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Lubricador
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- #31
Atm i would like to wait till i see if i can fix groups with savages , i hope you guys understand savages > zerkers by far.
S
skizzz
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- #32
count me in Lubri
Skizorrr 50 supp rm
serenity2, aom2,..., cold capped
Skizorrr 50 supp rm
serenity2, aom2,..., cold capped
M
mid.Divine
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- #33
Diviona 50 savage...Norsebabe
44 h2h 49 savagery rest parry....
SC'd capped etc....
44 h2h 49 savagery rest parry....
SC'd capped etc....
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Astraad
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- #34
Sign me up, Schwarzenkobbie 50 sav, Det3, purge + capped cold
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blueskyrising
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- #35
out of interest on last weeks raid i was hitting her about 9 timesout of 10 at a rough guess so sorry m8 i disagree - well in the case of hitting a very high level mob i deffo disagree but its your call - ill be there if needed
ps... im alergic to nerfed left axe styles
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avonleah
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- #36
Supprunie with sc +purge, rp and serenity.
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vukstinaitor
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- #37
Savage signing up, Ginja.
50 hth 42 savagery
SC gear/capped cold/purge/det 4 all the needed shit.
Also interrested in rolling for the remains for trophy.
50 hth 42 savagery
SC gear/capped cold/purge/det 4 all the needed shit.
Also interrested in rolling for the remains for trophy.
L
Lubricador
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- #38
Another sup runie and we will be rdy , i am pretty sure we can do it without backups .
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Blood
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- #39
you forgot a hunter taahaa
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gododi
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- #40
i got a full supp runie with 6sec pbt called Onima got serenity2 mcl2, and would like the last spot in grp3.
i got cold/slash capped
im gonna roll items for my lvl 50 skald Gododi
i got cold/slash capped
im gonna roll items for my lvl 50 skald Gododi
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garron
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- #41
class: Berserker / norse
name: Garron
sc: capd
rr: 6L5
det4,purge,ip,aug con 3,ap2,tough1,aom1,lw
or
class. Shaman / kobold
name: Benke
spec: 47aug 25mend
sc: almost capd ;o
rr:3Lx
serenity2,mota2,wa2,wh,mcl
im in for backup/standin or whatever might be needed.
name: Garron
sc: capd
rr: 6L5
det4,purge,ip,aug con 3,ap2,tough1,aom1,lw
or
class. Shaman / kobold
name: Benke
spec: 47aug 25mend
sc: almost capd ;o
rr:3Lx
serenity2,mota2,wa2,wh,mcl
im in for backup/standin or whatever might be needed.
B
blueskyrising
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- #42
without a backup group guarding ALL 4 exits to stop the dogs u will fail - same happened last week m8 - u need ALL FOUR exits covered or wipe out
if you do make a backup group do zerkers get in that then as they arent allowed in the main force even tho we hit more than savages
?
L
Lubricador
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- #43
Sure np for me , but you have to understand why i did chose savages over zerkers [ self buffs makes savages hit for more and the tanking skills of savage with healers are great]Originally posted by blueskyrising
if you do make a backup group do zerkers get in that then as they arent allowed in the main force even tho we hit more than savages
C
Cinwin
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- #44
LOL ... if you insist.
RvR savages are awesome .. far outweigh the skills of a zerker. (lev 50 vs lev 50)
PvE ... savages are but playthings of the mobs. Lower weapon skill for a start means more miss's on a lev 80 mob. (And that includes the self buffs)
Test it out if you dont believe me.
Then again its your raid and you can do as you wish - I know I wouldnt be welcome anways. (Blades not FoTM anymore
)
O
Ottar
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- #45
> PvE ... savages are but playthings of the mobs
Well.. not quite As a blanket statement that's just another popular myth. Fully buffed and occasionally healed savage is actually meaner levelling machine than alb necro. I've had both. Neither have downtime other than waiting for respawn and savage both kills faster and can take higher con targets. Only limitation ther is savage has ranged pull on 30s timer and usually kills orange con mobs faster than that
However, you have a point with epic mobs (lvl 60+). Savagery dps buff does not scale well against high armorfactor and with common templates savage weaponskill is somewhat lower compared to other tanks (h2h having ws penalty and 2h specs usually going 44 in weapon). So yes, savage will miss on epic mobs more than other tanks. 2h spec will also get less out of damage adds, h2h specs may have more hits per round but higher percentage of potential damage is without to-hit bonus from styles, which when combined with lower weaponskill will cause even more misses.
