let's make an agreement about AC raids

[Ashgen]

Even tho i don't like "late nights relics raids" i don't think this is the cause of the dropping of the population. Other variables as game age, new games, no advertising of the game are the principal factors imo.

Albion during OF had 0 relics during long periods (excalibur server that is), but they kept playing and it was not prejudicial to fg scene or RvR scene in general.
I can understand how frustating it's for Hibs or Mids when a primetime raid relic is overwritten by a "AC raid" the next night but people should look at what they accomplished and be proud of it and not whine on what the others did.
Relics never changed hands that many times than in NF, it's a new era and players need to adapt.

My 2cents.

Interesting post this one. I played Alb at the time that Albion did not care about keeps or relics etc. Albion in those days had a massive player population but many were in elite type RvR guilds which just wanted 8v8 action and so it was difficult to muster a credible RR force.

Hib and Mid however appeared a lot more organised.

For my 2 cents, the problem isn't AC RR's per say, it's Alb doing it. With the overwhelming numbers they can seem to call upon, and the apparent willingness to AC relics in the first place, us Hibs have two choices:

1) Try prime time and get farmed

2) Get them back AC

Neither are that appealing to me, we just either waste time and effort RP power levelling the next cohort of fire wizzies and sorcs, or if we take them AC, we lose any perceived moral high ground, and the Albs take them back again AC anyway.

So what do people do?

Nice thought process Rox, but I am afraid that it would never happen, not due to population and all those arguments, but just to human nature and the demographics of the playing population the game has at the moment.

 

[swifteagle]

what about the spirit of the game?
is the spirit of the game to take relics when non to defend keeps and relics is online ?

Spirit of the game is a tough thing to pin down though.

I dont think its fair when a FG runs over me solo because i have no chance to defend myself,its not against the spirit of the game though.

I'm sure FGs dont like people that add on their fair FG Vs FG fights again its not against the spirit of the game.

Stealthzergs camping areas only to kill soloers,duos etc again I dont like it not against the spirit of the game though.

Taking a relic at any time which has been done by all realms again i dont like it but not against the spirit of the game.

Making it easier for a relic to be retaken by a delibarate act debatable some will say it is some wont Goa decided it was against the spirit of the game.

People taking keeps during the day to setup iRvR when the majority of people arent online to stop it not against the spirit of the game but some dont like it.

People going into DF purely to kill grey cons who have no chance to fight back and win not agaisnt the spirit of the game.

As you can see alot of things are unfair depending on your point of view but arent against the spirit of the game.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Well the reason i say to you its a useless waste of effort is cuz on a server with a decent population on it it is possible to get along with ACR's, however, when the population has reached levels that this server has then it becomes much more of a issue. Mythic runs servers in the USA were they have like double the different time zones we have and it wont be such a big issue as it is here.

I agree, but the whine on AC'ed relics has been always big here regardless of how healthy the server was.

 

[Sharkith]

I agree, but the whine on AC'ed relics has been always big here regardless of how healthy the server was.

thats a fact!

 

[charmangle]

Want it fixed? Sent feedback to Mythic.

Hmm...why doesnt the same argument go for setting a relic keep to lvl 1?
Want it fixed? send feedback to Mythic.

If they can ban someone for using an ingame feature, then they can ban people for doing AC raids...its just a matter of choice from GoA!

/Charmangle

 

[swifteagle]

Hmm...why doesnt the same argument go for setting a relic keep to lvl 1?
Want it fixed? send feedback to Mythic.

If they can ban someone for using an ingame feature, then they can ban people for doing AC raids...its just a matter of choice from GoA!

/Charmangle

The difference is although in this case hibs suffer by losing a relic from an AC raid it is within the rules Realm Vs Realm, you may not like it but it is within the rules.

Setting a keep to Level 1 is aiding an enemy realm to get the relic back easier and so is considered cross realming which is against the spirit of the game and the CoC you may agree or disagree with it but those are the facts the decisions are made on.
Let me turn this debate on its head

Hibs take a relic primetime and put it in a keep which a known AC guild are currently holding and disagree with the way the relic was taken as it doesnt fit into the way they like to play the game.
They then drop the relic keep to level 1 as a protest for not playing the game the way they want it played , Fair or Unfair,against the rules or within the spirit of the game ?

