Libya and the whiners

[Chilly]

So, the engineers, bankers and general oil men are all happy to go out there and accept the £1500/day danger money contract but squeal like little bitches when the danger they get paid to soak up appears.

Not impressed. Why pay them that much if they end up acting like £400/day ?

 

[Tom]

They're paid for their expertise, not to put themselves in danger. They're still British citizens and deserve to be protected.

 

[Vasconcelos]

So, the engineers, bankers and general oil men are all happy to go out there and accept the £1500/day danger money contract but squeal like little bitches when the danger they get paid to soak up appears.

Not impressed. Why pay them that much if they end up acting like £400/day ?

Yeah, this world's hipocresy. Its like Blackwater employees whinning about being shot in Irak.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah, this world's hipocresy. Its like Blackwater employees whinning about being shot in Irak.

No its not. In Iraq they were going into an active warzone. In Libya, oil workers were being paid "hardship pay", not danger money, because even "at peace" its a boring shithole and a police state. As Tom says, they get the big bucks for their skills not their cojones. Having said that, with the exception of Embassy staff and the odd tourist, it shouldn't be primarily the role of the FO to get them out, their own companies have the resources to do it (as indeed BP have done).

 

[Chilly]

They're paid for their expertise, not to put themselves in danger. They're still British citizens and deserve to be protected.

No, doing the same job in a safe country like the US or even the North sea pays nothing like as much as the arab contracts. They are paid danger money. Yes they are British citizens and fair enough to helping them out but lets not forget they are all absolutely fucking minted off the back of this.

 

[DaGaffer]

No, doing the same job in a safe country like the US or even the North sea pays nothing like as much as the arab contracts. They are paid danger money. Yes they are British citizens and fair enough to helping them out but lets not forget they are all absolutely fucking minted off the back of this.

Show me where it says "danger money" in any of their contracts. You can't because it doesn't.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Show me where it says "danger money" in any of their contracts. You can't because it doesn't.

Imo you would probably not see "danger money" in a nuclear plant employee (i dont know for sure tho).
Yet, it is indeed danger money and they get paid better than electric plant employees just because of it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

A little bit of a sidequestion;

How does this affect you and why should you care?

If it's the age old "Iz our tax moneyz", i'm cool with that. Otherwise, interested to know and no, it's not meant as a troll

 

[Chilly]

Show me where it says "danger money" in any of their contracts. You can't because it doesn't.

Of course it doesnt say that. It's implied. You wouldnt go out there for 100k and good expenses, so they have to make it 300k and SWEET expenses. Some of it is danger, some of it is living and working in shitholes. Nowhere in the contract does it say any of that, it's just supply/demand finding the price.

 

[DaGaffer]

Imo you would probably not see "danger money" in a nuclear plant employee (i dont know for sure tho).
Yet, it is indeed danger money and they get paid better than electric plant employees just because of it.

No they don't. And before you ask I know two people who are nuclear power plant employees (one in the UK and one in France), and the guy in France has just been through a cancer scare, and believe me, any nuclear plant that even hinted their environment was more dangerous than a regular plant would be completely fucked. On average Nuclear plant workers get paid more than regular power workers because they are better qualified, its as simple as that.

As for oil workers, I'll repeat, they DO NOT get paid "danger money". Usually rates are calculated based on the amount of time they are on shift, and the amenities they have access to when they aren't, along with duration in-country. Yes they get paid more for working in Libya than the North Sea, but they get paid more for working in lots of places (like central Asia), not because its dangerous, but because they don't get to go home as often. My Dad worked in the oil business for over thirty years, including overseas and the North sea. He was certainly never paid "danger money" (and he'd have regarded the North Sea as a shitload more dangerous than Libya anyway. Ironically it was the "safe" oil refinery he ended up working at in the later stages of his career that probably gave him the cancer that killed him).

 

[DaGaffer]

Of course it doesnt say that. It's implied. You wouldnt go out there for 100k and good expenses, so they have to make it 300k and SWEET expenses. Some of it is danger, some of it is living and working in shitholes. Nowhere in the contract does it say any of that, it's just supply/demand finding the price.