As far as tanking goes, savage beats berserkers by far. Last week one of the problems was me not being able to get aggro because I simply failed to take any damage for too long - dragon used aoe, people got hit with it and healers started spreadhealing before I could use IP. Now, two warriors guarding eachother will again outtank a savage/warrior combo. From frontal arc, nothing beats high shield tank. Then again, 2h savage with celerity -will- outdamage a 1h warrior, regardless of occasional misses and bad scaling of dps buff, so 2h savage taunting should be the best aggro holder.
Anyhow, killing the bloody dragon is -not- the problem. At least its not a problem to a degree it would make noticeable difference wether tanks in G2 and G3 are zerkers or savages. Main problems were:
a) People casting stuff outside dragon melee range (ncluding buffing for example).
b) We were unable to catch the bloody dogs.
First one people just have to get right. Last attempt we did was pretty good in that regard, was very little aoe. Just have to do as good next time.
As to dogs getting away..
One simple thing we can do is have MA for in case adds come. 1 dog getting away -is- survivable when tanks assist while killing them off.
To make it reasonably sure no dogs get away, we'd have to have 2 people at each entrance. That means 8 more people. Unfortunately that creates loot problem - dividing 50 stones between 32 people. Having only 2 stones for G4 to lotto for doesnt sound fair - their role is in no way lesser than of people that are hitting the dragon.
Simplest way of solving that would be some people in main groups willingly give up stones for G4. For example, I actually dont have much use for skill respec atm. I'd gladly give up my skill repsec stone for G4 if it means increased chance of actually killing the dragon. 3 more people doing same would mean folks in G4 have 50% chance of getting one stone each. 8 people in main groups giving up 1 stone would mean every man in G4 will get a stone out of it.
Ottar
Well.. not quite
As a blanket statement that's just another popular myth. Fully buffed and occasionally healed savage is actually meaner levelling machine than alb necro. I've had both. Neither have downtime other than waiting for respawn and savage both kills faster and can take higher con targets. Only limitation ther is savage has ranged pull on 30s timer and usually kills orange con mobs faster than that However, you have a point with epic mobs (lvl 60+). Savagery dps buff does not scale well against high armorfactor and with common templates savage weaponskill is somewhat lower compared to other tanks (h2h having ws penalty and 2h specs usually going 44 in weapon). So yes, savage will miss on epic mobs more than other tanks. 2h spec will also get less out of damage adds, h2h specs may have more hits per round but higher percentage of potential damage is without to-hit bonus from styles, which when combined with lower weaponskill will cause even more misses.
As far as tanking goes, savage beats berserkers by far. Last week one of the problems was me not being able to get aggro because I simply failed to take any damage for too long - dragon used aoe, people got hit with it and healers started spreadhealing before I could use IP. Now, two warriors guarding eachother will again outtank a savage/warrior combo. From frontal arc, nothing beats high shield tank. Then again, 2h savage with celerity -will- outdamage a 1h warrior, regardless of occasional misses and bad scaling of dps buff, so 2h savage taunting should be the best aggro holder.
Anyhow, killing the bloody dragon is -not- the problem. At least its not a problem to a degree it would make noticeable difference wether tanks in G2 and G3 are zerkers or savages. Main problems were:
a) People casting stuff outside dragon melee range (ncluding buffing for example).
b) We were unable to catch the bloody dogs.
First one people just have to get right. Last attempt we did was pretty good in that regard, was very little aoe. Just have to do as good next time.
As to dogs getting away..
One simple thing we can do is have MA for in case adds come. 1 dog getting away -is- survivable when tanks assist while killing them off.
To make it reasonably sure no dogs get away, we'd have to have 2 people at each entrance. That means 8 more people. Unfortunately that creates loot problem - dividing 50 stones between 32 people. Having only 2 stones for G4 to lotto for doesnt sound fair - their role is in no way lesser than of people that are hitting the dragon.
Simplest way of solving that would be some people in main groups willingly give up stones for G4. For example, I actually dont have much use for skill respec atm. I'd gladly give up my skill repsec stone for G4 if it means increased chance of actually killing the dragon. 3 more people doing same would mean folks in G4 have 50% chance of getting one stone each. 8 people in main groups giving up 1 stone would mean every man in G4 will get a stone out of it.
Ottar
F
fayle
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- #46
I agree g4 is needed, one could lotto the 2 remaining stones and let them participate in the lotto for the loot.
K
Kirnan
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- #47
Can bring my savage if needed 50h2h 42savagery max cold/slash
also 42 aug shammy for buffing.
also 42 aug shammy for buffing.
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blueskyrising
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- #48
Ottar...