 

[WullieTheRed]

The difference is although in this case hibs suffer by losing a relic from an AC raid it is within the rules Realm Vs Realm, you may not like it but it is within the rules.

Setting a keep to Level 1 is aiding an enemy realm to get the relic back easier and so is considered cross realming which is against the spirit of the game and the CoC you may agree or disagree with it but those are the facts the decisions are made on.
Let me turn this debate on its head

But, my slow minded little friend, the world is rarely in black and white; the reason for the setting of the keep to lvl 1 was a protest against the people who are killing the fun for the majority of the server... which, by the by, pay a helluva a lot more cash towards the GOA kitty than the sad sacks who AC are. If you think that yer little argument should hold sway, then fine, I hope you have fun when it's only the AC'rs doing a little bit of PvE every night, because I'm pretty damned sure the people who play this game for the mass PvP battles wont be hanging around much longer.

Hibs take a relic primetime and put it in a keep which a known AC guild are currently holding and disagree with the way the relic was taken as it doesnt fit into the way they like to play the game.
They then drop the relic keep to level 1 as a protest for not playing the game the way they want it played , Fair or Unfair,against the rules or within the spirit of the game ?

That's just being silly.

 

[elbeek]

An easy way around this is surely to have the key keeps auto upgrade dependant on the numbers logged onto the server.

 

[Malcolm]

2) Get them back AC
...or if we take them AC, we lose any perceived moral high ground, and the Albs take them back again AC anyway.

Well there have been quite a few instances recently where non-Albion realms AC'd their own AC'd relics back (or attempted to get them back) so doing it now wouldn't be setting a precedent.


https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=209124

 

[swifteagle]

But, my slow minded little friend, the world is rarely in black and white; the reason for the setting of the keep to lvl 1 was a protest against the people who are killing the fun for the majority of the server... which, by the by, pay a helluva a lot more cash towards the GOA kitty than the sad sacks who AC are. If you think that yer little argument should hold sway, then fine, I hope you have fun when it's only the AC'rs doing a little bit of PvE every night, because I'm pretty damned sure the people who play this game for the mass PvP battles wont be hanging around much longer.

That's just being silly.

I wont start insulting you as thats not how I am and the post was meant to make people see things from a different point of view and maybe think about it.

I dont agree with AC raids but I dont agree with alot else that goes on in game and is unfair to others,because a majority dont like something it doesnt always make it right it just means the majority dont agree with it.

You say the people who play the game for mass PvP wont hang around much longer but what about the people who dont like mass pvp do they have a right to an opinion as well or is it only one set of people allowed to decide things for everyone else ?

 

[Thadius]

indeed - should be midnight to 8pm as I don't get home until 7pm and i need to make & eat dinner, wash the dishes etc before I get to sit infront of my computer.

Shut it down while after Christmas, I cant afford the subs!

 

[Quantaco]

Last Friday some Hib players tried to make a statement by releasing towers and keeps. It was a statement against the AC raids which caused this server a lot of harm, many people left this server during the past weeks and months, mainly Hibs. But if Hibs leave the game then it also becomes less interesting for the other realms, also Mids and Albs will leave and the server will be dead eventually. As GoA didn't seem to be able to solve this problem, some Hibs decided to take action, a last attempt to try to convince all realms it would benefit us all to get rid of these AC raids. Not everyone was happy with this action, but I'm still convinced it was the best we could do to prevend more damage to this server. We got a lot of support from Hibs, Mids and Albs. It seems to me like most people, also Albs, wanna get rid of these AC raids.
GoA didn't seem to understand the problem, they rather ban people instead of helping us to find a solution. They banned 2 Albion players for downgrading a relic keep, perhaps GoA feels like they have no choice and have to ban people for acting against the spirit of the game, which I support, but not in this case where they failed to see the real problem: the AC raids which are spoiling the gamefun for so many players. GoA could have admitted to understand the real problem behind this all, by not banning people and by making a statement against AC-raids. Unfortunately they just prefered to ban.

Don't forget we're ALL here to have some fun, that's what we all pay for. Having a few people (AC raiders) spoiling the fun for so many others, that certainly must be against the spirit of the game.

This server is not dead yet, there are still enough players left to have fun but we can't loose anymore. We have to deal with these AC raids, we should have done that months ago tbh..., so let's try to agree with most players about this: AC-raids are not wanted, any keeps or relics taken during an AC raid will not be defended by the realm that took them.

