lvl 50 ns spec

[lofff]

Originally posted by Noche
Well lofff, u must know that most of the +stealth items r both lower con and lower bonus.

Not hard to choose between a rogue overlord pendant (1 pierce 1 stealth 7 dex and some quick) and a black diamond pendant with good resists. 8% body and energy and others I tnk.

Resist jewelry > stealth ones.

Learn about NSs a bit more

Sacrificing good jewelry´s a pain, u can´t put striker´s ring if u need more stealth. Tied with + stealth stuff is the worst choice till SC is in.

As some guide mentioned u can reach +11 in pierce with wpns + 5 pierce, but those wpns got LOW effective dps. A crafted 16.5 wpn with 99-100% qual >>>> dropped wpns (but SS)

Till spellcraft is in assuming that u can have both high resists and + skill items´ wrong.

with rrs u wont need that many stealth and envenom itamz... id say u sud learn about ur own class... cos ur preety jimped and closing ur eyes to the facts. Getting 2x SS aint that hard and anyways what u trying to say? ur the one droping ur melee skillz not me, so ur the one needing those +pierce/slash bonus (i could perfectly use crafted stuff)


So again learn ur class, and learn bout hib itamz... ive got 65lw 40parry with lofff (from a 50lw 27parry base) and all my resist are over 10%, specially working on melee ones with 22crush 13slash 16trusth. I mean its not that hard to get good +skill and still god resist.

 

[Noche]

Eh... dude... check a bit and tell me some items with +envenom (in game) beside DF jewel and epic gloves (both +5 and only one of em got good stats) AND with good resists. (just find me ONE item with + envenom beside gloves and jewel actually droppable in game)

Give me +11 in stealth with epic cloak (good resist +3 stealth) and other jewelry which has got +stealth and NOT gimped stats.

+Valor item != + envenom or + stealth item.

Assuming that u got good skill AND good resistance as a NO NS class to define that in hib all classes (specially NS one) can have both good skill and resistance is WRONG.

Ask Ebonn, he´s got good resistance stuffs, and he lower his stealth to 35 ASSUMING that he´ll got 2 soulshades (because they give 2 stealth each which means +4 stealth BUT lower effective dps therefor less damage).

Again look at item database, soon introduced melancholic faeries will have some good resistance drops. So FYI it´s not all same.

And pierce shades rn´t gimped, at least the best shade in game 3.2 millons rps is a PIERCE shade. All comes down to who stun first really, and diamond back has saved my ass MANY times.

 

[Noche]

Just in case... have u fought AS A SHADE vs a slam scout? A slam and 2 shoot can easily got u to 0, hunters r easy though. Ask those scouts if they can kill stealthers.

 

[lofff]

Noche u talk too much.

i do wear 2x +2lw bracers, +4lw total making me cap LW (nothing else of use on em), if u want sth u need to sacrifice sth too. I did nevah told u were gonna get 50stealth 50envenom v.high dmg output and uber resists... but with ranks and pharmage ud get decent resists yet and imo skill>resist. So stop fugging talking bout resists. NSs are supossed to kill fast (stunning etc) and hide not to tank or get nooked by casters or whatever u think u need so many resists for.

And pierce shades rn´t gimped, at least the best shade in game 3.2 millons rps is a PIERCE shade. All comes down to who stun first really, and diamond back has saved my ass MANY times.

i did not said pierce ns are gimped, i said and say the specs u wrote above are "gimped" (sum not that bad tho but many are total gimpness) and ofc bladeshade > pierceshade.
Outthere ud find many ppl who hit lvl50 few weeks ago and are sumwhere betwen 500k-1500k rpz alrdy... from 1.50 on rps are about zergs and /played, so wtf makes u think that ns is best ns ingame?
Again yes diamond back aint bad but id rather do dmg.

Just in case... have u fought AS A SHADE vs a slam scout? A slam and 2 shoot can easily got u to 0, hunters r easy though. Ask those scouts if they can kill stealthers.

no, i did not and i dont need to.

if u attack an scout and dont expect to get slammed omg :/ just dot and disease, that will avoid his shotting or running away.



