Many sbs respeccing to cb?

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by old.Leel
And you don't hit for that kind of damage on doublefrost buffed vs buffed unless it's a shadowzerker you're facing, and they SHOULD do that kind of damage to you.

Ehrm no, they shouldn't.

Originally posted by Arnor2

its not your uber dmg there is a problem dude, more wpnskill= harder to evade, THATS the problem, especially when you need to get in 2 styles for a 7sec stun.

I didnt do any test about evades rates of sbs/infils/ns but im sure the numbers r pretty equal for the 3 classes, maybe with a slight advantage for ns/infils. I would like to ask sbs if they ever noticed "hey! that infil/ns evade like mad!! Double than me".
But asks pallys or armsmen of albion (unbuffed o/c) about evades rates on sbs. They will tell ya they need to use 1/4 of end before land slam after multiple evades, while theyr receiving in return some of the "friendly" Comebacks. Experience here: yesterday i saw how Sala wiped out a tank at amg-mmg road (low RR, but a plate wearer anyways) in about 3 blows (correct me Sala, but think none was a PA...). I asked the guy why he didnt slam n run away n his answer was "I tried it several times but the slam was evaded again n again".
I know something similar happens to mid tanks against infils/ns, but the lower damage we inflict on tanks allows em to easily outdamage us (even easier if they have IP, thats is rr2? ). And I think it should be this way coz assasins r not designed to kill heavy tanks, but anyways, thats my personal point of view.

Obviously, the sbs stun style is much more harder to land than DragonF or DiamondB, but again, they can ripe an enemy only with DFrosts n the casuals 310+ Comebacks.

 

[Arnor]

2L7 for IP i think, but thats once every 30 mins

and you just need to get a dragonfang in. which wont be hard with your better weaponskill before debuffs.

 

[Runolaz]

Oooo....I almost forgot. A DW CB will also suffer from this nerf, cuz basedmg is lowered by 30% too.

On my little gimp CB Lesbos, her cap with Prince 1H sword is 146. With 8LA I get a cap of 96 mainhand, and the become a whopping 67 with mainhand.

hmm...I think Mythic want us to go 2H + 1H/SH lol gif MoB

...btw I encreased LA on Lesbos from 3LA to 9LA and my PA cap went from 699 ---> 702 :chortle:

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by Arnor2
2L7 for IP i think, but thats once every 30 mins

and you just need to get a dragonfang in. which wont be hard with your better weaponskill before debuffs.

Indeed, as i said, DragonF isnt hard to land as its is 1st style after an evade, but...... This is only on paper against minimum skillfull players. A sb who has faced infils/ns more than once, knows that if he see his enemy evading, he will try to get out of view (moving throu the enemy, strafing all the time,...), so its not that easy to land Dragon against this kind of enemies (heh n there isnt nothing more frustrating than trying to land an "easy DF" n getting the out-of-view message, grrrrrr :lol: ).
Again, Frosty Gaze is much more harder to land, no doubt of it.

 

[minime_]

Yeah so Dragonfang is really useless you see, just run through enemies and strafe abit, then you are safe, unless? Its way to easy to counter strafe anyways, any "skilled" thrust infil can do that.

 

[duact]

any inf pls give me your weaponskill unbuffed, myself i got 987 on rr3

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by minime_
Yeah so Dragonfang is really useless you see, just run through enemies and strafe abit, then you are safe, unless?

Note the key phrase of the text: is not that easy.
An enemy who strifes, moves around, moves throu the infils, etc... got more chances (but isnt inmune) to avoid DFang that the odd sb who simply /stick in front of the infil n spams DFrosts.

Originally posted by minime_
Its way to easy to counter strafe anyways, any "skilled" thrust infil can do that.

True, n false. Both enemies moving around, n strifing rise the "Out of view" messages. Of course, if i was a sb i would constantly move around, throu the infil, strife...... to make the infil miss the DFang.

Once again: im not playing devils advocate with DFang. Its for sure an I-win-style if landed, n its far easier to land than Comeback.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos
Once again: im not playing devils advocate with DFang. Its for sure an I-win-style if landed, n its far easier to land than Comeback.

Well it's good to here that you at least try to meet on the halfway. IMHO far to many assassin read the Pete Waterman documnet and go WOW.....neeeeerf, but fail to see this.

"Please keep in mind that this document is solely a comparison of the style lines themselves – individual classes and class abilities are not factored into this document at all."

If you take a look at the numbers provided from the Pete Waterman document pre 1.50 LA/CD/DW are roughly balanced for the figther class, but if someone had bothered to do some test on LA vs CD/DW (Thrust) using the lvl 47 Env, the balance would gravely swing in favour of the NS/INF. Then in 1.50 the groth rates were doubled for LA and we achived ~ balance assassin vs assassin. Unfortunaly the doulbling of groth rates shifted the balance on Zerkers/Merc./BM to the extream.

