Lets Kill Some People, Again! (Maybe)

Scouse

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What's the bet that we withold food aid unless the North Koreans start doing what we want, like last time this happened?

The reason there were millions of starving last time was flooding and our very slow aid assistance. Lets hope western governments do the right thing and give the innocent people some of our massive stockpiles eh?
 

CorNokZ

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I hope they do. Someone has to be the bigger man and reach out. Kim Jong Ill or Un or whatever he is called, will most likely just make into propaganda and tell them that his father sent it from heaven or some shit
 

old.Tohtori

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Time for a freddyshouse food-drive where we send tinned goods to a central location(or money to buy them) and then order a delivery?

You know, money and mouth etc :p
 

Embattle

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What's the bet that we withold food aid unless the North Koreans start doing what we want, like last time this happened?

The reason there were millions of starving last time was flooding and our very slow aid assistance. Lets hope western governments do the right thing and give the innocent people some of our massive stockpiles eh?

You know if you wanted a serious discussion on this sort of subject then I think you've failed with the topic name and then your opening post :rolleyes:
 

soze

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Morally the right thing to do is to bail them out. But it can't feel good to break our backs helping them when we know two weeks down the line he will be telling all his people that we rape children and are the devil and they should just kill us as soon as possible.
 

Scouse

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You know if you wanted a serious discussion on this sort of subject then I think you've failed with the topic name and then your opening post :rolleyes:

The thread title is tongue in cheek. The opening post is serious, however.

We failed last time. Many died. I'm asking the question "are we going to help" and stating my opinion that "I hope we do - as it's the 'right thing' to do".

Morally the right thing to do is to bail them out. But it can't feel good to break our backs helping them when we know two weeks down the line he will be telling all his people that we rape children and are the devil and they should just kill us as soon as possible.

Do the sins of the few mean that the many should be left to die for it? Remember - it's religious indoctrination that the people have undergone (and are undergoing). They don't know any better...


If someone said "fuck 'em" about the Jews that were burned by Hitler, would you think that person was being:

A) a giant cunt; or
B) a mah00sive twat

? :)
 

soze

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Do the sins of the few mean that the many should be left to die for it? Remember - it's religious indoctrination that the people have undergone (and are undergoing). They don't know any better...
Nope. Hence the moral choice. It would feel like we are being mugged off but there is no way you can condem a population to die because of the wing nuts in charge.
 

caLLous

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It's the right thing to do but it won't change the bullshit that they get told as soon as we have given them the aid. There's no win-win to the aid givers; either we don't give them aid and people die and we get called cunts, or we give them aid and people live and we still get called cunts.
 

DaGaffer

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The thread title is tongue in cheek. The opening post is serious, however.

We failed last time. Many died. I'm asking the question "are we going to help" and stating my opinion that "I hope we do - as it's the 'right thing' to do".

Do the sins of the few mean that the many should be left to die for it? Remember - it's religious indoctrination that the people have undergone (and are undergoing). They don't know any better...

If someone said "fuck 'em" about the Jews that were burned by Hitler, would you think that person was being:

A) a giant cunt; or
B) a mah00sive twat

? :)

Wow, Godwin seven posts in.

There are two counter-arguments to "doing the right thing"; 1. You're prolonging the agony. Maybe revolution can only come from within when the people have had enough? 2. Why us? China are NK's only "ally", why isn't the world's second-richest nation doing something about NK's plight?
 

old.Tohtori

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We failed last time. Many died. I'm asking the question "are we going to help" and stating my opinion that "I hope we do - as it's the 'right thing' to do".

That's why my first post was what it was. We didn't do anything last time, we didn't fail. Hoping that we do anything is false as you can't hope you do something, you either do or don't.

Pedantic? Yes, but i don't think there's room to complain if you're not doing anything.
 

Raven

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The thread title is tongue in cheek. The opening post is serious, however.

We failed last time. Many died. I'm asking the question "are we going to help" and stating my opinion that "I hope we do - as it's the 'right thing' to do".



Do the sins of the few mean that the many should be left to die for it? Remember - it's religious indoctrination that the people have undergone (and are undergoing). They don't know any better...



If someone said "fuck 'em" about the Jews that were burned by Hitler, would you think that person was being:

A) a giant cunt; or
B) a mah00sive twat

? :)

The Jews didn't have a choice. The Northern Koreans do, if they don't like their leadership they should revolt. the only problem is they are religiously fanatical about it.

You don't feed a drug habit to cure it.
 

Scouse

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Wow, Godwin seven posts in.

Chilly posted "fuck them" to the potential deaths and certain suffering of tens of thousands. I thought the comparison with the holocaust was particularly apt.

Just because someone coined the term "godwin" doesn't mean that you should rule out all use of nazi-inspired argument. Especially when Chilly says "fuck 'em" to this:
starving_children.jpg



Fuck 'em, eh?

...
 