I'll leave it to the Albion players to decide what has to happen with the 2 AC raided relics from Hibernia they have at the moment. I know it will be very difficult for Hibs to get these relics back from a defended keep, as Hibs only have a few groups left to zerg.

Roxanna - druid
GM of Dream Walkers

What you had written above does make senes, BUT really do unfair to those who had to work late, people who plays from different countries, and that really sound very unfair to a 24 h games. Agreement isnt the fact to be done like this tbh, coz no one will listen to ur suggestion of it. GOA they cant do as you told them to and it is agaisnt to a 24 h game <asking to shut down during ur sleeping time while u wanna to nice sleep and people who want to play the game and ask them to FO>.

Yes atm hibs has lose 2 relics, but I still dont get the point why they given up, I may say this alot of times but tbh what they have lose? The range that they can hit is still there;10 % of the power lose = what to hibs;Bug abusing for hibs still playing as normal; Unpopulared realm bouness still awarded even we complain since last patch; Releasing keep coz they retearig for what? And what I can see so far HIBs warmap is not red but is green, mostly keep claimed. pfff.... b4 albs has lose 2 relic like 5-6 months has we retered like you??

 

[tierk]

I agree, but the whine on AC'ed relics has been always big here regardless of how healthy the server was.

Yes agreed that people have been whining about ACR's for ever, however, it has now got to the point were people should maybe within there individual realms be doing something to try and staunch the flow of people bleeding off to other servers. If you wanna sit here and debate about ACR's and the whine they generate nothing will be done in the end. We need solutions to this issue not more endless flame and gloating from a certain sections of the community.

I personal think that all people involved in any ACR's should be treated like lepers tbh kicked from alliances and all guild /realm events. Not grped with and generally treated the way they treating everyone else on the server. ie cu7ting them all off.

This would imo be a much more effective way of doing things ingame to try and resolve this issue and would not need to have GOA involved. I am pretty sure that this would also reduce the number of incidences of ACR's dramatically.

 

[WullieTheRed]

I wont start insulting you as thats not how I am

Aww... don't be mean

You say the people who play the game for mass PvP wont hang around much longer but what about the people who dont like mass pvp do they have a right to an opinion as well or is it only one set of people allowed to decide things for everyone else ?

Not at all, but I would certainly expect it to be in GOA's interests, seeing as majority=more money. And for those who don't like mass pvp (or indeed a game with lots of other players... I think I mean an MMORPG) then why are they playing DAoC in the first place?

 

[Thadius]

I had no sympathy for those who got alarm clock raided...

Until I logged on one morning at 5am because I was ill and ended up defending Renaris against 2 fg of Mids....

You give as good as you get in my opinion

 

[tierk]

Bug abusing for hibs still playing as normal............. Unpopulared realm bouness still awarded even we complain since last patch

The bainshee coning through walls bug has been fixed iirc. Post something usefull instead of trying to justify what you been doing. If the relics are such a loss and the manner they were taken is not aissue then why is it the night crew have to pve them back within 24 hrs of them been taken off you prime time?

 

[charmangle]

The difference is although in this case hibs suffer by losing a relic from an AC raid it is within the rules Realm Vs Realm, you may not like it but it is within the rules.

Setting a keep to Level 1 is aiding an enemy realm to get the relic back easier and so is considered cross realming which is against the spirit of the game and the CoC you may agree or disagree with it but those are the facts the decisions are made on.
Let me turn this debate on its head

Hibs take a relic primetime and put it in a keep which a known AC guild are currently holding and disagree with the way the relic was taken as it doesnt fit into the way they like to play the game.
They then drop the relic keep to level 1 as a protest for not playing the game the way they want it played , Fair or Unfair,against the rules or within the spirit of the game ?

I dont see your argument or the difference at all.
There is nothing in the CoC that specify that setting a relic keep to lvl 1 is not allowed. There is nothing in the CoC that specify what is to be concidered acting against your own realm. There just insnt anything in the CoC about any of this...

The rule that has been applied is a rule that say: Acting against the Spirit of the Game is wrong. It never specifies what the spirit of the game is. It was almost certainly a rule put in as fail safe for GoA. Meaning they need a wide spanning rule that can be used to deal with people they think are able to make such a big affect on the ingame population that they cant have them as customers any longer. And apparently thats the case with the desition they made about TT and BF.