So what's your point? That they should just suck it up if the bullets are flying their way?

 

[Chilly]

It just seems as though they are SURPRISED anything went wrong. Did they think the vast amounts of money were just for fun? No, it's because no one really wants to work in places like Libya.

 

[DaGaffer]

It just seems as though they are SURPRISED anything went wrong. Did they think the vast amounts of money were just for fun? No, it's because no one really wants to work in places like Libya.

Of course they were surprised! Its not like civil war erupts in Libya every other week. The last time there was any kind of military danger or civil disturbance was when the Americans bombed the place in 1986! Maybe you could argue after Tunisia and Egypt that people should have had a heightened awareness, but in reality, a. no-one thinks like that (no one spent any time looking over their shoulder all those years when the IRA were blowing up bits of London), and b. no-one could have predicted the extremity of Gaddafi's response.

Even if oil workers were being paid "danger money", this particular "danger" wouldn't have been what they'd have been looking out for. In fact I'd go as far as saying Libya was probably one of the safer places to work from a "threat of personal violence" perspective.You'd be in a lot more physical danger from people in the US, Mexico or Brazil than Libya.

 

[Raven]

Did they pay UK tax?

I was talking to a colleague who was in Kuwait during the first gulf war, he was actually at the airport when Iraqi tanks rolled in. He didn't get paid danger money, he did however get paid loads of money for his expertise, tax free.

Half these people over there don't give a shit about the UK, they don't contribute to the countries income but complain when the UK doesn't bend over backwards to bring them back.

I wouldn't mind being able to go off to some hot country, earn a load of money and then if it all goes tits up have an instant ticket out of there! They decided to work out there, they should get themselves back...or at least the multi-national, multi-billion pound companies they work for should.

 

[DaGaffer]

Did they pay UK tax?

I was talking to a colleague who was in Kuwait during the first gulf war, he was actually at the airport when Iraqi tanks rolled in. He didn't get paid danger money, he did however get paid loads of money for his expertise, tax free.

Half these people over there don't give a shit about the UK, they don't contribute to the countries income but complain when the UK doesn't bend over backwards to bring them back.

I wouldn't mind being able to go off to some hot country, earn a load of money and then if it all goes tits up have an instant ticket out of there! They decided to work out there, they should get themselves back...or at least the multi-national, multi-billion pound companies they work for should.

Well, off you go then. And fwiw, most of the oil workers were brought back on charters laid on by their companies, not on the taxpayer's dollar. Its only workers in remote areas who would have to travel directly back through the fighting who are being picked up by the navy etc. And I don't have a problem with that at all. As a nation we send the military on humanitarian missions for other people all the time, why the fuck wouldn't we do it for our own?

Seems to me the whining in this thread isn't the oil workers but the people jealous of all that tax free lolly.

 

[cHodAX]

Show me where it says "danger money" in any of their contracts. You can't because it doesn't.

Correct, a couple of friends worked there for over a year, danger money is not part of any standard contract other than security services.

 

[Scouse]

Lets face it, it is danger money. I'd take it if I knew where to get it.

But I'd also expect my military to come get me, considering they spend most of their time blind-bombing innocents in far-away lands...

 

[Maljonic]

Whether it's danger money or not, their efforts supply us with the petrol we use every day in the UK. If there were no extra benefits to working in such places no one would go there. We pay them extra because we need them to go there. Also they must have spent some of their lives working in the UK, paying taxes etc, and the rest of their families still do probably. There don't seem to be that many perks to being British these days, compared to other 1st world countries, but being helped out by your home country should be one of them. Still, I think all jobs of these types should have an escape plan in place so workers can easily evacuate the country without going through the usual domestic channels. I think oil-rig workers usually have an evacuation system in place? It should be the same in the desert or militant countries where being stranded there is just as dangerous as being stuck out in the sea.

 

[MrHorus]

As for oil workers, I'll repeat, they DO NOT get paid "danger money".

Oh yes they do, but like Chilly says it's implied money and not contractual.

Usually rates are calculated based on the amount of time they are on shift, and the amenities they have access to when they aren't, along with duration in-country.

