LOS issues at towers

[Alaron]

This may or may not be related to Corr's thread below, but I'm posting this in a new thread as I've been able to reproduce this problem.

Scenario: you're defending a tower from enemies which are below you hugging the walls. You move to the edge of the battlements and take a peek. Someone hits you because you are visible to him. You immediately move back and out of line of sight. However, that same person hits you again and again and kills you. Much cursing follows (usually: "bloody lag casters!").

My first thought was that this is all due to normal client/server lag, but after some testing today I've concluded that that does not entirely explain the problem.

What happens is this: when you move to the edge, especially with speed, there is a good chance you will be seen falling down on the ground from the enemy's point of view. This is due to client/server lag. Now when the enemy locks onto you, he will have line of sight and can hit you. When you move back, however, your enemy will still have line of sight for several seconds (sometimes up to 20 seconds before the client realises that your target is no longer visible, long enough for the enemy to finish you off). This is due to a bug.

I've tested this today with my bb in a very quiet area and was able to reproduce this 100%.

I'll see if I can fraps it to illustrate the problem.

 

[MaditioN]

old trick to kill di3bot wizards camping keeps tbh :]

 

[Brite]

lol

+1 :E

 

[remi]

you did it too me the other day, nice way too reproduce the problem :worthy:

 

[Kari]

Didn't think you'd need to test it Alaron tbh - and how about when you can cast on people who are stationary inside the tower at the lord, that lag too?

 

[Alaron]

Before you scream "bug abuse", it's fairly hard to distinguish it from normal client/server lag in busy areas and the enemy is usually not aware of what exactly is going on.

 

[Alaron]

Didn't think you'd need to test it Alaron tbh - and how about when you can cast on people who are stationary inside the tower at the lord, that lag too?

Doesn't work, as soon as you move inside the structure, LOS breaks.

 

[Kari]

Very easy to distinguish when particular strategies are being used when you see them repeatedly used by the same character regularly. LOS abuse is bug abuse, it's just harder to find a way to prove it. Rest assured should I find a way I will report it & let the authorities decide. It just amuses me that you post this

 

[Alaron]

The reason it's hard to distinguish is that the first hit is almost always due to client/server lag, but the hits after that can -also- be due to client/server lag. It is entirely dependent on how long the target was visible to the enemy. When you are only watching your combat window you won't see the difference between client/server lag and this bug.

 

[Alaron]

Very easy to distinguish when particular strategies are being used when you see them repeatedly used by the same character regularly. LOS abuse is bug abuse, it's just harder to find a way to prove it. Rest assured should I find a way I will report it & let the authorities decide. It just amuses me that you post this

I am well aware that you may have been the victim of me unknowingly (!) abusing this bug.

 

[Kari]

My point is that it is not as cut and dried as you make it out to be, there are certain 'flaws' in some towers designs that allow 'you' to cast through walls/floors etc.
I've been the victim of you 'unknowingly abusing this bug' along with 5 or more other people in my group at the same siege, and at at least 5-10 separate instances that I can think of off the top of my head. How aware you are of this particular 'spam nearest target & get a bloke in the middle of the tower' is really neither here nor there.

I wont labour the point anymore to be honest, I think you know where I'm coming from.

Let us know the results of anymore tests you do

 

[Alaron]

Feel free to report me if you think I've been abusing this bug on purpose. I know I haven't.

And yes, it is as cut and dried as I've described it. I've tested it today at multiple towers in very quiet areas and was able to reproduce this bug every single time.

 

[Alaron]

[...] How aware you are of this particular 'spam nearest target & get a bloke in the middle of the tower' is really neither here nor there. [...]

Nearest target won't pick up enemies who are not in view. You have to have been in line of sight first.

 

[brad]

It's just a bug tbh, happened many times before when i have seen you alaron for example, i might be inside a tower, i go up to look who is at the sides of the keep, i move back and im still being casted on.
Doesn't help that casters get so fast cast times so even thought they may have moved out of sight, you have began to cast the spell just as they have moved and it still hits.




P.S. nerf casting times! And get rid of brittle guards!! ( just a side whine)

 

[Nedo]

Thread creator is the only one who has done it to me in......4 weeks time. Should I take thread serious.....no..cant....

 

[Kari]

Nearest target won't pick up enemies who are not in view. You have to have been in line of sight first.

Yes it will, when you're standing at certain points outside certain towers & the target is at certain points inside and it will give LOS - I've done it myself in a particular tower in a battleground using a caster, and I've seen it done to me & my group by various casters in NF. Read the link I posted in the other LOS thread, specifically the 2nd page iirc that explains it in a little more detail.

Too many people are happy to say "it's just lag/lag casting/ or client/server issues" to cover up LOS abuse/issues and it isn't always. However, because it really is as simple as the caster standing in one or more specific places outside the tower, and the target crossing, or standing in certain specific places inside the tower, the caster then F8'ing, and casting, it's a right bugger to prove.

Now, from a personal perspective I'm sure you already know what I'm talking about as it would appear I've experienced you using it regularly. If, as you say, you dont know what I'm talking about then great - but like Bainshees (and I'm a hib on prydwen) shouldn't cast their cone spells through tower walls, people shouldn't wall hug outside towers in certain spots and F8-nuke people they *know* they cant see & then expect others to believe they were lag running

 

[Alaron]

Thread creator is the only one who has done it to me in......4 weeks time. Should I take thread serious.....no..cant....

Not taking this thread serious means you don't acknowledge the existence of this bug. I'd suggest you go out there with a friend and test it yourself.

