Help Legal advice re: downloads

[Naetha]

Ello folks

Wondered if I could get a bit of advice.

My friend received a letter yesterday from a firm of solicitors saying that they had been given my friend's IP address from their ISP saying that they had downloaded a copy of a game illegaly. They requested £500 out of court settlement plus signatures on a disclaimer stating that they would delete all files relating to the download, and never be naughty again.

What should my friend do? They never actually installed the game (in fact didn't even realise they'd got it until they checked) and obviously never played it or made it available for further download.

From what I can see, there are several options.

1) Ignore the letter altogether - maybe they'll go away. If they do follow up, then claim the letter was never delivered in the first place.

2) Send back the letter with the disclaimer signed, but crossing out the "I will pay you £500" bit.

3) Challenge it using some legal loophole due to not making it available for upload, not installing it etc. (I have yet to find that loophole though!)

4) Send a letter back with a photocopy of (another friend's ) receipt for the game, purchased before the download took place.

All advice appreciated

 

[Naetha]

Oh, I'd just like to add that my friend very rarely downloads anything illegally (number of times can probably be counted on the fingers on one hand, two at a stretch), so is hardly an internet fiend or p2p hosting magnate.

 

[Overdriven]

I can't really give help here, as I don't know the law, but any chance you could say what client/place he was DLing it from? I'm assuming (guessing) it was Limewire? Has your friend phoned them about it? What ISP is he/she on? Because, if he's a small downloader, it would of been that specific item was being monitored.

The letter should give more information (BPI maybe) about who they are/who they're claiming for, because it could be fake.

 

[kirennia]

I had an interesting conversation with someone not so long ago who seemed adament that you can legally download stuff so long as it's deleted 24 hours after the initail download. I fail to see how this could be true.

Maybe one of the law buffs on here can confirm whether or not it's true but if it is, maybe that's a nice loophole to exploit. Afterall they have no way of knowing whether you deleted it within that time period or not unless they illegally accessed your computer after your download via tracking or whatever.



Other then that, I'd just make sure there is absolutely nothing pirated in your friends home including that file (better safe then sorry) and ignore the letter. With a clean machine, they wouldn't go to the trouble of deep scanning your hard disk for the sake of one game.

Just out of interest, where did your friend get this game from? Maybe I could tell a friend not to go there in the future.

 

[Mey]

What are they claiming? Loss of earning? Damages? etc..

Also the "fake" sounds like a good one to check out. If your unsure about it, don't ring the telephone number given on the letter, google for the firm instead and check it matches (or yellow pages).

 

[Naetha]

The site was www.gametorrents.com, the ISP was BE unlimited. The letter is very detailed and checks out, so unlikely to be a fake.

 

[Naetha]

They are claiming for infringement of copyright.

 

[Overdriven]

I wonder if you could get away with "I lost my disks, but have proof of purchase" as you mentioned. £500 for something like that is stupid. I wonder why they targeted your friend though, surely they'd have bigger people to go after? It's not a new game is it?

 

[Uara]

rite, well if my dear Papa gets back from the shops soonish I shall pose the question to him as he is infact a lawyer and shall see what he says!! But infringement of copyright is the right term. My friend got a letter from his ISP first saying unless u stop downloading music they would report him to the BMI. Freaked him the hell out. He's now stealing me and my mates cd as he's deleted most of his music off his pc.

 

[Lamp]

First of all, don't do anything until you've verified the legitimacy of the solicitors. Ring them up. Then double check by searching on the internet & treble check they're kosher from the Law Society's website.

Assuming its 100% all above board, take professional legal advice as soon as possible. Do not just hand over the cash ! You will need to get a fully qualified solicitor (and not just make do with any advice your mate down the pub tells you). They'll be able to write them a letter, telling them that they're now acting for you and should be able to buy you some time.

Don't ignore the letter - just in case its genuine.
Do not send the letter back with "I will pay" on it.
Don't start sending dodgy photocopies of anything.

You need to get a professional solicitor on board. Ideally someone with media law experience. Its worth paying a bit more for the right legal advice. If you go to your average scruffy high street solicitor who only does immigration, housing, wills and the odd bit of legal aid work down the nick, they're not going to be particularly expert.