Just check the fugging facts and respec.

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff


sorry to say its not true and blade ns do higher dmg per swing (and their crits are harder) than pierce ones... just cos there are heavier blades than piercers, albs get sum heavy piercers... hibs dont

So slash gives u bonus against sbs and neutral against infils, while --->both are resistant to pierce<--- ns is only vulnerable to crush... get a good spec and ud keel sum infils and sbs.

ehm check that tables again plz... those tables support slash > trusth...

The reason bladeshades do more damage per swing is becouse of the wepon delay, which on blades is genarally slower ( hib gets a gaurded rapier as its slowest 3.6 or 3.7 ) so you hit for more per hit, pierce shades hit for less per hit ( due to wepon delay ) but hit quicker, so over a period of say 10 seconds the pierce wil do more damage becouse the damage is based on str/dex as you al know whereas blades is str only, shades have inately low str, the weponskill is also affected by this str/dex for pierce and str for blades so although it will be only minor you have a greater chance to miss with blades due to less weponskill,

i assume Loff where you mention crits you are refering to the perf and the other hidden attacks if so then yes you are correct becouse once again its dependent on wepon delay, i cant say i know what the slowest blade in hib is, 3.7 is the slowest piercer, which im sure is only .5 quicker if that than the slowest blade, the thing with using slow wepons to pull off hidden attacks is the delay time between the perfortate and creeping death ( 2nd chain, 6 sec stun ) with a slow wepon quite often you can be slammed or insta stunned/mezzed etc.. before you can get you own stun off now this is not good atall, which is why i prefer to use quick wepons against those sort of class's, its a tradeoff between slighty higher damage on 1st strike or quicker and making sure you get the stun off,

if 2 shades, 1 pierce and 1 blades both used same spd wepons the pierce user would do more damage due to the str/dex for pierce and str for blades thing, as dex for shades is a primary attribute and raisies once a lvl, whereas str is tertairy and raises once every 3 lvls, another thing shade users have in there advantage is dimondback, now its not the be-all-and-end-all of styles but it certainly is nice, gives you at least 3 hits where your opponant cannot fight back,

another thing against blades for shades is due to them being str dependent you should really use + str itams and such-like, most shade orriantaed equipment is very lacking on str ( and con ) so you will have to sacrifice things to raise stealth, aswell as dex and quick being the basis for evading ( which is very important for a shade ) whereas the pierce user has these already in his advantage.

Yes slash gives a bonus vs shadowblades and neutrel vs infils, and pierce is both resistant vs them, the thing is shades arnt suited to killing enamy assains the high damage output and the low hps of a shade puts you at a disadvantage, however if you intend on hunting shadowblades and infils as main targets then yes i advise blades soley on the armour tables, also remeber when you get hit by a str/con debuff venom it will hurt a blades user far more than a pierce user this can be an imortant factor,

As for the fact about checking the armour tables, umm. i see :
minstrels/thanes/warriers/skalds/healers/runemasters/mercanarys/and basically anything in chain as vunrable to peirce, ( which just happens to be my main targets apart from cloth wearers)
i see :
zerkers/hunters/shadowblades/ as vunrable to blades, now if you ask most shades they will tell you that apart from hunters most of these targets are bad choices zerkers especially

all in all if you want to play a stealther hunter blades are better, if you want to be verstitile and be good at killing suport class's pierce is better, ( also remeber that pierce is in tune with shades natural abiltys )

damm this was longer than i intended, ill apoligise for any typos becouse its late and im getting lazy

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff

Getting 2x SS aint that hard

No ? get me one then plz, only been trying to get them since we got DF,

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff
Noche u talk too much.

I did nevah told u were gonna get 50stealth 50envenom v.high dmg output and uber resists...