Scouse

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The Jews didn't have a choice. The Northern Koreans do, if they don't like their leadership they should revolt. the only problem is they are religiously fanatical about it.

Two things here:

1) You know they love their leaders. They're religiously indoctrinated. Blind to the atrocities foisted upon them. Revolt is far from their minds.

2) They're innocent people.

How can you justify genocide-by-proxy?
 

rynnor

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We send aid everywhere else - I dont think we should discriminate because of local politics or we'd never send anything out - I mean ethiopia is no bed of roses for example.
 

DaGaffer

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Chilly posted "fuck them" to the potential deaths and certain suffering of tens of thousands. I thought the comparison with the holocaust was particularly apt.

Just because someone coined the term "godwin" doesn't mean that you should rule out all use of nazi-inspired argument. Especially when Chilly says "fuck 'em" to this:
starving_children.jpg



Fuck 'em, eh?

...

Oh noes, the hollow-eyed children and the use of bold! I'll immediately send you all my money!

Oh sorry, that tactic stopped working on me in about 1986. Especially when those poor little buggers are being used to manipulate guilty westerners by a regime that controls every message coming out of their country. Tell you what, when the troops of the worlds fourth-largest standing army start giving up their rations to feed their children, then we'll talk. So long as the country is spending a third of their entire budget on the military, then these kids are going to suffer no matter how angst-ridden a bunch of western liberals feel about it. Any aid sent won't get to the people who need it.
 

Scouse

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these kids are going to suffer no matter how angst-ridden a bunch of western liberals feel about it

So, I should stick you in Chilly's camp then? ;)

The picture wasn't an attempt to guilt you into changing your opinion. It was an attempt to humanise this thread slightly. It's easy to say "fuck 'em" to an idea - less so if you've a visual representation to what you're condoning.

I happen to agree with your point about adverts for starving children too - they stopped working on me in the mid-80's also. De-sensitised, is the word. In-sensitive is what we are.

Your lack-of-guilt doesn't counter the argument though. The North Koreans need help. We should give it, IMO.

Even if I agreed with you and thought that food-aid wouldn't help the innocent (which I don't - yes the army are better-fed, but even the military love their families - and will demand that their families get food-aid) I must condemn anyone who simply says "fuck 'em".

Making an intellectual argument (which you have) against food-aid is one thing. Saying "fuck 'em", however, is simply being a cunt.
 

DaGaffer

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So, I should stick you in Chilly's camp then? ;)

The picture wasn't an attempt to guilt you into changing your opinion. It was an attempt to humanise this thread slightly. It's easy to say "fuck 'em" to an idea - less so if you've a visual representation to what you're condoning.

I happen to agree with your point about adverts for starving children too - they stopped working on me in the mid-80's also. De-sensitised, is the word. In-sensitive is what we are.

Your lack-of-guilt doesn't counter the argument though. The North Koreans need help. We should give it, IMO.

Even if I agreed with you and thought that food-aid wouldn't help the innocent (which I don't - yes the army are better-fed, but even the military love their families - and will demand that their families get food-aid) I cannot support someone saying "fuck 'em".

Making an intellectual argument (which you have) against food-aid is one thing. Saying "fuck 'em", however, is simply being a cunt.

The rank and file troops won't even know about the food aid (apart from a few responsible for checking it at the border) and don't necessarily know what conditions their own families are in. Plus, this is NK, even if they did know about it, short of mutiny there's no way for the troops to make their opinions known.

Sending food aid to NK, on a practical level, is literally a waste of time. There's no mechanism for outside aid agencies (even the UN) to audit where the food goes, so while it may make you feel better, people will still starve. Like so many things to do with NK, there is one mechanism and one mechanism only, that can have an effect, and that's for China to take a lead. They are the only people NK have to listen to. Of course will China do anything constructive? Will they fuck, and somehow the West will get blamed in the process.
 

Scouse

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The rank and file troops won't even know about the food aid (apart from a few responsible for checking it at the border) and don't necessarily know what conditions their own families are in. Plus, this is NK, even if they did know about it, short of mutiny there's no way for the troops to make their opinions known.

How do you know this? It's just conjecture at best - and I don't see how it could be true.

Are you saying that people in the army have no contact with their families? You get home, you ask your mum, or your wife, "did you get helped"?

If food aid was on a big enough scale it would be the army that receives the food and takes it to the affected areas. The military may not have knowledge that it was "food aid" - but would have knowledge that their "god" was giving from his food stores to help their families, or something similar...

There's no mechanism for outside aid agencies (even the UN) to audit where the food goes, so while it may make you feel better, people will still starve

It's going to go somewhere. A lack of audit doesn't mean that the food will magically "disappear".

LESS people will starve. They're not going to throw the food away. They're going to give it to people.

We may not like who they give it to - but does that really matter?
 

DaGaffer

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How do you know this? It's just conjecture at best - and I don't see how it could be true.