But it never specifies anything along the lines you seem to be suggesting.
So GoA could just as easily have said: Its against the spirit of the game to do AC raids because it is counter productive to the rest of the population. The point of RvR is to fight vs the other realms players, not the Guards. And banned the GMs of the ACraiders.

There just arent any difference in that argument than there is in the argument that its wrong setting a keep to a lvl that the game allows. Its just a matter of opinions...both actions are clearly allowed within the CoC, but with a rule that can be used to support any argument, both actions can be twisted into beeing aginst the CoC.

So things you precent as facts, really has nothing to do with facts what so ever.

And my argument was, that if GoA or anyone else doesnt want setting a relic keep to lvl 1 to be in the game why dont they just do the exact same thing as Manich told the other side to do, report it to mythic and get it fixed.

So I would still like an answere to that!

/Charmangle

ps. It would be interresting to know how come the Spirit of the Game rule hasnt been used on people dropping a taken Relic at enemy door steps before. Or when AoD set a the Crim keep to lvl 1 this past summer. Both are clearly the same situation as here, but never warranted the use of the SotG rule. In the end the only conclusion can be, that GoA chose to arbitrarily sacrifice the TT/BF customers to silence complaints from others. ds

 

[swifteagle]

Not at all, but I would certainly expect it to be in GOA's interests, seeing as majority=more money. And for those who don't like mass pvp (or indeed a game with lots of other players... I think I mean an MMORPG) then why are they playing DAoC in the first place?

Yep I agree I played all styles in game mainly solo but enjoyed keep taking,defence and mass pvp at times.

But if the majority of people played Daoc to mass rvr then every night we'd have 800 people in NF zerging away all night.
Some play a mmorpg for mass pvp,some like to solo,some like FG vs FG some like to only do PvE ,some like to take towers and keeps and alot do a variety of these things.

The fun of most mmorpgs is getting to know other people how you decide to do that is your choice but because daoc has a good rvr end game it doesnt mean everyone that plays it is out constantly zerging or else the game would have died years ago for alot of people.

I'm not disagreeing with you about mass pvp but imo relics probably make the least difference to any realm when its zerg Vs zerg.

 

[Gahn]

We can make educated guesses though - recent polls on which many people had strong feelings get around 250 responses cluster has somewhere between 800-1000 people on it at peak times. Even if half of those are dual logging (and that seems very unlikely) that still makes the FH population 50% of the cluster. If a quarter are dual logging (seems closer to the real figure) then it drops to one-third of cluster being active on FH.

Take into account that quite a lot of the more vocal FH posters have 'retired' or 'inactive' or 'moved' in their sigs andthat further diminshes the proportion of cluster that are likely to be active on FH.

Not now tbh.

 

[swifteagle]

I dont see your argument or the difference at all.
There is nothing in the CoC that specify that setting a relic keep to lvl 1 is not allowed. There is nothing in the CoC that specify what is to be concidered acting against your own realm. There just insnt anything in the CoC about any of this...

The rule that has been applied is a rule that say: Acting against the Spirit of the Game is wrong. It never specifies what the spirit of the game is. It was almost certainly a rule put in as fail safe for GoA. Meaning they need a wide spanning rule that can be used to deal with people they think are able to make such a big affect on the ingame population that they cant have them as customers any longer. And apparently thats the desition they made vs TT and BF.

But it never specifies anything along the lines you seem to be suggesting.
So GoA could just as easily have said: Its against the spirit of the game to do AC raids because it is counter productive to the rest of the population. The point of RvR is to fight vs the other realms players, not the Guards.

There just isnt any difference in that argument than there is in the argument setting a keep to a lvl that the game allows. Its just a matter of opinions...both actions are clearly allowed within the CoC, but with a rule that can be used to support any argument, both actions can be twisted into beeing aginst the CoC.

So things you precent as facts, really has nothing to do with facts what so ever.

And my argument was, that if GoA or anyone else doesnt want setting a relic keep to lvl 1 to be in the game why dont they just do the exact same thing as Manich told the other side to do, report it to mythic and get it fixed.

So I would still like an answere to that!

/Charmangle

Setting the keep to level 1 wasnt the problem it was the way it was done,from what I understand one guild held the keep when the relic was placed in it,another guild then asked to take control of that keep with the intention of setting it to level 1,it was decided beforehand to do this as a protest, fine I have nothing against people protesting,but in GoAs eyes it was an act of cross realming which is against the CoC and spirit of the game.