 

[Naetha]

Surely if my friend ignores the letter they can just claim it was never delivered? Chances are this was just part of a greater mailshot, and they are expecting a reasonably high proportion to be ignored? It wasn't sent by recorded delivery or anything, so no proof of receipt.

 

[Lamp]

I wouldn't risk it.

Even if you pretend that you didn't receive it, the fact that someone else has proof that you've been downloading media illegally is enough cause to start legal action. They don't have to wait for you to acknowledge receipt of their initial letter.

It could be a scam. But from what I've read, you seem to think its genuine, which in my books makes it at least worth a few phone calls and some checks on the internet - if nothing else.

It costs nothing to first of all check the law firm out.

If you find that you can't get through to the firm after many attempts, and you can't find them on the net, and the Law Society doesn't recognise them, then you can ignore the letter.

Otherwise, get legal advice.

 

[megadave]

If i remember correctly i got a similar letter when i downloaded Crank (forgot i had, didnt even unzip it ffs ) and i just tried to forget in the hope it would go away and it did. Not saying you should do the same thing but atleast it'll give you some hope

 

[Tay]

Ello folks

Wondered if I could get a bit of advice.

My friend received a letter yesterday from a firm of solicitors saying that they had been given my friend's IP address from their ISP saying that they had downloaded a copy of a game illegaly. They requested £500 out of court settlement plus signatures on a disclaimer stating that they would delete all files relating to the download, and never be naughty again.

What should my friend do? They never actually installed the game (in fact didn't even realise they'd got it until they checked) and obviously never played it or made it available for further download.

From what I can see, there are several options.

1) Ignore the letter altogether - maybe they'll go away. If they do follow up, then claim the letter was never delivered in the first place.

2) Send back the letter with the disclaimer signed, but crossing out the "I will pay you £500" bit.

3) Challenge it using some legal loophole due to not making it available for upload, not installing it etc. (I have yet to find that loophole though!)

4) Send a letter back with a photocopy of (another friend's ) receipt for the game, purchased before the download took place.

All advice appreciated

I'm not Solicitor but if you are in the UK I would suggest you do several things.

1. Reply to the letter asking where and how the private information was gathered (eg:home address). My understanding is that ISP cannot divulge that information unless a warrant has been issued. Data protection act etc.

2. Ask them how the IP address was obtained? What corroborating evidence do they have to link that IP address to your friend. This goes to the first question also - how did they get the info.

3. Admit nothing, the onus is on them to provide evidence that your friends IP was in use by him at the time and it was used to illegally "share" the game. - The fact that the game has been downloaded is neither here nor there, your friend could argue that they already had the game and this was a backup copy. I assume it was downlaoded via Bit Torrent?

I find it highly irregular that the letter was not sent recorded.

Also I'd like to see the wording of the document and understand how the game was downloaded originally. Gaming companies are not beyond the law and are not allowed to break the law to obtain a conviction/arrest.

Hope to see some more info.

Sounds like a wind up to be quite honest. Hope that helps

I would personally go see the citizens advice bureau and seek advice on the points above, you mention it was quite detailed letter but I strong feel that somebody is seriously pushing their luck, there are some some aspects of the law that you simply cannot contract out eg: the ISP saying we can pass your info to a law firm representing a gaming company etc etc

If the police need a warrant you can bet yer pants the Solicitors need as much. A solicitor will not charge you for advice if you pop into see them, if they take on the case then it'll cost you cash.

 

[Downanael]

This kinda reminds me from when that american copyright company(RIA or something?) sended letters to basically every student who had internet. Can't really give advice thought.

 

[Shagrat]

Don't ignore the letter first of, it could get really messy.

There are a number of issues here, they are claiming your friends downloaded it because they have his IP address logged.

But:

1) Does anyone else share his net connection.

2) Does he have children.

3) Does he use a router, and if so is it using WEP or no security at all.

If it's a shared connection how can they prove it was specifically your friend who downloaded the software. If he has a WEP enabled router, it can also be argued that the download was just drive-by from someone else. It has been proven that WEP security lasts about 15 seconds before breaking with some very easy tools.

There's been a lot of discussion of this subject over on The Register, and theyve had quite a few legal peeps with media experience on giving advice about what to do in these situations.