Couple of things to add if i may... I have proposed to my guild that we organise a dragon hunt using a similar method to we used last week but making sure we have enuff ppl would be the only prob but regarding the loot/stones distribution I have already proposed the following in our guild forum which could be used here aswell...............
Only the backup group does not engage the dragon and never come inside the entrances. They MUST stay at the 4 gates with their eyes wide open and alert the entire time. I know the backup job sounds dull but the rewards are nice for what is in effect doing very little altho very necessary
Now... on to the backup group... 1 support group to have 2 ppl on each of the 4 exits
This can be any combination but should have 4 ppl able to tank an orange to 50 mob and a caster to "catch" the dogs and they would work in pairs e.g. pac healer (mez/stun) and any melee'er, shaman (root/dot) and any melee'er, runie and melee'er..... you get the idea... 1 person to hold the dog up and 1 to kill it.
Also my plan does not exclude any non fotm classes and all ppl in the 4 groups would automatically get a stone and the ones left can be randomed so 18 ppl would actually get 2 stones and all 32ppl would get something as detailed below:
25 RA stones
1 to each of the members of the 3 tank groups - 1 to random to the support group
25 single line stones
1 to each of the support group - 17 to random between all the 24
members of the tank groups
Drop loot - lotto to the tank groups
Dragons head on a stick - lotto lol
Thats a shortened version of my ideas and seems a lot more "fair" to everyone involved.
Couple of things to add if i may... I have proposed to my guild that we organise a dragon hunt using a similar method to we used last week but making sure we have enuff ppl would be the only prob but regarding the loot/stones distribution I have already proposed the following in our guild forum which could be used here aswell...............
Only the backup group does not engage the dragon and never come inside the entrances. They MUST stay at the 4 gates with their eyes wide open and alert the entire time. I know the backup job sounds dull but the rewards are nice for what is in effect doing very little altho very necessary
Now... on to the backup group... 1 support group to have 2 ppl on each of the 4 exits
This can be any combination but should have 4 ppl able to tank an orange to 50 mob and a caster to "catch" the dogs and they would work in pairs e.g. pac healer (mez/stun) and any melee'er, shaman (root/dot) and any melee'er, runie and melee'er..... you get the idea... 1 person to hold the dog up and 1 to kill it.
Also my plan does not exclude any non fotm classes and all ppl in the 4 groups would automatically get a stone and the ones left can be randomed so 18 ppl would actually get 2 stones and all 32ppl would get something as detailed below:
25 RA stones
1 to each of the members of the 3 tank groups - 1 to random to the support group
25 single line stones
1 to each of the support group - 17 to random between all the 24
members of the tank groups
Drop loot - lotto to the tank groups
Dragons head on a stick - lotto lol
Thats a shortened version of my ideas and seems a lot more "fair" to everyone involved.
M
Mirae
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- Thread starter
- #49
Originally posted by blueskyrising
without a backup group guarding ALL 4 exits to stop the dogs u will fail - same happened last week m8 - u need ALL FOUR exits covered or wipe out
if you do make a backup group do zerkers get in that then as they arent allowed in the main force even tho we hit more than savages
Aye, Lub if we do go ahead without a back-up group, how do you propose we go about stopping the dogs?
L
Lubricador
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- #50
in the other raid dogs were stopped without problems cept 1 time , also we are having backups guarding all exits , imo dogs arent a problem
O
old.windforce
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- #51
if i may give a tip:
make sure the healers have 40 mend, the full ress is essentiel.
make sure the healers have 40 mend, the full ress is essentiel.
C
Cinwin
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- Thread starter
- #52
Indeed it would seem so - I dont have either (Zerker nor Savage) and rely upon the stories told from fellow guildies - thanks for your reply - quite informative.
As for the raid - I have in the past attended a couple and know how difficult it can be - especially them damn dogs.
Non the less - Good luck with the spanking of the Dragon.
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boomeruk
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- #53
/bump to remind people
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mcitchy
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- #54
Just an idea i'm reluctant to give as i'd have liked to try it myself, but cant make the event.
re: dealing with the dogs
have the savages in g2 use no styles other than the pbaoe speed debuff, then when the dogs pop the should be aggroed by the savages in g2 and not escape the lair. was one part of 3fg dragon raid idea i had and would like to try at some point.
re: zerker vs savages
I have a 50 of each class and i have to say that the zerker is by far superior at the PVE side of things. Both are dwarfs, savage has around 2000 hp fully buffed, whereas the zerk has 2300 and caps str for weap skill, something the savage does not.