Indeed the rates are calculated in that way.

However, you are going to get a higher rate in Libya than you would in Algeria because the country is more unstable, just as you would get more money in Algeria that you would in say, Azerbaijan.

Yes they get paid more for working in Libya than the North Sea, but they get paid more for working in lots of places (like central Asia), not because its dangerous, but because they don't get to go home as often.

They will get paid more for the shift pattern yes, but it's also down to the danger factor.

My Dad worked in the oil business for over thirty years, including overseas and the North sea.[/quote[]

Mine too, but mine DID work in all the world's shitholes:

Libya
Algeria
Niger Delta
Saudi Arabia
UAE
Caspian Sea

etc etc

He was certainly never paid "danger money"

Then your dad may just have not been a good negotiator, as mine certainally did get paid better rates for going places that were politically unstable.

He may have been chased out of Nigeria by the Secret Police, but he never complained about the rate

 

[MrHorus]

Whether it's danger money or not, their efforts supply us with the petrol we use every day in the UK.

Do they *really*?

How much of our fuel is imported from politically questionable regimes when compared with how much we produce domestically?

How much of the questionable fuel could be obtained by paying higher prices to more stable countries?

If there were no extra benefits to working in such places no one would go there. We pay them extra because we need them to go there.

We pay them extra because it's fucking dangerous, that's why.

There is also the small, tiny consideration that they earn tax-free cashmonies in many of these shitholes, but let's not muddy the waters when it comes to entitlement to assistance from MOD.GOV...

Also they must have spent some of their lives working in the UK, paying taxes etc, and the rest of their families still do probably.

I don't know about Libya specifically, but the big attraction of Saudi Arabia for my dad (and by extension my mum) was that the money was tax free.

My dad took very little from this country as a non-dom - he had a small flat where he spent the occasional month or two between contracts and by and large the rest of his life was spent either on a contract in Asia or North Africa or at his flat in Cyprus.

Nice work if you can get it etc.

There don't seem to be that many perks to being British these days, compared to other 1st world countries, but being helped out by your home country should be one of them.

Putting aside the fact that these oil workers likely don't pay UK Income Tax, what help do they actually want or expect?

If they expect the SAS to fly in and airlift them out then frankly that's out of the question - much of the military in Libya has defected and there is little intelligence as to the state of the Libyan air defence or who is in command of it.

Why risk flying in military assets to rescue people who willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation by working for a morally questionable regime?

I sympathise with them and I feel sorry for their families, but sending in the UK military to rescue them just doesn't seem like a valid option at this stage.

I think oil-rig workers usually have an evacuation system in place? It should be the same in the desert or militant countries where being stranded there is just as dangerous as being stuck out in the sea.

Assuming the North Sea, not really.

Your emergency plan generally extends to launching overboard in an inflatable survivable craft and activating the EPIRB.

Once that's done, you just sit and wait for the rescue to come.

If the sea isn't too rough and there isn't burning oil on the surface of the water, your chances or survival are excellent.

All things considered, I'd rather be in an emergency in the North Sea than the Libyan desert.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Are people really saying that because they dont pay taxes (presume only in the UK) they shouldn't get help?

What about the people that are living in their own national country,, if they dont pay they should not look to the state for some help?

 

[throdgrain]

I dont give a fuck about "morally questionable regimes" I just wanty cheap petrol thanks

 

[djpringle]

You don't get danger money anymore, you get an allowance based on how much of a shit hole you are living and working in and even then day rates are pretty flat across the world, apart from the gulf states where they are a bit lower. Anyway, these desert workers may well be rotating out of the UK and not live in country expats so they will be paying taxes.

As for emergency evacuation plans, we certainly didn't have any in place until after everything kicked off in Egypt. I imagine the other oil co's in Libya would be the same and if they did it would all be based on getting people to Tripoli and ferrying them out on scheduled flights. BP only had their act together in Libya because they had just gone through the same exercise in Egypt, which was a bit of a shambles.

 

[MYstIC G]

I dont give a fuck about "morally questionable regimes" I just wanty cheap petrol thanks

this. What we did in Iraq was morally questionable so we are in the club.