Just check the fugging facts and respec.

yes noche does talk to much, but i think after all these posts i do aswell

well i can get 50 stealth 50 envenom v.high damage output and uber resists..

as for checking the fugging facts i have done a lot of reaserch into this class and while you are correst Loff about the higher perf damage and more damage per swing ( but slower and less over-time then pierce ) there are a lot of hidden disadvantages to blades some of which i mentioned in a previos post.

when you try attcking that chain wearing healer ( prime target ) or minstrel you will be less effective than a pierce user.

as ive said before if you wanna play a shade who hunts stealthers then blades *might* be better for your style of play, if you want to kill suport class's then pierce *is* better .

in the end its how you want to play *your* character there is no right or wrong way to do it, its your choice. good hunting to you all

 

[old.Laryssa]

:sleeping: @ lofff

I've gone through the forums and a clear voice echo there that pierce > blades. It's
perhaps lower damage but it hits more often.

and regarding the resistances of the weapon types is clearly pierce to choose since
you have MORE killable classes which are vulnerable.

Regarding Blade = 100% STR and Pierce = 50% STR/DEX I can tell you check Luckie's Guide and I'm sure he is well informed and sure of what he is writing.

Stay with your Large Weapon

 

[Noche]

Hehehe need more legion/prince drop stuffs ^^

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by Ebonn


The reason bladeshades do more damage per swing is becouse of the wepon delay, which on blades is genarally slower ( hib gets a gaurded rapier as its slowest 3.6 or 3.7 ) so you hit for more per hit, pierce shades hit for less per hit ( due to wepon delay ) but hit quicker, so over a period of say 10 seconds the pierce wil do more damage becouse the damage is based on str/dex as you al know whereas blades is str only, shades have inately low str, the weponskill is also affected by this str/dex for pierce and str for blades so although it will be only minor you have a greater chance to miss with blades due to less weponskill,

i assume Loff where you mention crits you are refering to the perf and the other hidden attacks if so then yes you are correct becouse once again its dependent on wepon delay, i cant say i know what the slowest blade in hib is, 3.7 is the slowest piercer, which im sure is only .5 quicker if that than the slowest blade, the thing with using slow wepons to pull off hidden attacks is the delay time between the perfortate and creeping death ( 2nd chain, 6 sec stun ) with a slow wepon quite often you can be slammed or insta stunned/mezzed etc.. before you can get you own stun off now this is not good atall, which is why i prefer to use quick wepons against those sort of class's, its a tradeoff between slighty higher damage on 1st strike or quicker and making sure you get the stun off,

if 2 shades, 1 pierce and 1 blades both used same spd wepons the pierce user would do more damage due to the str/dex for pierce and str for blades thing, as dex for shades is a primary attribute and raisies once a lvl, whereas str is tertairy and raises once every 3 lvls, another thing shade users have in there advantage is dimondback, now its not the be-all-and-end-all of styles but it certainly is nice, gives you at least 3 hits where your opponant cannot fight back,

another thing against blades for shades is due to them being str dependent you should really use + str itams and such-like, most shade orriantaed equipment is very lacking on str ( and con ) so you will have to sacrifice things to raise stealth, aswell as dex and quick being the basis for evading ( which is very important for a shade ) whereas the pierce user has these already in his advantage.

Yes slash gives a bonus vs shadowblades and neutrel vs infils, and pierce is both resistant vs them, the thing is shades arnt suited to killing enamy assains the high damage output and the low hps of a shade puts you at a disadvantage, however if you intend on hunting shadowblades and infils as main targets then yes i advise blades soley on the armour tables, also remeber when you get hit by a str/con debuff venom it will hurt a blades user far more than a pierce user this can be an imortant factor,

As for the fact about checking the armour tables, umm. i see :
minstrels/thanes/warriers/skalds/healers/runemasters/mercanarys/and basically anything in chain as vunrable to peirce, ( which just happens to be my main targets apart from cloth wearers)
i see :
zerkers/hunters/shadowblades/ as vunrable to blades, now if you ask most shades they will tell you that apart from hunters most of these targets are bad choices zerkers especially

all in all if you want to play a stealther hunter blades are better, if you want to be verstitile and be good at killing suport class's pierce is better, ( also remeber that pierce is in tune with shades natural abiltys )

damm this was longer than i intended, ill apoligise for any typos becouse its late and im getting lazy

