News London fire-brigade strike on... Bonfire night

[rynnor]

I got this from the FBU website but its not super concise:

FOUR OUT OF FIVE FIREFIGHTERS VOTE FOR STRIKE ACTION
HUGE TURNOUT, AS 79% TAKE PART IN BALLOT

 

[Wij]

what they won't deal with is the deliberate rubbish fires set by kids, or the stolen cars that are set on fire by thugs, or the multitude of bonfires that people set and then neighbours call in

Yes. Nothing bad could come of those.

 

[Gray]

Didn't firefighters strike a few years ago? Albeit maybe not on bonfire night.

I seem to recall that when they did, the army was drafted in (i think) to cover any fires.

I certainly recall seeing the old-style green fire engines around my way

 

[Gumbo]

All it'll take is one preventable death and public opinion will swing completely against the firemen, those kids that chuck stones at them will be seen as having the right idea.

That would of course assume that they had public opinion behind them to start with.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Personally I think modern bonfire night is a pussyish emasculated waste of time run by health and safety nazis.

Clearly you've never been to Ottery St Mary on Bonfire night Not saying the H&S nazis wouldn't like to stop it, just that they still haven't succeeded.

RB

 

[cHodAX]

Didn't firefighters strike a few years ago? Albeit maybe not on bonfire night.

I seem to recall that when they did, the army was drafted in (i think) to cover any fires.

I certainly recall seeing the old-style green fire engines around my way

Yep, 2004 I think it was. The government has sold all the Green Godess fire engines off now iirc so we are rightly fucked if the whole brigade ever go on strike. Shortsighted but when was British politics ever any different? They think 4-5 years ahead max, cnuts the lot of them.

 

[Turamber]

Bonfire night was originally a celebration of the King's delivery from "evil", but it soon became a chance to vent one's spleen against Catholics, and the Pope, who was the original "Guy".

Its a 400-year-old relic, and I think a very important link to our history. Long may it continue.

The bonfires were originally part of the Celtic festival of Samhain. Ancient and pagan. Whether it be based on paganism or a party celebrating somebody being hung drawn & quartered I don't think it has much place in the 21st century.

 

[Sparx]

I take it you dont support Christmas either then?

 

[Cadelin]

The problem with strike action is that there is rarely very little correlation between them and the actual working conditions.

The only people that strike these days are the people who can cause significant inconvenience to other people. Its no longer a final resort of desperate workers, just a bully tactic.

 

[DaGaffer]

The bonfires were originally part of the Celtic festival of Samhain. Ancient and pagan. Whether it be based on paganism or a party celebrating somebody being hung drawn & quartered I don't think it has much place in the 21st century.

I'd say you're opening a proper can of worms there matey. Most Christian festivals are built on hijacked pagan ones. And by the way, Halloween is the modern successor to Samhain (which probably explains why its such a big deal in Ireland), not bonfire night. The UK is just in the unique position of having two events within a week of each other because of a historic coincidence.

Oh, and we can't celebrate someone being hung and quartered but if they're nailed to two planks of wood that's OK?

 

[Gumbo]

If it came to it, ie a total nationwide walkout of firemen for an extended period of a few weeks, not just a day here and there, then I think, with a Tory government not beholden to the unions, then the fire stations and equipment could be manned by service personnel.

There are some very highly trained firemen in the RAF and plenty enough HGV drivers and squaddies to provide a decent level of cover.

Firemen do an exceptional job, and are well rewarded for it. I have nothing against firemen having a second job, but that should fit in around their primary job which is being a fireman. If more modern practices mean a change to their shift patterns and that means they might lose their second jobs then sorry, that's the choice they have to make.

One of the issues in the last strike was whether firemen on their night shift should have to undertake maintenance and training when not on calls, instead of going to sleep until the bell rang. What other job can you possibly get paid to sleep?

This is simply modernisation of the fire service to improve the service offered to the public. The clue should be in the name fire service. It's not a service to the firemen, it doesn't exist purely to employ a load of people on the best terms to suit them. It exists to serve the communities who pay for it. The rest of the country has accepted these same terms which the London firemen are now wanting to strike over. The rest of the country has just got on with it, it's saved money and made a better service.

