Look's like we gonna get more char slots weeheee

F

Flimgoblin

Guest
all depends what they do to improve it...

currently level 40-50 is camping three different sets of monsters for hours on end for the majority of people...

if they put in more things to do from 40 to 50 it might not be so bad (and made them more appealing to players...)

The explore/exploit thing works well at low levels... you go kill one thing, you find it's good, you kill it for a level! it's now crap xp, you have to explore some more...

at high levels you can kill the same thing for level upon level upon level... no impetus to explore, noone else wants to explore, so noone does. You need a group to get good xp - it's damned hard to get a group to leave lyonesse (tried and tested) for pastures new...
 
N

Nala Lionne

Guest
I'm in complete agreement with Trine's post.

Well said .. etc etc :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
D

Danya

Guest
If you made level 50 take 5-10 days people would leave even moe quickly than they do. Contrast the speed of DaoC, where level 50 in under 20 days played is far from uncommon, to everquest where it takes about that to do level 59-60. Which has more players? Which has more people that have stayed with it for a long period of time? The answer to both is Everquest (according to a survey over 60% of people that started EQ when it came out still play, I'll bet DAoC's number is much lower after a few years). If you make the levelling experience that easy, you basically make an FPS with swords, people have no attachment to their character, in short, they are far more likely to just delete it and leave.
 
O

old.Revz

Guest
I suppose it depends whether you consider this a role-playing game (even in the loosest sense) where the development of your character means something over time or Pokemon where you quickly train up a variety of creatures and then take them out to do battle. At the moment it is heading more towards Pokemon than it is towards role-playing. Then again I suppose Pokemon sells well.

That is what I mean by lowest common denominator.
 
J

Jexa

Guest
Also Revz, it's much easier to make the game easier and Pokemon like, than it is to add content to make the struggle you put in feel .. worthwhile.
 
O

old.Revz

Guest
Indeed Nala. That is a complete cop out on behalf of Mythic which is a shame :mad:
 
O

Orin Askhammare

Guest
Originally posted by old.Revz
I suppose it depends whether you consider this a role-playing game (even in the loosest sense) where the development of your character means something over time or Pokemon where you quickly train up a variety of creatures and then take them out to do battle.
Click to expand...

Well at the moment the development of my character halfway between 40 and 50 doesn't mean much. The only redeeming value is the bright and shiny level 50 at the end of a very very long tunnel. In the mean time I'm just adding levels and higher versions of the same spells. I even got my last weaponstyle already. Going from 40-50 at the moment means you can grind. It doesn't require you to get any better as a player, doesn't give you anything new and "forces" you to kill the same things over and over again if you want it to be over as fast as possible. So it's not odd that people want it to be over ASAP so they can compete in RvR. I see what you're saying though, and one alternative to shortening the time would be a drastic (and I mean drastic) improvement in 40+ content. But still with slow level progression you'd feel as if you're not progressing a lot. There is no reward for playing better, just for putting in the hours and grinding.

As far as role playing game... The roleplaying or equivalent value for me mostly comes out of interacting with people. Although interaction gets less as one by one people's brains shut down in Malmohus :)
 
O

old.Revz

Guest
Well nobody forces you to do tanglers and such (don't know what Mids do in that level range sorry :mad: ). Admittedly the content is crap but a lot of the reason you get people exping down in Lyonesse is because it is so safe. Go exp somewhere dangerous, it is fun :) I remember doing the catacombs in beta when there were perhaps 16 people on the whole server of our level range. It was terrifying, exciting and the exp flew by because we were breaking new ground. If there were a couple of high level dungeons with a good exp bonus but comensurate risk then I'm sure they would be popular.

Pre-kunark EQ you found all the high level guys exping in dungeons because it was faster if you were competent. The ones who hit 50 a year later did so by "safe" outdoor grinding. Admittedly EQ had the added fear factor of impossible CR inside a nasty dungeon if you screwed up so players tended to be better :)

Yes grinding 40-50 is crap as it stands but that doesn't mean making it easier is the way to go. Add 10 levels, make it harder but then provide a lot more content to do it on and a better risk v reward.
 
J

Jexa

Guest
Originally posted by old.Revz
Indeed Nala. That is a complete cop out on behalf of Mythic which is a shame :mad:
Click to expand...

Aye, but what can you do, this is what they've given us :D .. I mean ... Pokemons not that bad ... is it? ;)
 
J

Jexa

Guest
Originally posted by Dannyn
That's Revzachu actually ;)
Click to expand...

