxpackets?

Anyways I'd defo recommend NTL cable down here at the moment, but it is new here, and as more people sign up, it can only get worse hehe.

 

[Chameleon]

iirc /players shows

maxpackets
rate
snaps
timenudge

no com_maxfps.

I think my com_maxfps 150 and maxpackets 75 is prolly a good combination ....... but something about certain people's setup definately has this weird 'pause, sudden action, death' effect before I can even get my conn to respond. I've factored in 'being owned' and while sometimes it is surely the case, there's a definate something going on against some players where I just cannot fight due to this weird phenomomomonom

The other thing which bothers me is that on ADSL you can set maxpackets to 30 and your ping is suddenly about 25-30 (instead of usual 40-50), but with cable modem it seems possible to set maxpackets to 100 and STILL get 25-30 ping. There does seem to be a difference here between cm and adsl.

 

[bigfoot]

My ping doesn't get any lower with cl_maxpackets 30, it is still 50+, however it does if i tinker with the server settings and then use 30.

on NTL cable btw.

 

[Chameleon]

Who's your cm provider? Bodget, Legget & Scarper? That's awful ping for CM bif!
Can you tell me what sv_fps is on the BW publics and league servers btw?

 

[Sar]

Well I ping 50 on cable, but I am in NI so I always ping higher than ppl on the mainland basically cos of geography.

Bif's in Scotland, so probably a similar story for him.

We're both NTL btw

 

[Sar]

I think bw sv_fps is 20?

 

[bigfoot]

Yeh i'm in Scotland, i get 13 hops on a return trace from BW compared with 7 to ODEE (can't remember where he lives) who is also on NTL as a brand new customer. I've always had to put up with higher pings, it used to be solid 50 but for past 6 months its been 50 at best, more like 55-65 on a GOOD day. It can get lower though with tinkering (set sv_fps 30 then set my snaps 30 or 60, cl_maxpackets 30)

BW currently uses sv_fps of 20 on all servers afaik. We are looking at upping this, the major problem is that snaps is not settable server side (unlike TN or Rate or Maxpackets) and if u have snaps below sv_fps then your connection gets seriously wankered. This could work in leagues though as you can make people aware of it, i have mailed Rhea asking for it in the next OSP cos i presume if he can report it then he can in someway enforce a min / max level.

 

[old.Gibzz]

Only issue with that is ISDNers/Modemers get "wankered" as their conns often can't sustain snaps 25 at busy moments on servers.

 

[Sar]

Why cater for wank conns anyway?

The majority of committed Q3 players will be on bb anyway, be it adsl or cable. ISDN-ers have to put up with bollox connections and high pings anyhow so I doubt they'd notice much of a difference

As for modemers: LOLOLOLOL

Hehehe, good one

 

[old.Gibzz]

Hmm can't believe ppl still come out with this shit

 

[bigfoot]

ISDN is still pretty popular, and if NTL goes tits up worse case scenario their CM network could go offline. For good. In this case i'd be on ISDN as i can't get DSL, as i am sure a few other people would be too.

That said we do want to accomodate people with broadband which is becoming more and more common, and those on ISDN should really be using 128K ISDN for proper gaming which should in theory be able to cope with say, sv_fps 25.

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by Gibzz
Hmm can't believe ppl still come out with this shit

Really?

Take a poll of the BWDML first div, see what percentage of players are on BB, and what percentage on narrowband.

 

[old.Gibzz]

Its got nothing to do with percentages ta

No server settings should be forced that disallow 1 player to connect imo

Why should people be forced to use 128k isdn? Some ISPs don't support it for a start.

Like it or not modemers do play this game, I even play on a modem if my bb conn goes tits up. At the moment I can play on a modem, last time I played I even got several caps and effectively won the match for the side I was on.

What exactly is the problem for broadbanders at this moment in time? I've been playing fer ages on bb without any issue. Things pretty smooth. Sure I would gain a slight advantage by a server having sv_fps higher, but I'm certainly not going to support it if it means modemers can't play, some ISDNers can't play, some ISDNers suddenly have to change ISPs and costs them more to play.

All because of "what" exactly? A couple of broadbanders have suddenly started moaning when everyones been playing on these settings for 2 years now with no complaints. Things have actually moved on over here, no thanks to BT , but I'm not gonna go around chopping off players just to suit some.