 

[Cdr]

One of the issues in the last strike was whether firemen on their night shift should have to undertake maintenance and training when not on calls, instead of going to sleep until the bell rang. What other job can you possibly get paid to sleep?

The RAF, Navy and Army? Airline pilots? Cabin Crew? Doctors on call? All sleep while 'on the job'. There's probably many more.

Also, define 'well rewarded'. We talking about the fireworks fired at them, the needles left on door handles as traps, the cars set on fire down alleys as a come on, the broken windows on the fire engines from bricks? And their legal inability to protect themselves or their equipment from attacks.

And isn't it also called the Police Service? Can you imagine the headlines if the firebrigade gave the same level of service as the police? Fire engines turning up 4 hours late to a house fire, not arriving until 2 days after a car crash.

 

[Wij]

The RAF, Navy and Army? Airline pilots? Cabin Crew? Doctors on call? All sleep while 'on the job'. There's probably many more.

It's their employers' time. They are being paid for that time. If the employer is happy for them to sleep that's fine. If they'd like them to do some training then that's fine too.

 

[Turamber]

I take it you dont support Christmas either then?

You'd be right. Being a miserable bugger I also object to the amount of debt people get into to buy presents they can't afford and provide stupid amounts of food and drink whilst 1/3rd of the world is starving.

Both Christmas and Halloween/Bonfire Night are rather incongruous to 21st century realities and outlooks.

 

[Raven]

It is if you still think Christmas has anything to do with religion. I, like a lot of people see it as a time to be with friends and family and reflect on the year and a good excuse to eat and drink lots of stuff you wouldn't normally do, Sky fairy nonsense doesn't come into it. Presents are way down the list, in fact I find it a pain in the arse to think of something I want anyway, last year I got new kitchen equipment, pots and pans and the like because I just happened to need them at the time.

 

[Gumbo]

The RAF, Navy and Army? Airline pilots? Cabin Crew? Doctors on call? All sleep while 'on the job'. There's probably many more.

Currently, London firefighters work two nine-hour day shifts (9am–6pm), then two 15-hour night shifts (6pm–9am), followed by three full days off.

I don't think that the RAF, Navy, Army etc get away with being expected to work 2 days in every seven, and sleep for a large portion of another 2 before having 3 days off. Most Army, when not actually fighting, is pretty much Mon-Fri. They sleep in their downtime, usually at night when not on exercise. Why shouldn't firefighters sleep when they're not actually at work, like the rest of the world? Also, try being on guard duty in the army and falling asleep. Colchester isn't a nice place to spend much time I understand.

Also, define 'well rewarded'. We talking about the fireworks fired at them, the needles left on door handles as traps, the cars set on fire down alleys as a come on, the broken windows on the fire engines from bricks? And their legal inability to protect themselves or their equipment from attacks.

Nursing is a far more dangerous profession and is paid at roughly half the rate.

For what it's worth, personally I think firemen should be encouraged to turn their hoses on people when attacked or intimidated.

And isn't it also called the Police Service? Can you imagine the headlines if the firebrigade gave the same level of service as the police? Fire engines turning up 4 hours late to a house fire, not arriving until 2 days after a car crash.

I'm not entirely sure of the relevance. The police are underperforming, so unless we give in to the fire services demands, they should underperform too?

I remember having all these arguments with you last time too Rob, only on irc then so it was much more immediate. It's just a shame that the rest of the countries fire services came round to a more modern way of doing things, but London are still dragging their heels.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Interesting enough, the discussion has gone to religion and fireman work expertise in...*looks at wrist*...4 pages or less. And they say i ruin threads and shouldn't tak about things i don't know about

 

[Tom]

The bonfires were originally part of the Celtic festival of Samhain. Ancient and pagan. Whether it be based on paganism or a party celebrating somebody being hung drawn & quartered I don't think it has much place in the 21st century.

No, people were encouraged to light bonfires and celebrate the King's survival, immediately following the plot's discovery. That's where the tradition comes from.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You'd be right. Being a miserable bugger I also object to the amount of debt people get into to buy presents they can't afford and provide stupid amounts of food and drink whilst 1/3rd of the world is starving.

Then you surely don't celebrate birthday, easter, weddings, are not married yourself, don't accept any gifts/give any gifts and so forth, right?

You also only eat what is the bare minimum for you, and send food aid to starving nations each week?