Awww, damn. I thought I was TEH POKEMASt3R!11

/me hands her Pokecrown to Danyan
 
O

old.Trine Aquavit

Guest
Dannyn,

(Sorry, this turned into a long post and is directed not at you, but at a couple of points you made :))

First, DAOC isn't EverQuest. I left EQ to play DAOC for on reason: RvR. In pretty much every aspect of PvE EQ is a better game - more geography, more quests, more content, more dynamics, better crafting, more events, different servers, more ph4t l33t. There are only a few small areas of PvE where DAOC really beats EQ. In pretty much every other area of PvE DAOC is EQ-lite. Those that like the PvE levelling aspect of a game should go to EQ (or AC, UO) as it's got a lot more to offer.

Where DAOC wins is RvR: large-scale, organised (sometimes) PvP. And it's here that DAOC has the potential to keep people interested (and subscribing) for long periods after they've got to 50.

Had Mythic been ballsy enough to totally focus their enhancement efforts on RvR instead of some extra PvE content then there would be plenty of stuff for level 50's to do. And bring in the possibilities of getting several characters to level 50 for great RvR and you've got something to keep people subscribing.

And here's the rub: the game that can offer the best large scale PvP will keep interest far better than the game that can offer the best PvE, for the simple reason that human opponents will always be able to give a better, more varied challenge than any mob can.

Secondly, is DAOC's PvP model is good enough to keep long-term interest or is it just a "FPS with swords"?

I kind of see DAOC is like a fast-paced card game in a 3d environment. In any encounter each player has a distinct set of cards (skills, spells, RAs, etc), that can effect the outcome. The environment (position, range, speed, stealth, LOS, items, timing) effects the cards you play. The objective is to play your cards in the right order to defeat your opponent, using the environment to enhance their effect. For example, I was attacked by Derric in DF a couple of weeks ago. Derric, being a skilled player with a good knowledge of his skill set and the best 'runs' to make had the better of me (with a twist). The sequence of cards went something like this:

Derric PA's
Derric Poisons
Derric Diseases
...
I insta mez

I die from last hit of poison. (to be continued)

I was o\/\/n3d.

Now, there are two things that came of this. First, I'm not yet a very good player, but I have thought about what I should have done in that situation, and what sequence of cards I should have put down, e.g.:

Derric PA's
Derric Posions & Diseases
I insta mez
I heal
I cure disease
I cure poison
I attack
I insta stun
I heal
I attack
...
etc.

Now, I was 10 levels lower than Derric so I probably wouldn't have won a 1-on-1 whatever cards I played :(. Which brings me to my second point: what happened next...

Derric PA's, etc.
...
I insta mez

I die from last hit of poison.

Hrorvaig (a hardy lvl 47 Warrior from my guild) and another realm-mate turn up, and see Derric standing still in the corner of the room :).

They play their cards and Derric plays the rest of his. Derric dies. Net outcome: A few RPs for Derric, a lot of RPs for Hror :). I may not be a great player, but I was good enough to get that mez and help a (somewhat) positive outcome (I know that I was helped by the fact that I was in DF and his attacks were reduced, but hey, I used the environment :)).

The (rather long winded) point of this is that DAOC has a basic mechanic that works pretty well for multi-player PvP. It isn't one set of cards against another set of cards, it's multiple sets of cards against multiple sets of cards. The classes, specialisations and roles that the game provides makes any encounter complex, tactically varied, and interesting, as does the importance of teamwork and communication. It's actually a better mechanism than a FPS (which has variations on about 3 cards: shoot, blow-up and, in some cases, heal). It started off pretty raw, with some overly powerful starting cards like AE-Mez and PA-Grey-Con-and-Stay-Stealthed ;), but these are being addressed.

I think DAOC can survive alonside the big PvE games by expanding on the RvR: further balancing, adding skills, adding interesting RvR environments, adding new goals, combatting the zerg, etc.

To sum up: EQ is a content-based PvE game which retains its subscribers by providing PvE content, as such it suits slower levelling. DAOC is a RvR-based PvP game which will retain its subscribers by providing RvR content, as such it suits faster levelling.
 
O

old.tRoG

Guest
ahem, yes, lvling from 45-50 in extreme boredom might get rid of the 'less dedicated' - but WTF?!

why the hell would you want to get rid of these 'less dedicated' people?

just because they arent prepared to sacrafice their life for a game it doesn't mean they are a worse player than you or don't deserve to be lvl 50 and enjoy RvR.
 
U

Uncle Sick(tm)

Guest
I feel cheated... all the good Pokemon jokes have been made already...*sighs*

I have to say something on topic actually! ;)

I am agreeing with Revz here! Don't look shocked now...:D
Levelling is part of the fun/challenge - if it's too easy, it get's (very) old after a short while.