Taking a relic in an AC raid is Realm Vs realm there is nothing in the CoC or against the spirit of the game,you might not like it,I might not like it, the majority of the server might not like it but that is how it is from GoAs point of view and as they make the rules and CoC it is up to them to decide what is and isnt within the rules.

I would like to see the situation sorted out so everyone is happy with the result but I'm not sure its possible because you have the maority of the server saying they dont want AC raids which is fair enough,but you also have the minority who want to do relic raids when they are logged in maybe at the only time they can be logged in.

Mythic may or may not agree with the idea to not allow relic keeps to be set to level 1 or to lock down all relics after a certain time its up to them its their game but telling a realm to sort out what 1fg is doing when that realm probably doesnt even know the names of them unless they are logged in at the same time isnt going to solve it.

 

[Javai]

Not now tbh.

The 800 is the figure when I logged on last night. I'll note it again tonight as it might've just been an especially busy Sunday or something. Though it was similar every evening last week at 8.00 GMT - ~500 on Excal ~300 on Pryd.

 

[Asha]

Nice idea, but as you can see from the responses, it's a no-go.

As usual Bracken can't grasp the concept that Alb & Mid 8vs8 players don't give a toss about the 10%, but do greatly care that there is less and less ppl to fight. Ofc it's demoralizing to Hibs to have their relics AC raided over and over. And you can't say Hib 8vs8 players don't turn out for massive pvp raids. WTF is Mastade?

In recent polls there was close to 500 responders. If you want to claim there is 800-1000 max on server atm including bots at primetime, then 500 responders seems large to me...

You guys don't want to listen to people who are actually leaving the server, entire guilds doing it.

Are AC raids that much fun?

Ofc the irony is that you're asking people who do raids against NPCs to stop or the server will be empty of players soon. Ofcourse these people fight NPCs, so why would they care if there is players or not?

 

[pip]

Well i think if the bandits of the night keep taking relics they wont be many more people to ban, imo something as to change and change fast what this server needs is more irvr maybe all have a keep in each realm tbh I'm sick of getting a boat then get instant killed, and i quess 10% of those that left was down to that.


Ps...Think i might take up chess so i can solo more HEHEHEHEHEHE



AND SORT OUT DI IT'S PISSING ME OFF

 

[Imon]

1) It makes people leave when the population already is dropping/low.

Thats the only f-ing reason you need. You drive people away with this nonsense attidude to the game and other players.

When we are clustered or got higher population ( as if ), then please go ahead with ur ACing.

Lol i would says the 8 vs 8 crowds attitude is a much bigger reason for that ppl left in the past, the ppl leaving now are mostly 8 vs 8 ppl who moves to new action so i really couldnt care less tbh

 

[charmangle]

Setting the keep to level 1 wasnt the problem it was the way it was done,from what I understand one guild held the keep when the relic was placed in it,another guild then asked to take control of that keep with the intention of setting it to level 1,it was decided beforehand to do this as a protest, fine I have nothing against people protesting,but in GoAs eyes it was an act of cross realming which is against the CoC and spirit of the game.

Taking a relic in an AC raid is Realm Vs realm there is nothing in the CoC or against the spirit of the game,you might not like it,I might not like it, the majority of the server might not like it but that is how it is from GoAs point of view and as they make the rules and CoC it is up to them to decide what is and isnt within the rules.

I would like to see the situation sorted out so everyone is happy with the result but I'm not sure its possible because you have the maority of the server saying they dont want AC raids which is fair enough,but you also have the minority who want to do relic raids when they are logged in maybe at the only time they can be logged in.

Mythic may or may not agree with the idea to not allow relic keeps to be set to level 1 or to lock down all relics after a certain time its up to them its their game but telling a realm to sort out what 1fg is doing when that realm probably doesnt even know the names of them unless they are logged in at the same time isnt going to solve it.

Hmm...you keep repeating that it is against the CoC to in a specific way release and then claim a keep to lvl 1, but you fail to show where it says its against the CoC. There is NOTHING in the ruleset about this...there is a rule called SotG that can be used on any part of rvr at any time. Do me a favour, quote me the part in the CoC where it specifies exactly what the spirit of the Realm is. Or where it says how and when you can release a keep or/and set it to a certain lvl.