1- yes, blades are heavier weapons than pierce ones... (higher delay...) u wrote 15lines to say what ive been saying all the time. And yes u might have slightly higher weaponskill with pierce ones... BUT slow weapons work better. Unless u get a dmg add or sth ud notice everybody tries to get the slowest weapon available (2handers 1handers...) and thats for any reason.

2- check also the resistant targets using pierce... no albs will b resistant with blades... still wonder why u type chain tanks as ur main targets... sorry but u are way too wrong.

 

[lofff]

when you try attcking that chain wearing healer ( prime target )

healers as main targets? kthxbye

 

[lofff]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lofff

Getting 2x SS aint that hard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No ? get me one then plz, only been trying to get them since we got DF,

noche has two of em and recently hit 50 its all about they way u chose

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by old.Laryssa
:sleeping: @ lofff

I've gone through the forums and a clear voice echo there that pierce > blades. It's
perhaps lower damage but it hits more often.

and regarding the resistances of the weapon types is clearly pierce to choose since
you have MORE killable classes which are vulnerable.

Regarding Blade = 100% STR and Pierce = 50% STR/DEX I can tell you check Luckie's Guide and I'm sure he is well informed and sure of what he is writing.

Stay with your Large Weapon

again ur totally wrong but wtf... up to u.

id stay with my LW thats for sure mb u should ask Ele why hes respeccing to blades having 2x SS atm... wtf is he gonna gimp himself? (hes one of the few gimps who actually are gonna ungimp themselves) U might trusth more the n1 rpcow Exca... (altho that wont b a reason for me)


edit: just wanted to add the following,

1- Wonder what forums are those who keep u clear pierce>blades wo any arguments to support that.
2- With pierce u have more unkilleable targets (resistant) and the vulnerable ones aint killeable (NS CANT KILL MOST OF CHAIN WEARERS.)
3- pierce is half dex based, yes, so slightly higher weaponskill but still worse weapons (bcoz of the pierce weapons nature) on rvr hitting harder/slower per swing is the way to go.
4-Stay with ur staff. (and try not to b so stubborn)

 

[lofff]

wow am kinda pharming my next bw rank here hohoho

 

[Noche]

/Pharm

Btw I can kill most mincers be4 stun wears off with good amount of poisons (aka 4 on em, 2 x DOT), it´s fast, maybe they need more pierce resist... dunno... Even Alpha doesn´t got 15%+ thrust resistance (at least I tnk so)

Beside, stun´s powerful as u sure know, a diamond back after an evade, a couple of hamstring (which usually end up with several chained hammy or at least finishing hammy chain) is V damaging.

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by Noche
/Pharm

hahahah




ps: sorry am tired, got nuff flames on mentalist department.

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff


healers as main targets? kthxbye

If your a shade and you run into a group of mids and you dont go for the healer first your making a big mistake, in fact everyone should go for the healer first

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff


u should ask Ele why hes respeccing to blades having 2x SS atm...

(NS CANT KILL MOST OF CHAIN WEARERS.)

Imo ele went blades as being a ranger the targets he has to face in melle the most are probalbly assasins and blades is better than pierce vs assasins as we have already worked out, where as the targets i most face in mellee are not assasins.

Shades cant kill most of chain wearers, lol what are you on about ask any shade and they will tell you chain wearers = nice target, im not sure how you worked out that we cant kill chain wearers, wel however you worked it out it aint true.

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by lofff
quote:

noche has two of em and recently hit 50 its all about they way u chose

No comment on how Noche got two :touch:

 

[lofff]

ebonn ur taking it wrong... am talking bout soloers... a grouped shade will as almost everybody in group gank first the enemy CCer. Soloing u cant kill chain wearers.