"Wee! My last alt hit 50 in 10 days played- I AER TEH ROXXOR!!"... pfft. That's pants...

Everyone wants to go RvR? What about the battlegrounds? There are 3 of them afaik...
But no one can be arsed to go to the 25-29 and 30-35 because everyone wants to go for the 'grown-up' RvR.
No one realises, though, that the RA's you earn in the BG's will greatly boost your PvE.

I want to have fun with DAoC for a very long time. I love the game... that's why I have seven alts and a main that has yet to hit the magical 40.

... rant over! :)
 
O

old.Revz

Guest
Trine has a very persuasive argument but my point isn't just based around levelling speed :)

To use the card analogy : All of the time and effort I have put into my character, over and above that which someone who gets to 50 casually has, should mean that I have more cards to play in a fight. The number of options I have and the relative power of them should, to my mind, reflect how much effort and work I have put into developing my character.

Yes you can play multiple characters if you want but you should still reward the guy, like me, who spends all of his time on one character and gets him to the utter peak of his class in the best gear available though. When I go into a fight the fact that I have been level 50 for months, leading one of the strongest guilds on the server and spending a lot of time farming items should mean I have more cards to play than a lot of other people.

This isn't the case though and that is what frustrates me. It gets even worse with the attempts by Mythic to close that small advantage I do have on the casual player at the moment. Once you get to 50 the steady increase in power comes to a grinding halt. There is virtually nothing I can do to differentiate my cleric from another casually played cleric who has finally hit 50, gotten his epic and wields a crafted weapon.

As I said before, the power of your character is the same after 1 month as it is after 1 year. There could be minor differences but even wearing Legion drops and wielding weapons from the Grand Chancellor I'm not much better than any other level 50. It doesn't really seem fair that you are clamped into a mold like that just because the guys who play casually want to be able to hit 50 and know they can stop trying because no one else will be much better. The game should start at 50, not end like it currently does only for you to level up another character :mad:
 
O

Orin Askhammare

Guest
Thank you for that insightful comment SFXMan.

Ahem. On to the meat :)

I can really and honestly sympathise with Revs' comments. I'm usually on the receiving end but I can undertand his points. At level 50 it does all flatten out. But I think this was (somewhat) by design. Aside from class balance issues the thing that determines your success most in 50+ RvR (I'm still working on getting there but close) is your playing skill. I've been killed in situations where I didn't have a chance, but there have also been situations where I've lost simply because I did something stupid. If it was forever about who could put in the most time into his character would alsways be a select few with time on their hands who would hand everyone their ass. You could be a smart as hell player with a PHD and whatnot and be able to outwit your opponent on every level but it would be no use since the other guy out-equips-resists-whatever you on every level. At some point the brain factor has got to kick in imho. Especially if you're competing against other players. You can talk about epic armour and the like, but while I'm no expert I don't think that the difference between good barfog equipment and epic stuff could turn being the king into being the gimp. Also the amount of rps someone who has spent a lot of time improving his char post 50 has aquired should help tip the balance a bit also.

I'm sure no-one feels that the guy who can spend every waking hour on mashing style buttons should automatically be entitled to the rvr-crown. Being a force in RvR requires a brain or leadership capabilities and the time it takes to get to level 50. A lot of people who are having a nightmare getting to level 50 might feel that denies them the chance to prove that they are indeed smart players.

People are not asking for instant level 50, they are asking for a level grind that is more appropriate for people who play often but can't spend 8 hours a day on server. Yes, it will be a breeze for people who can manage to PL a character to 50 in 10 days, but seriously those people aren't the norm. It will be right for most people and the slowbies might eventually make it to level 50.

Making hell shorter is probably not as good a solution as turning hell into heaven, but as I said earlier, surviving 40-50 hell doesn't make you a better player, it just proves you can grind and thus imho doesn't say anything about your playing skill.

Like Trine said, this isn't EQ. It was never meant to be. Maybe it's more Quake-ish, but it isn't Quake by a very very very long shot.

It's all about how long you want people to grind before they can become a competitor. Seeing as you think playing time should give you an edge you might actually advocate increasing the time to level 50 so you can keep it? If you're scared about people getting close to where you are, what kind of competition are you really looking for if any? Or do you even WANT competion? Just something I'm wondering about. Do you like sitting at the top of the food chain unchallenged or do you want to have to fight for it?

Aside from this my main reason for wanting a slighly faster leveling curve is still me wanting to get a few different classes to high level at some point in time. Right now I simply dread the moment my Shammy will ding 40.
 