You say it was in GoAs eyes Crossrealming to set the keep to lvl 1, with that I can agree, that is a fact. BUT they used such a fickle rule, and with the past history of not banning people for dropping enemy relics infront of another enemy and setting other keeps to lvl 1 for the specific reason to undo a job done by your realm. It is clear, it had nothing to do with the actions it self, but with a principle descition and making a example out of 2 of their customers! (In that instance it wasnt a relic but Irvr setup, but it was the exact same situation, because the only reason was to ruin something that others of your realm had worked hard for) (the argument GoA used to bann TT/BF members)

In the end, there are no rules controlling this and therefor if you can say: Talk to mythic to fix the AC raiding thing, then you can also say: Talk to mythic to fix the setting of an important keep to lvl 1 by 1 lonly guild to aid another realm!

In the end the facts are: There were before this ban, no rules against this. There were no rules against ACraids. There were and are no functions in the game that control either of these. Therefor, whine on Mythic to fix the setting of Lvl 1 keeps dont ban people for it.

/Charmangle

 

[swifteagle]

Hmm...you keep repeating that it is against the CoC to in a specific way release and then claim a keep to lvl 1, but you fail to show where it says its against the CoC. There is NOTHING in the ruleset about this...there is a rule called SotG that can be used on any part of rvr at any time. Do me a favour, quote me the part in the CoC where it specifies exactly what the spirit of the Realm is. Or where it says how and when you can release a keep or/and set it to a certain lvl.

You say it was in GoAs eyes Crossrealming to set the keep to lvl 1, with that I can agree, that is a fact. BUT they used such a fickle rule, and with the past history of not banning people for dropping enemy relics infront of another enemy and setting other keeps to lvl 1 for the specific reason to undo a job done by your realm. It is clear, it had nothing to do with the actions it self, but with a principle descition and making a example out of 2 of their customers! (In that instance it wasnt a relic but Irvr setup, but it was the exact same situation, because the only reason was to ruin something that others of your realm had worked hard for) (the argument GoA used to bann TT/BF members)

In the end, there are no rules controlling this and therefor if you can say: Talk to mythic to fix the AC raiding thing, then you can also say: Talk to mythic to fix the setting of an important keep to lvl 1 by 1 lonly guild to aid another realm!

In the end the facts are: There were before this ban, no rules against this. There were no rules against ACraids. There were and are no functions in the game that control either of these. Therefor, whine on Mythic to fix the setting of Lvl 1 keeps dont ban people for it.

/Charmangle

I'm not sure but maybe the reason people were banned this time as opposed to other times is they had alot of people sending in complaints over right now and also had chat logs etc to back up what was being said and in the other situations maybe no one complained or there was no specific chat log evidence or any other evidence it was done on purpose.

I agree with you about GoA seeming to apply rules for a certain set of people over another but if all people who had bug abused over the recent LoS issues and alot of other stuff over the years had been banned I'm sure the server population would have been at the level it is now years ago

It was after all is said and done a 5 day ban and not a perma ban that they recieved,it may not seem fair how they were treated but it could have been a perma ban if they were really feeling like making an example as afaik this was the first and test case for a relic keep being set to level 1 on purpose.

 

[buffswithlove]

AC raids sucks mainly goz i dont get any defence rps =( take it prime time so most of us can enjoy when u take relic and get rps from u.

 

[Darzil]

AC raiding is against the spirit of the game ? No.

AC raiding is against the spirit of the community ? Probably the majority of it.

AC raiding is against the spirit of the FH RvR forum ? The vast majority of it.

Darzil

 

[Quantaco]

The bainshee coning through walls bug has been fixed iirc. Post something usefull instead of trying to justify what you been doing. If the relics are such a loss and the manner they were taken is not aissue then why is it the night crew have to pve them back within 24 hrs of them been taken off you prime time?

If you want something useful from me then continuly read the post that I have written, I aint only including ur bug abusing skills!!! tbh relic just decrease ur magic / melee % bonuses. And so still dont understand why people had to get that as a main point to leave the game? Again we lose relic b4 much longer then u have but I dont think we act losers like hibs does.

 

[Tuthmes]

AC raiding is against the spirit of the game ? No.

AC raiding is against the spirit of the community ? Probably the majority of it.

AC raiding is against the spirit of the FH RvR forum ? The vast majority of it.

Darzil

And who plays the game?