Sorry but u cant solo a healer/heavy tank... so ur again pointless.


nvm id rather go out of this thread... anyways daoc is about to have fun and if u prefer pierce than blades its ur choice.

 

[Noche]

I can kill clerics and healers easy hehe. Last time a cleric tried to kill me with 2 x instas... poor of him

I remember he dd me once... hit me twice.. burnt 2 x insta heal heheheh

I can kill mincers easy as long as they rn´t uber buffed (which most of em r ;<)

 

[Noche]

2 x SSs? Secret

 

[old.Laryssa]

Originally posted by lofff


again ur totally wrong but wtf... up to u.

id stay with my LW thats for sure mb u should ask Ele why hes respeccing to blades having 2x SS atm... wtf is he gonna gimp himself? (hes one of the few gimps who actually are gonna ungimp themselves) U might trusth more the n1 rpcow Exca... (altho that wont b a reason for me)


edit: just wanted to add the following,

1- Wonder what forums are those who keep u clear pierce>blades wo any arguments to support that.
2- With pierce u have more unkilleable targets (resistant) and the vulnerable ones aint killeable (NS CANT KILL MOST OF CHAIN WEARERS.)
3- pierce is half dex based, yes, so slightly higher weaponskill but still worse weapons (bcoz of the pierce weapons nature) on rvr hitting harder/slower per swing is the way to go.
4-Stay with ur staff. (and try not to b so stubborn)

daoc.catacombs.com - they guys there run some math about the dmg output and pierce stay's top.

Ele respecced - good for him, but his blades ain't his main weapon - guess it's the bow ... (unless he is the uber tank ranger who runs up and tanks his enemies down ... can't imagine that).

NS CANT KILL MOST OF CHAIN WEARERS - LOL LOL I nearly killed a paladin in BG3 in full plate and my PA even failed .... uber evade

Can u prove (show some math) that blades are better - guess not?

 

[Cloak_]

(Healer posting on this acct cus i cant b arsed goin on mine atm cus i read this on this one )

Peirce is better for Lurikeen shades, Blades r better for Elf ones, since STR is atribute for blades and peirce is 50/50 dex/str so,,, stfu lofff lol and learn not to flame when ppl r sayin there points of view, and neway, got college

and peirce is better IMO because if u fight a bubbler ur fked with blades as there,,, SLOW so u will miss more often but with peirce u can kill em easier

 

[Ebonn]

Originally posted by N07ABL3
[B
Peirce is better for Lurikeen shades, Blades r better for Elf ones,

[/B]

LOL, how did you work that out ? Elves have the same starting str as luris, so either wep is suitible for either race,

 

[old.Laryssa]

pierce is the way to go

never saw a stun style on blades which is comparable to Diamondback nor any evade based chain

nuff said - kthxbye

 

[old.DARKDANCER]

oops got on the end of this a bit late, dunno how anyone can coment on what a level 50 shade can or cannot solo if they havent actually played one. I,ve mashed many a chain wearer in my time and even a cleric after he self healed twice, the only things I dont have a go at are friars and norse sbs they tend to kill me in 3 hits.

 

[Noche]

Since when elves got high str?

Btw yesterday got Eeny to 30% with IP (aka 170% hp off) plain meleed (he killed vampire in ONE hit and I failed my PA... not paying too much attention ) And I died coz IP wasted on a mincer after killing a stealther.

2 x soulshades simple rulez, and diamond back made a nice job, Eeny lost a nice amount of hps by it (prolly 50%+) while stunned, tbh pierce = diamond back. 6 sec stun = 3 free hits with highest dmg style (beside PA) which´s v good to have.

Till Mythic give us some luv (which will be prolly after SI release with a nice "fix" to nerf us a bit more...) we still better off with pierce IMO... at least all my rvr time I´m yet to regret specced in pierce (of course SSs DO help )

 

[Solarius]

Have to wonder, been reading a few threads where Lofff features....