Ages back iirc Jolt upped their sv_fps, certainly on the clan arena server at the time. That didn't last long on there.

 

[Chameleon]

Originally posted by Gibzz
What exactly is the problem for broadbanders at this moment in time? I've been playing fer ages on bb without any issue. Things pretty smooth. Sure I would gain a slight advantage by a server having sv_fps higher, but I'm certainly not going to support it if it means modemers can't play, some ISDNers can't play, some ISDNers suddenly have to change ISPs and costs them more to play.

All because of "what" exactly? A couple of broadbanders have suddenly started moaning when everyones been playing on these settings for 2 years now with no complaints.

I've not asked for any settings to be changed.
The advantage for the CM'ers is very evident in the higher divisions of the vanilla ctf leagues. I'm curious to know how ADSL can be lamed out by CM connection players so easily. I could produce a list as long as my arm of players who went from ADSL or ISDN, to CM and suddenly became 10 times the player they were the day before .......... the type of player you cannot go near cos your connection goes to shit. It just doesn't add up. ADSL should be as good, but it just aint.
Tbh I don't see modemers in the league anymore, but then I'm not suggesting the settings are changed, so I don't really mind either way ....... it's for them to say ..... if they are still around.

 

[old.Gibzz]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't implying u were asking fer any changes Ch@m...

What I was really getting at was a fair while ago I argued regarding settings like maxpackets. The difference here really was tho that ISDNers could set their maxpackets to 100, if their ISP couldn't sustain it, they "could" lower it. There were calls to make the minimum maxpackets 30, when often modemers can't with a daccs in their line can't sustain it. I've always opposed that as well and suggested maybe 25. If I wanted smoother gameplay and movement from others I would force all clients to use maxpackets 100, but I'm defo not gonna suggest that one.

The issue really is the enforcement. Why should anyone be forced to use settings that will saturate their connection? It just doesn't make sense to me, I wanna bring more ppl to Q3, not make it impossible for some to play and just a game for the l33t.

I'm just wary of people introducing settings that are capped (mainly if the min is capped too high forcing saturation) without some serious investigation. Maybe league matches do indeed entice more of a serious gamer, but I personally like the idea of all servers public and match servers to use the same settings, and herein u definitely do find a fair amount of modemers and ISDNers. Like I said, I haven't seen a problem for Cablers yet that have all the strings already....lowest pings (for some hehe), can hit the maxrate, so I'm not sure why settings should be bent towards them further at the expense of others.

Regarding the ADSL side of things ch@m I'm really not sure, I've just moved from ADSL to cable and tbh (still got them both for another couple of weeks until adsl goes if theres any testing that will help) if anything I find it harder to be as accurate. My ping is often lower, but with my old Nilly ADSL my ping was always bang on +- a couple of ms only, and that seemed to help my accuracy. Only other thing I can think of is packetsizes maybe somehow getting chopped up, cos ADSL defo has the bandwidth, more upload than cable even.

Was it yourself that used Smoothwall? Just wondering, theres no way that could be impacting on your conn in some fashion is there? Only time I remember getting hold ups on ADSL is really when someone was being deadly accurate on me with the lg or plasma, so maybe its a settings thing. Btw some servers can enforce a min/max maxpackets/nudge etc, just wondering if any server settings may have changed out there?

 

[Chameleon]

Ah sorry I misunderstood.
I do use Smoothwall, yes. There are no problems with it afaik. I can certainly tracert to gaming ips and get back very respectable 15-20 ms from most hops with zero packet loss. Not sure how I could test further?
Ok, lemme ask another question ......

Say i wanted to use maxpackets 100 ..... wouldn't I have to find an fps level where I could cap at say com_maxfps 100 or 200? As I understand it the maxfps and maxpackets should be equal or divisors of the other? You said earlier on:

"The interesting thing is, you say you up maxpackets to 100 for lpb scum, but according to the testing I did, if u still had com_maxfps at 150, you would still be shoving out 75 p/s"

So I take it from that, that to get 100 p/s, I'd need com_maxfps of 100, 200, etc ?

If I was to cap at maxfps 100, I'd be short of the magic 125 figure, plus id be inviting slow down in big fights due to a low fps level. As I see it, my only option to have a sustainable mp100 is to tweak my cfg back to the level it used to be so that I could set com_maxfps 200 and be reasonably certain that i would get that average frame rate?