Are you saying that people in the army have no contact with their families? You get home, you ask your mum, or your wife, "did you get helped"?

If the NK military is anything like the Russian (and I can only imagine its worse, which is saying something), then no, rank and file troops don't have regular contact with home. They're kept on barracks. Yes they get occasional leave and can send letters, but both are highly controlled. And even if they do get home, they can't ask the question "did you get helped"? Because for most of them, they won't know there was any help to get.

If food aid was on a big enough scale it would be the army that receives the food and takes it to the affected areas. The military may not have knowledge that it was "food aid" - but would have knowledge that their "god" was giving from his food stores to help their families, or something similar...

Party members, ranking military, "elite" civil servants etc. would all get first dibs on the goodies. This is the kind of thing that happens in countries where we can audit food aid, why on Earth do you think it would be better in a country that's effectively a black box to us?


It's going to go somewhere. A lack of audit doesn't mean that the food will magically "disappear".

LESS people will starve. They're not going to throw the food away. They're going to give it to people.

We may not like who they give it to - but does that really matter?

Less people would starve, but see above, not the right ones.
 

Embattle

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The thread title is tongue in cheek. The opening post is serious, however.

We failed last time. Many died. I'm asking the question "are we going to help" and stating my opinion that "I hope we do - as it's the 'right thing' to do".



Do the sins of the few mean that the many should be left to die for it? Remember - it's religious indoctrination that the people have undergone (and are undergoing). They don't know any better...



If someone said "fuck 'em" about the Jews that were burned by Hitler, would you think that person was being:

A) a giant cunt; or
B) a mah00sive twat

? :)

I stand by what I said and just to prove it you carried on with the self righteous do right rubbish you normally do. In reality you aren't looking to help, you are just foisting your simplistic view of right and wrong and hoping other people join you which is probably why some people end up replying the way they do to stuff you post with such comments as "fuck em".

We didn't fail anything last time, the idea we should always ask how high when someone says jump is utterly absurd and is little more than actually making ourselves feel better while utterly ignoring the actual problem which in the end is and always has been the government of NK. The notion that this aid will even go to those who actually need it is laughable, it'll probably be used to feed some of the lower ranks of the government. NK has done nothing but ensure that its own people stave, not that the ruling elite care other than the fact it'll make good propaganda what ever is decided.
 

Scouse

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the actual problem which in the end is and always has been the government of NK. The notion that this aid will even go to those who actually need it is laughable, it'll probably be used to feed some of the lower ranks of the government

Again, two things:

1) The ruling elite are very well catered for already
2) I agree wholeheartedly that the NK government are a problem - but a separate one - they didn't cause the floods in the 90's or the ones today

Pakistan got a fair bit of help. I bet they syphoned off loads of the help they got.

Hate the government, not the people...
 

old.Tohtori

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So Scouse *bites on a carrot* What'cha gonna do about it? Weren't you one of those folk who made alot of cashies around here?
 

Raven

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So, I should stick you in Chilly's camp then? ;)

The picture wasn't an attempt to guilt you into changing your opinion. It was an attempt to humanise this thread slightly. It's easy to say "fuck 'em" to an idea - less so if you've a visual representation to what you're condoning.

I happen to agree with your point about adverts for starving children too - they stopped working on me in the mid-80's also. De-sensitised, is the word. In-sensitive is what we are.

Your lack-of-guilt doesn't counter the argument though. The North Koreans need help. We should give it, IMO.

Even if I agreed with you and thought that food-aid wouldn't help the innocent (which I don't - yes the army are better-fed, but even the military love their families - and will demand that their families get food-aid) I must condemn anyone who simply says "fuck 'em".

Making an intellectual argument (which you have) against food-aid is one thing. Saying "fuck 'em", however, is simply being a cunt.

How much money have you donated recently?
 

Scouse

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How much money have you donated recently?

Were to? Search for North Korean flood relief donations...

I don't think my ten bucks would make much difference either way. They need food aid, says the United Nations representative there, not spunky charitable guilt-relief...

The point I made in my original post is that "I hope the west doesn't fail them, like we did in the 90's". I'm surprised that there's so much hate about on Freddyshouse for the innocent population. Nobody is a fan of the government - least of all me (especially because of the religious nature of their hoodwinking) - but I expected a bit more support for sending a starving people some food from our massive stockpiles...

Hey ho :(
 

old.user4556

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Lots to Barclays if I remember, they used it to pay a fine.





















Sorry cheap shot :(
 

Embattle

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Again, two things:

1) The ruling elite are very well catered for already
2) I agree wholeheartedly that the NK government are a problem - but a separate one - they didn't cause the floods in the 90's or the ones today

Pakistan got a fair bit of help. I bet they syphoned off loads of the help they got.

Hate the government, not the people...

1) I never said they weren't.
2) No but they made sure there was already masses of staving and wasted money on other unneeded projects.

I've generally always questioned aid, that includes any given to Pakistan.
 

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