Is there ANY class he hasn't play to 50th where he doesn't seem to know more about the class than ppl who've played the class to 50th?

Anyway, to the topic in hand.

I have a shade, an elf, and I have to say I'm gonna try and get this spec -

CS 39 (stunning Stab)
Envenom 39 (modifiable to 50, I hope )
Stealth 40 (for SFIV, and mod to 50)
Pierce 29
Blade 29

Probably a gimped shade, but gonna give it a go anyway!

Reason for taking Blade and Pierce to 29 is that, according to Herald, on the grabbag from 30/8/02, Celtic dual damage calc takes both Weapon and CD spec level into consideration, and I'm going to assume for my shade that the same is true for Crit Strike. It says that for Optimal damage, (Weapon spec + CD/CS spec)/2 must be at 2/3 of your level. Add to that, with both Slash and Thrust available to my shade, he has more enemies vunerable, and will only be neutral vs casters and plate-wearers.

Link for grab bag is http://www.camelotherald.com/more/474.php

Given that I don't manage to play 24/7, and my shade is hardly my main (in fact, he's 3rd character, and my mains a mere lvl 43 champ ), I might be back to comment on this spec by, ohh say 2005 )

 

[lofff]

ooooooh gimps united against me ^^

Laryssa, my dear friend:

daoc.catacombs.com - they guys there run some math about the dmg output and pierce stay's top.

Thats prolly sum math working on the higher weaponskill due to the half dex based. So yes, technically pierce dmg output is higher.
But when u go into rvr u need the slower weapon u can get, EVERY FOOKING MELEER will do better with the slowest weapon. And specially shades will crit harder.

Btw ive found on catacombs a cool long reasoning bout elves been the best champs (rofl) Mostly u find only crap or outdated stuff in catacombs. Cool char builder but thats all.

Ele respecced - good for him, but his blades ain't his main weapon - guess it's the bow ... (unless he is the uber tank ranger who runs up and tanks his enemies down ... can't imagine that).

Actually hes boosting his melee skillz in respec, and mainly meleeing in rvr. I told u to ask him not to guess, but u aint doing anything but guessing eh?

NS CANT KILL MOST OF CHAIN WEARERS - LOL LOL I nearly killed a paladin in BG3 in full plate and my PA even failed .... uber evade

We are talking bout lvl50 templates and rvr, not bgs, bgs aint rvr at all. U did not fight against a pally with slam, ip, 75%groupinstaheal (pallys specific RA), fa and ip. And anyways PLATE is resistant against pierce, neutral against slash, so again go slash if u feel like a pallyhunter.

Can u prove (show some math) that blades are better - guess not?

maths will only work in pve my dear, in rvr there are many factors which screw up a plain "dmg over time" calculation.

3 reasons to decide slash or trusth:

1- 100%str vs 50str50dex ---> pierce wins.
2- delay on weapons ---> blade wins. (u have both fast and slow ones)
3- Armourtables ---> blade wins. Again u cant kill chain wearers.

Ive supossed too many things as obvious so will explain it a bit more for u:

-Talking bout standard rvr combats, (preety rare to find lone chain wearers but minstrels but still...) NO lucky ones, fighting against gimps, lows cons or whatever... decent ones.
WARRIOR: 99% of em with slam, ip and purge as base. u die.
THANE: 99%of em with ip, purge, their dds and most of em with slam. u get slammed to death or outmeleed, u die.
HEALER: instamezz, instastun, mezz, stun, instaheals, purge, wall of faith, their cute speed... u get instaed and zerged by his recently called friends or left there standing.
CLERIC: instamezz, instaheals, stun, dds... purge... u might die or left there standing.
MINSTREL: instastun, mezz, dds, SoS, purge, ... u die or left there standing.

oh... no more chain wearers... and slash dmg bonus > trusth dmg bonus against all others... oh well oh dear...

Seriously blades own pierce so far with next patch... u might understand it or not... but those are the facts.


edit:
missed that:
MERCS: with ip, purge, dirty tricks etc etc. u die.