Even now in 1.60 Dragonfang is the "I-win-button" if it is not purged. As I have stated before "purge" is used for many other things than Dragonfang, and with a 30 min timer it isn't a viable argument. I think Pin once said something about purge beeing a 30 min RR2 SZ beats the crap out of a RR8 INF. If you look at it reversed a RR2 INF isn't on any timer and will beat a RR8 SZ 80%+ of the time if purge is down and Dragonfang lands. Ofc this is very simple view, and none of them are true, cuz 95% of the time the RR8+ wins. The dmg from DF-Hamstring-Leaper-Hamstring-Leaper-RS is however devastating to any SB regardless of RR. Yes, you can strafe and move arround. I usually do agains INF's, but that also makes it harder to land Comeback-Frosty Gaze keep that in mind too.

Then there is RA's. DR adding 3% chance pr. lvl making a significant impact on dmg-overtime...nothing. Viper/AP - nothing. Effects form Dragonfang/Diamondback and Str/Dex weapon --> suffering 1/2 effect from Env poison...not mentioned with a single word other than "not factored into this document". IMHO it is obvious that Mythic hasn't factored in this either. I think most of us could go along with 5-15%, but 30-40% that is simply too much.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Runolaz
Jepp, and with that LA nerf your dragonfand is gonna be nerfed some day. Then you can cry me a river. If this patch goes live with the current LA nerf of 30-35% on style/basedmg, then quess where ppl are gonne look next. Do you seriously think they will give any SB wub...no I don't think so. They will nerf both NS/INF the same way, and Dragonfang is the first to go down baby ....its called balancing lol


I'm not gonna be a SZ, cuz that is dead spec now.

they are hopefully balancing by giving axe's a evade stun style aswell. Dragonfang dont need a nerf, there are better lvl 50 styles imo. ( see Aniliation, LW in hib. etc).


as for SZ being nerfed. GOOD, its way overpowered anyway. i was hit for 358dmg by Creep yesterday(Main only). not Icy, probably from a Comeback.

358dmg is my PA on a buffed sb.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by duact
any inf pls give me your weaponskill unbuffed, myself i got 987 on rr3

1063 at rr9

 

[Vasconcelos]

Agree with u in part.

Take a look at this example (happened me twice yesterday):

Casual encounter with a RR4 sb, both opponents opened fight at time. Both used enervating. He used DFrost, me Tran+Wyv. As usual, i hit hardly for 120 with Wyvern, he returned for 260-285. When he got 3/4 of his hps, n me less than 1/2, DFang popped. I landed the Hamstring+Leaper chain twice. Stun dissapeared with both enemies at 1/4 hps (i got a bit more maybe 1/3). Again he spammed DFrost n me Tran+Wyv (with hamstring as backup).

Result= dead n sb standing.

The point im trying to explain is that, assuming Purge is down for the sb, if u r not lucky to land DFang soon enuff, u r ripped. thats why ns/infils call for a nerf, even with DFang/DiamondBack, sbs hit like HUGE trucks. Maybe 30% is a bit hard reduction, but no doubt ur damage deserves an important nerf.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by froler-mid

as for SZ being nerfed. GOOD, its way overpowered anyway. i was hit for 358dmg by Creep yesterday(Main only). not Icy, probably from a Comeback.

358dmg is my PA on a buffed sb.

That's with a nice Crit of 100-150 probably. As for your PA...lol I know what you PA for and it's not 358. Once in a keep defence in Boldiam Knockout did a PA on me for 1024, that too was with a crit. As for INF/NS PA they do arround 500-600ish on me with 26 TH so cut the crap. I got 290 for Jager main-hand 2 weeks ago, but is average vs 29SL is 170-220 Mainhand on me.

Don't forget mid has +20%

 

[Vasconcelos]

Well, the experience calls for itself. Just check emain death spams at peak times. Its funny how the common death message is:

<Infiltrator> was just killed by <insert sb name here>

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Runolaz
That's with a nice Crit og 100-150. As for your PA...lol I know what yuu PA for and it's not 358. Once in a keep defence in Boldiam Knockout did a PA on me for 1024, that too was with a crit. As for INF/NS PA they do arround 500-600ish on me with 26 TH so cut the crap. I got 290 for Jager main-hand 2 weeks ago, but is average vs 29SL is 170-220 Mainhand on me.

my average PA on buffed sb's, are around 400(yeye, not 350....) too 500. got some very nice 1k+ aswell, mainly on buffed sitting ones....



my point is, Creep's crit on that style is bigger then my cap on my anytime styles.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos
Well, the experience calls for itself. Just check emain death spams at peak times. Its funny how the common death message is:

<Infiltrator> was just killed by <insert sb name here>

mids got the relics and thrust vs sb studded is also a disadvantage?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by driwen
mids got the relics and thrust vs sb studded is also a disadvantage?