To start with

It's as easy as shooting enviroment hippies in a barrel.

 

[Reno]

No, people were encouraged to light bonfires and celebrate the King's survival, immediately following the plot's discovery. That's where the tradition comes from.

That wouldn't have happened to coincide with a crackdown on bonfires at any other time? If so, that's some classic usurpting/subverting/however-you wanna-call-it action.

 

[DaGaffer]

That wouldn't have happened to coincide with a crackdown on bonfires at any other time? If so, that's some classic usurpting/subverting/however-you wanna-call-it action.

Doubt it. There's a long English tradition of setting bonfires for any and every reason; they did it to celebrate the Armada's destruction as well.

 

[Raven]

Well, everyone loves a good fire.

 

[Ch3tan]

Hey guys; this caused a stir with some of my circle of friends on facebook - one is a firefighter. This is what he had to say:

my mate the firefighter
Guys why do you have such strong opinions on something you obviously know nothing about based on what you've heard from the government run media. That's where the public have it all wrong listening to the media. So you know, just over a month ago all 5500 firefighters were informed that their contracts of employment would be cancelled and they would be sacked if they refused the new contracts on offer. Contracts that have changes in shift times and more importantly many changes to terms and conditions which will ultimately lead to the closure of fire stations. Just to clarify your view that this is about second jobs, i dont have a second job and im striking....? Plus, my maths might not be right, correct me if I'm wrong... If firefighters agree to 12 hour shifts 8pm-8am (like they won't us to do) doesn't that mean they'll have more time to part time as they've got 12 hours before their next shift instead of of 9 hours that they currently have!? Therefore wouldn't we all be jumping at that offer!? We don't get paid during these strikes and obviously our friends and family are also put at risk. It's simple really, take away the threat of the sack and no more strikes so i guess it depends who you won't to blame for the strike, the firefighters who are trying to take a stand and not be bullied into something that will be detrimental to all of us or the fire brigade commissioner and politicians who won't take the gun from our heads..... (plus we know how honest politicians are)...

No firefighter wants to go on strike, especially on bonfire night. We were on strike on sat and that barely got any media coverage. This is a time critical situation as our contracts will be ripped up on the 26th of november. Now that bonfire nights been mentioned we hope the brigade management take it seriously and not allow it to get that far. The final decision on whether we go on strike is in their hands. We don't won't to strike, if they lift the threat of the sack we won't strike. So it's the brigade management that's actually making the decision to allow the strike to go ahead and it's them that will make the decision whether or not to put lives at risk

 

[old.Tohtori]

Exactly there.

It's not a problem of firefighters going on strike, it's a problem of trying to force them to a worse situation.

If you were asked to do xyz crap at your work, you wouldn't take it bent over either right?

I think any firefighters who is working does it, atleast to some degree, to save people, not because of the glorious pay(heh) or the thrill of getting burned alive, so striking goesr pretty much against their own will to help as well.

If they didn't strike, then things could get worse and worse, less pay, lnoger shifts and so forth infinitum, just because the public blames firemen, not the guys who are riding them like a two for buck hookers.

In finland we had a near-strike with the security guards(best term to use), on mayday. That would've been a catastrophe waiting to happen, but the people turned towards the bosses and expected them to drop the silly work hours, and not towads the guards.

 

[rynnor]

The decision to strike on Nov 5th is a cynical game of brinksmanship that disregards the safety of the public - how anyone who calls themselves firemen can support it I find shocking.

As to the changes to contracts - modernisation was something they agreed to in exchange for a massive pay raise in their last strike in 2003.

Frankly I dont think the general public are likely to have much sympathy to this strike and it looks likely to backfire if they are as ill advised as to proceed with it.

On the plus side theres a private contractor who will provide cover if they do strike - maybe we should outsource the contract to them permanently?

 

[Tom]

Meh. I have zero sympathy for them, especially as the RMT was out supporting them, in what could almost be called an illegal flying picket:

YouTube - southwark fire station strike action -

 

[Cdr]

I remember having all these arguments with you last time too Rob, only on irc then so it was much more immediate.

heh so we did, I'll leave it then cos we'll just be going round in circles

I'll get back to enjoying a lovely Spring day (and contemplating whether or not I should go for this interview in Indonesia - after the tsunami / volcano).