S

SFXman

Guest
My post just answered the damn topic. This aint about the entire patch according to that and definately not about anything else besides those.
What else could I sat besides that it is a very good thing? Since levelling at 40+ will be made easier we will now have more time to play alts and to give these extra slots was only fair... with SI coming and all.
 
U

Uncle Sick(tm)

Guest
Awwwww! Cute! SFX is getting pissed off!!
:fluffle:
 
G

Generic Poster

Guest
There is nothing special about hitting lv50, there's more cause for remorse at all the time spent watching some brainless mob go 'ugh, ugh, waaaah, ugh, ugh, aaaaargh'. Just what the hell is XP'ing about! a 7yr old could get to lv50, they only need to know which buttons to hit and when to hit them.


How do you define a DAoC noob?

The only RvR I've done is in Thidranki with my Infiltrator, and I loved it!
Last night I hit lv40, so after my Epic I nipped into Emain to see what all the fuss was about. well... I saw something:

20 Mids at Amg, just over 20 Albs at apk. I'm an infil and I love spying, so I'm hiding close to the amg and I see Mids rush the Albs and walk all over them. Time passes, Albs port over and are stronger then ever. woah! there's even talk of organisation and you know what... Albs are gathering at the apk and preparing to 'zerg' the mids'.

It looks good Alb side, but what's this?! small group of Albs can't wait for more then 3 minutes and are heading to the amg. 3 mins later, spam Alb death messages.

Oh no! another small group of Albs heads off for the amg, to join their fallen comrades.

Spam death messages.

Yet more fools venture off into the inevitable.



ok, so I'm starting to wonder why these lv50's don't have the sense to co-operate. I wonder off to scout the road to the amg and upon reaching, I see a smaller group of 10 or so Mids. The doors open for what looks like re-enforcements, but that kobold looks a little suspicious, hmmm, it's a freakin Lurikeen!

2 groups of Hibs pour through the amg, and give me a nice show to watch. I've told the Albs at the apk about the fight and.. wait for it...

THE ZERG IS GO! 17Albs in Emain and everyone of them in the cg is zerging on turbo speed!

Only a few mids left, the hibs have done a good job and are cleaning up when I see the Alb Zerg coming over the hill! Almost all Hibs con red to me but I find a yellow celt and decide to seal his fate.

I'm moving in at stealth speed, Albs behind my zerging in full force at turbo speed. If all goes to plan, I connect my PA when the Albs open their attack...


This so totally rocked. Out of 17 Albs, four, yes four out of seventeen butt-fucked Albs 'zerg' 7 Hibs, I didn't even get to open my PA as the HUGE force of Albs died before even reaching the Hibs and I was spotted by a red-con.



From the reaction I observed in the cg, I get the impresion this wasn't a unique incident. Infact, it seems like it's fairly common for high level Albs to fuck up like this.


Now explain to me why people who levelled to 50 early on aren't these 'noobs' you speak off? Are you suggesting people can play worse then this?

Thidranki was damned good fun, we co-operated, we planned and kick-ass. No failure was due to our lack of team work. But hey, we were level 24's without dragon drops and uber-buffed skills so we had to be noobs. And we only worked together because of our noobiness, and when we reach level 50, we will be noobs for co-operating in RvR. Because only people who levelled 50 within 2 hours of the server going live deserve any kind of respect, because they obviously aren't noobs.


Look again, alb is full of 'noobs' at all levels. There is no code which stops noobs from grinding to lv50, hell, more decent people drop out because of it.


Getting to 50 is just a matter of time, people like myself are short on time so have to make do with what I have. If someone thinks I'm a 'noob' for hitting lv50 several months after the servers went live, that's not my problem.

If everyone can get the best, or near best items in the game, it's not because they're 'noobs', it's because Mythic are slackers and haven't added enough content to the game.


Of course, everyone wants to be unique in some way, be it through items, spec or whatever. But what really helps someone and seperates them from the 'noobs' is personal skill - something which cannot be found, bought or 'lewted'.


In Thidranki, I knew the good SBs from the bad ones(noobs?). Were the good one equipped better? Did they do more damage? Did they have a better spec? no. They played differently and that is what made them better. Individual skill.


Making lv41-50 easier will probably bring more potential into RvR, then noobs.





Personally, I think it's a bloody good idea, with 8 char slots and instant Thidranki-ready characters. Do you know how much fun that equates to?

Although I suspect it's a sly move on Mythic's part. As it will renew the game for veteran players and keep them subscribing.

/one wonders what was really causing the 'bug' for 4 character slots.



*All references made to Albion are for: Albion, Prydwen.
Beware ye foes of Albion. The terror of Thidranki shall rise once again!
 
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