It would be if sbs wear studded

Guess u r not one dont ya?

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos
It would be if sbs wear studded

Guess u r not one dont ya?

sorry leather, but same resists.. But you cant say sb's rule the dm's in emain as sbs already got 10% advantage and now +20% dmg. So naturally sb vs infil, the sb will have an advantage

 

[Jarrax]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos
Agree with u in part.

Take a look at this example (happened me twice yesterday):

Casual encounter with a RR4 sb, both opponents opened fight at time. Both used enervating. He used DFrost, me Tran+Wyv. As usual, i hit hardly for 120 with Wyvern, he returned for 260-285. When he got 3/4 of his hps, n me less than 1/2, DFang popped. I landed the Hamstring+Leaper chain twice. Stun dissapeared with both enemies at 1/4 hps (i got a bit more maybe 1/3). Again he spammed DFrost n me Tran+Wyv (with hamstring as backup).

Result= dead n sb standing.

The point im trying to explain is that, assuming Purge is down for the sb, if u r not lucky to land DFang soon enuff, u r ripped. thats why ns/infils call for a nerf, even with DFang/DiamondBack, sbs hit like HUGE trucks. Maybe 30% is a bit hard reduction, but no doubt ur damage deserves an important nerf.

Few points to take into consideration, the sb has 20% melee bonus, the sb leather has good resists against thrust, while your is neutral.
My 5-spec hits nowhere near those numbers on any LA style unbuffed, so im assuming the sb was buffed as well.
And at the end of the fight, he had 1/4 health left.
Sounds fairly balanced atm.

 

[Brevis]

On the point of the pally trying to land slam on the sb....
Slam has NO to hit bonus so it is the same as an unstyled attack...
Ever tried landing a unstyled attack on an evade 7 char buffed or not?

 

[salamurhaaja]

Had a 1vs1 against cplcarrot last night. I was fully buffed that fight.

My weaponskill is 1379 (buffed):
axe 50+17
la 50+17

Here's fightinglog.

Looks like i have to wait 30 minutes to leave mpk so i have purge up.
I really had no chance against him after when he got df in. If I remember right, he had over 50% health left.

DF >>> all styles

Reduce:
20% from those damages (relics)
30%-40% from LA nerf
[[ buffs (+125 str, +125con, +125dex, 75 quick) ]]
What would that damage be?

Remember that give up pa+cd and envenom (base envenom 19) to gain 50 axe+la, 5-spec will do less damage.

That's my reason to transfer CB.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by salamurhaaja
Had a 1vs1 against cplcarrot last night. I was fully buffed that fight.

My weaponskill is 1379 (buffed):
axe 50+17
la 50+17

Here's fightinglog.

Looks like i have to wait 30 minutes to leave mpk so i have purge up.
I really had no chance against him after when he got df in. If I remember right, he had over 50% health left.

DF >>> all styles

Reduce:
20% from those damages (relics)
30%-40% from LA nerf
[[ buffs (+125 str, +125con, +125dex, 75 quick) ]]
What would that damage be?

Remember that give up pa+cd and envenom (base envenom 19) to gain 50 axe+la, 5-spec will do less damage.

That's my reason to transfer CB.

stop posting those filtered logs!!!


cant see if he got lucky with his offhand there etc. (if more guys hitting on u aswell :>)


and yes, Dragonfang rocks when it lands and if no purge up



edit: if i remeber correctly i havnt landed DF on you the last 3 fights we had.....(i tend too feck up, but that a other thing )

 

[salamurhaaja]

Originally posted by froler-mid
stop posting those filtered logs!!!


cant see if he got lucky with his offhand there etc. (if more guys hitting on u aswell :>)


and yes, Dragonfang rocks when it lands and if no purge up



edit: if i remeber correctly i havnt landed DF on you the last 3 fights we had.....(i tend too feck up, but that a other thing )

Well, I like my fights this way better, I don't wanna see other information, 'cos I need to see when I hit my comeback and be ready to hit frosty.
So I'm only iterested when I evade my opponent.

Infils don't have that problem, simply base-attack backupped by df (se we need 3 buttons, while you need less) and hen df is landed you can easily pull critic-chain, which SBs can't do after frosty -> no last evade (like df) or spec points for 44cs.

You can ask cpl about the fight, it was between amg/mmg, I'm pretty sure he remembers it, and yes, it was 1vs1.