The savage is a mana drainer with its self harm regime of buffs and in a dragon raid healers are already stretched for power witout having 6 savages doing themselves 20% damage every 30 seconds. the quad damage everyone raves about is not as common in practice and against a level 80 mob would more than likely miss more than the zerkers left axe.
healer haste and celerity can have zerkers swinging at cap speed, or they can use 2 handaxes to cap swing speed and generate more damage from runie damage add as they would hit more often due to higher weap skill.
IMO using a few more zerker would mean less healing required and more power available for the seers in g2 and g3 to spot heal a member of the MA group. give each healer a /target macro for the MA. Stops g1 healers generating too much aggro.
The plan i have for a DR, may or may not work as it priotises on the control of the dogs over taking down the dragon as fast as possible and also has 4 hunters as g3 (i'll post it to the forum for people to comment on). it was the purple adds from the dog spawn that failed the last run, the dragon was going down quite nicely up to that point.
bored at work, sorry if i talk to much
-Whiskers / Amster / Trixxy
re: dealing with the dogs
have the savages in g2 use no styles other than the pbaoe speed debuff, then when the dogs pop the should be aggroed by the savages in g2 and not escape the lair. was one part of 3fg dragon raid idea i had and would like to try at some point.
re: zerker vs savages
I have a 50 of each class and i have to say that the zerker is by far superior at the PVE side of things. Both are dwarfs, savage has around 2000 hp fully buffed, whereas the zerk has 2300 and caps str for weap skill, something the savage does not.
The savage is a mana drainer with its self harm regime of buffs and in a dragon raid healers are already stretched for power witout having 6 savages doing themselves 20% damage every 30 seconds. the quad damage everyone raves about is not as common in practice and against a level 80 mob would more than likely miss more than the zerkers left axe.
healer haste and celerity can have zerkers swinging at cap speed, or they can use 2 handaxes to cap swing speed and generate more damage from runie damage add as they would hit more often due to higher weap skill.
IMO using a few more zerker would mean less healing required and more power available for the seers in g2 and g3 to spot heal a member of the MA group. give each healer a /target macro for the MA. Stops g1 healers generating too much aggro.
The plan i have for a DR, may or may not work as it priotises on the control of the dogs over taking down the dragon as fast as possible and also has 4 hunters as g3 (i'll post it to the forum for people to comment on). it was the purple adds from the dog spawn that failed the last run, the dragon was going down quite nicely up to that point.
bored at work, sorry if i talk to much
-Whiskers / Amster / Trixxy
F
fayle
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- Thread starter
- #55
bump
T
Tafador
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- #56
Btw its Lubri here [i cant log anymore with the other account] , just wanted to say something :
1)Pple posting their own ideas about how to split loot is nice, but i did choose the way i will do this part , if some one does not have it clear ,ask me directly.
2)If you are trying to arrange another dragon raid try to create a new thread about it .
3)About the ¨Savage vs Berserker ¨discussion : just let it be savage >berserker , no matter if its a epic mob ,a grey con or a chocolate donut , if some1 still does not see it clear msg me in game some day and lets try different mobs in df ,starting on molochians ending on hulks .
Imo if the 3 fg pay attention and do things as it should be we wont have problems , anyways being this my first raid and seeing some pple is not 100% sure and want all exits covered 3 more casting classes : thanes , runemasters, shamans, healers, spiritmasters are welcome to fill the possible backups.
1)Pple posting their own ideas about how to split loot is nice, but i did choose the way i will do this part , if some one does not have it clear ,ask me directly.
2)If you are trying to arrange another dragon raid try to create a new thread about it .
3)About the ¨Savage vs Berserker ¨discussion : just let it be savage >berserker , no matter if its a epic mob ,a grey con or a chocolate donut , if some1 still does not see it clear msg me in game some day and lets try different mobs in df ,starting on molochians ending on hulks .
Imo if the 3 fg pay attention and do things as it should be we wont have problems , anyways being this my first raid and seeing some pple is not 100% sure and want all exits covered 3 more casting classes : thanes , runemasters, shamans, healers, spiritmasters are welcome to fill the possible backups.
M
Mirae
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- #57
lub check ur pm:s
I wont make it, meaning g1 needs an aug/mend healer
I wont make it, meaning g1 needs an aug/mend healer
K
kiria
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- Thread starter
- #58
Lubricator i know this is kinda late to say this but is there a spot left for a pac healer?
my spec is
47 pac
24 mend
11 aug
my spec is
47 pac
24 mend
11 aug
A
Aurilius
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- Thread starter
- #59
\o/
Very nice raid!! She went down quick and in first try.
/salute mids on this 1
Very nice raid!! She went down quick and in first try.
/salute mids on this 1
G
gododi
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- Thread starter
- #60
yes nice raid... well organised to.. gw lubricador