I've been the victim of this bug several times (and done the cursing too), so it ain't just me who has been (un)knowingly abusing this bug.

 

[inqy]

how many rps did you get my killing my lvl27 skald the other day by the way alaron? just wanted a hug

 

[Alaron]

Yes it will, when you're standing at certain points outside certain towers & the target is at certain points inside and it will give LOS - I've done it myself in a particular tower in a battleground using a caster, and I've seen it done to me & my group by various casters in NF. Read the link I posted in the other LOS thread, specifically the 2nd page iirc that explains it in a little more detail.

I've just tested this: I reproduced the bug so I had line of sight on my bb standing on the battlements. I deselected my bb and used nearest target: it didn't pick up my bb.

Client/server lag, however, will often result in you moving out of the structure for a second (depending on duration of lag). That is when you can be targetted by nearest enemy.

Too many people are happy to say "it's just lag/lag casting/ or client/server issues" to cover up LOS abuse/issues and it isn't always. However, because it really is as simple as the caster standing in one or more specific places outside the tower, and the target crossing, or standing in certain specific places inside the tower, the caster then F8'ing, and casting, it's a right bugger to prove.

It's not just certain places, this particular bug can be reproduced in any position around the tower.

I am not trying to cover up things here, I'm trying to explain what exactly is going on here.

Now, from a personal perspective I'm sure you already know what I'm talking about as it would appear I've experienced you using it regularly. If, as you say, you dont know what I'm talking about then great - but like Bainshees (and I'm a hib on prydwen) shouldn't cast their cone spells through tower walls, people shouldn't wall hug outside towers in certain spots and F8-nuke people they *know* they cant see & then expect others to believe they were lag running

I know what you're talking about, but I'm afraid your mixing things up, which is no surprise. As I said it ain't easy to distinguish when you are fighting in busy areas.

Hitting someone due to client/server lag is not abuse. You can't expect people to check first to see whether you and your enemy are absolutely lag-free.

Hitting someone repeatedly due to this bug is abuse and I will try to avoid in the future, now that I know what is going on.

 

[Alaron]

Addendum to my first paragraph: I truly do not know the locations around a tower where you can cone through a wall. The reason people stand around those corners is that those are the hardest places for an enemy to get line of sight on them.

 

[Kari]

You are right in the effect you're describing, but there is another LOS bug like I describe. Both are obvious when they're used if you know what you're looking for. I'm just going to pm you with a further thing to check if you really want to so you can see what i mean

 

[charmangle]

A nice post actually mate...

Well Ally! (if you dont mind the short

A nice post. Ofc Ive been the target of your annoying nukes/bolts within the solid structures too.

BUT Im pretty sure this is not bugABUSE...just as you describe it extremly poor coding from Mythic. All casters in this game have used this bug 'unknowingly'. You see a target running through a wall you press f8 get target and before even giving it another thought you throw your nuke and keep spamming.

You dont stop because you cant see your target any more you keep spamming till it says: Your target is not in view.

The point here that is very interresting is that you have actually managed to reproduce it as much as showing that it actually isnt a server lag problem. It takes the server to long to react to moving out of line of sight even without lag. Thats interresting. That suggests that mythic has a timer on the line of sight that is set way to high in my opinion.

Wouldnt mind you fraping it and sending it to GOA for forwarding to Mythic!

/Charmangle

 

[Alaron]

While trying to fraps this I noticed something strange: it seems that the position of your camera actually makes a difference. The bug does not occur when I'm facing upwards, but it does when I'm facing downwards.

 

[Alaron]

Video taken with fraps to illustrate the problem

Apologies for filming during night time. Here's what happens:

1. My bb runs forward, stops at edge and runs backward.
2. My caster sees his lag ghost and starts spamming nukes (a low level DD).
3. This continues for about 13 seconds. The bb is during this barrage completely out of LOS and is not moving.
4. I pan my camera upwards and LOS breaks.

Note the smoke effects at point 4. You can see it for a sec on the ground, right where the lag ghost landed 13 seconds earlier. The smoke is also visible on the battlements, where my bb actually is.

[edit] Video was taken at Hurbury 4.

 

[Spis]

I'm hunting for you Alaron!

And this will not be the last time i get you!

Anyways, hope this problem can be solved..

 

[Alaron]

I'm hunting for you Alaron!

And this will not be the last time i get you!

Anyways, hope this problem can be solved..

Grats for dinging a realm level on me

 

[Glacier]

In my opinion, stop taking the piss at Alaron for pointing this out.

It is a well known issue, and is probably why the casters go bananas every time they see a keep on fire, easiest place to gather some quick rps, and (ab)use the in-view delay to the max.

casters do it, support classes do it, heck, even tanks can throw their weapons ;d

So less QQ and more making GOA aware of the issue

 

[Jupiter]

so let me get this straight, its alright for a "caster" to (un)knowingly do this but its termed "bug abuse" when an animist does it....... /wanders off whistling

 

[Kari]

In my opinion, stop taking the piss at Alaron for pointing this out.

So less QQ and more making GOA aware of the issue

In my opinion read the thread & realise there was a reasonably civilised discussion filled with various barely veiled accusations & hints, with little to no sign of 'qq' or 'taking the piss' as you so eloquently put it

Again if you'd read it you'd realise most people know how this works, know that Alaron & every caster under the sun has used it & further to the effect described by Alaron there's other LOS bugs at towers also.

Its, like, all about raising awareness, maaaan

 

[Samaroon EatsCheese]

how many rps did you get my killing my lvl27 skald the other day by the way alaron? just wanted a hug

how many did you get killing me with 4 other stealthers?