But LA-styles AREN'T that uber, why can't you believe it Remi?
I won some, I loose some, why do I need to be nerfed?

I'm nerfed assassin allready whitout pa+cd+(ss). You can pull that critichain and still have df.
I've said many times and I'd say it again -> I'd trade axe-styles to thrust anyday, ANYDAY!

EDIT: I see you killing more than you get killed, like 5:1, why you want to nerf SBs? So yoy and fellow Infils can kill 10:1 us? Is that what you call balance?

 

[asphyxiation]

frosty gaze-comeback-snowblind (or dfrost)
1 - 2 - 3

spam 123 123 123 there is no way u miss a stun even with yer eyes closed (unless u get parried blocked evaded u miss one of these)
just press em fast enough so that u dont get something like
u fail to perform comeback correctly cuz the rl reaction time in 1-2- (3) may be less than the latency u got online with your connection
now concerning the evade styles well yes vs fast weapons u dont get to use comeback-fg after stun cuz most likely there will be a strike in between....unless u evade that 2
but with 50 la...well u can perform in 1.62 snowsquall-icy-aurora borealis as i recently listened...

but on general terms i will aggree in changing in cb

 

[salamurhaaja]

Originally posted by asphyxiation
but with 50 la...well u can perform in 1.62 snowsquall-icy-aurora borealis as i recently listened...

but on general terms i will aggree in changing in cb

Hehe, yes, but that chains damage was only increased to zerkers from 1.62b -> 1.62d
So basically 50 LA isn't worth it.

And I will respec from SZ away as soon as I can, I just wanted to test it.
And I've seen that no LA-nerfing is needed.

 

[Gekul]

If the reductions on the test server are anything to go by, LA will not be out damaging CS. With the exception of doublefrost, which uses a ridiculous amount of end. The amount of damage it does with the reduction is just not worth that amount of endurance.

 

[zico]

Originally posted by salamurhaaja
That's my reason to transfer CB.

If you think thats bad wait until you fight him after respeccing to a crit blade...

 

[Thorarin]

(Dragonfang)

Originally posted by froler-mid
they are hopefully balancing by giving axe's a evade stun style aswell. Dragonfang dont need a nerf, there are better lvl 50 styles imo. ( see Aniliation, LW in hib. etc).

And spec how exactly?
50 Axe/39 CS/34 stealth/34 poison vs 50/50/34/33 on an infiltrator?
And be forced to go 2h all the time so you can land only 1 poison while the infiltrator can land 3 poisons for the price of 1?


Sounds like a great idea, really..
uke:

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by salamurhaaja

Infils don't have that problem, simply base-attack backupped by df (se we need 3 buttons, while you need less)

Actually infils have to deal with 3 buttons:

Tran-DFang
Wyv-DFang

And the main problem i find is that if u want to avoid the server/connection lag (even if it is less than 1sec), u must, as asphix pointed, be fast pressing keys, n it may result in missing the tran n get a "U failed to execute ur Wyverngfang perfectly" message with the end usage.

Originally posted by Thorarin

And be forced to go 2h all the time so you can land only 1 poison while the infiltrator can land 3 poisons for the price of 1?

Currently, sbs can land 2 bonded poisons with ur 1st strike, while infils only had bonded 1.

 

[Runolaz]

What many INF/NS forget when looking at number from LA-dmg is that there are two types of dmg when comparing assassin vs assassin. A SB using LA will rip through any INF/NS if they are not debuffed. When DF is hitting for 250+ mainhand it's simly because the SB is not debuffed or you got in a crit. If you take a look at Sal's Snowblind he does rougly 188 mainhand. A 5-Spec would be arround 150 mainhand. Most Inf with Trust (buffed ofc and at his RR) does 140 when they are debuffed with lvl 47 Env on anytime styles. You then take away 20% from relics. If you substract the relic Sal is doing 157 mainhand when he is debuffed. With 1.62 he is going to do 102 mainhand A debuffed 5-Spec will do roughly 81 dmg haha.

This nerf to LA on SB is so unfair vs other assassins that I can hardly belive it. The groth rates/dmg is still higher on LA vs DW/CD on paper after 1.62, but for assasins when you add the debuff and the fact that both INF/NS swing faster even a SZ is outdmg. In addition he does not have a in-combat-stun like Dragonfang/Diamondback.
A CB with 50Axe/44CS << INF 50TH/44CS. The simple thruth is that SB will become RP-cows for for NS/INF even if Mid has all relics. I can imagine a INF's vs SB with 3 relics after 1.62...omg :chortle:

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Vasconcelos


Currently, sbs can land 2 bonded poisons with ur 1st strike, while infils only had bonded 1.

Aye, but debuff is what kills a SB and the DoT will land sooner or later so it doesn't realy make a difference.