I'll see if I can find the discussions later on.

 

[Mey]

Also if you reply to it make sure you don't admit anything (sounds silly but loads of people probably forget lol).

 

[Tay]

Don't ignore the letter first of, it could get really messy.

There are a number of issues here, they are claiming your friends downloaded it because they have his IP address logged.

But:

1) Does anyone else share his net connection.

2) Does he have children.

3) Does he use a router, and if so is it using WEP or no security at all.

If it's a shared connection how can they prove it was specifically your friend who downloaded the software. If he has a WEP enabled router, it can also be argued that the download was just drive-by from someone else. It has been proven that WEP security lasts about 15 seconds before breaking with some very easy tools.

There's been a lot of discussion of this subject over on The Register, and theyve had quite a few legal peeps with media experience on giving advice about what to do in these situations.

I'll see if I can find the discussions later on.

The bill payer is entirely responsible for his/her net connection and the securing of it.

Ignorance is no plea of innocence.

 

[georgie]

Wouldn't bother replying tbh, any legal lettery type stuff not sent by registered post means shit.

"Yes Your Honour, I did send a letter to the defendant outlining all the allegations, no really I did... You don't need proof, just believe me."

 

[Golena]

It sounds slightly too much like someone has simply downloaded some malicious software onto their machine and is now trying to extract some easy money from it?

 

[AngelHeal]

tbh semble an army and take over your goverment..

ill bet they drop the 500 pound fine

 

[Overdriven]

The bill payer is entirely responsible for his/her net connection and the securing of it.

Ignorance is no plea of innocence.

You know Virgin have actually said something different? They're aware of how many end users use their service and don't realise how much passwords for WEP/WAP/WPK help, was on news a while back (google news) saying that users who download, even though it's their line, aren't _allways_ the ones responsable.

People need to be made more aware of the legal implications of the issues tbh.

Hope the issue works out, some advice here has been quite good ('specially the looking and writing bits)

EDIT:

The only ever warning I got was because I downloaded MS office a while ago and they emailed me (GOOD customer support) and just asked me to stop, and if I did they might take legal action. I'm surprised they didn't emaill your friend first tbh.

 

[Tay]

You know Virgin have actually said something different? They're aware of how many end users use their service and don't realise how much passwords for WEP/WAP/WPK help, was on news a while back (google news) saying that users who download, even though it's their line, aren't _allways_ the ones responsable.

People need to be made more aware of the legal implications of the issues tbh.

Hope the issue works out, some advice here has been quite good ('specially the looking and writing bits)

EDIT:

The only ever warning I got was because I downloaded MS office a while ago and they emailed me (GOOD customer support) and just asked me to stop, and if I did they might take legal action. I'm surprised they didn't emaill your friend first tbh.

I take what Virgin say with a pinch of salt.

Afraid I have to disagree with you, F.A.S.T or the Authorities don't care who uses your connection. if that IP range is used to download iffy software or paedophilia the owner of that connection IS responsible.

I'm a comms manager for a large multinational and I am responsible according to F.A.S.T for everything that happens on our circuits known or unknown. This applies to home broadband otherwise everybody would simply say it wasnt them.

 

[Overdriven]

I'm not disagreeing Tay. I'm just pointing out what I read. I'm saying people NEED to be more aware with what's going on with their line. I mean, there was a unsecure network here I could of connected to go and caused them hell/issues, but I didn't. Now, it's secure

 

[tris-]

1) Ignore the letter altogether - maybe they'll go away. If they do follow up, then claim the letter was never delivered in the first place.

i can tell you in contract law that the letter doesnt need to be delivered. it just needs to be passed to the royal mail.
not sure how it applys here.

 

[Lamp]

I heard on the radio today that a games company are actually taking individuals to court here in the UK who download games illegally. Court cases are currently underway. They're demanding £750 plus costs for the breach of copyright on the downloaded game, which will take it over £1000.

These are the people who either ignored the letter or told them where to stick their letter. An out of court settlement for £500 is cheaper.

You can imagine if you've downloaded multiple copies of the game, or multiple copies of many games how the costs will spiral in court...

Its actually hapenning IRL. So treat the letter seriously and get legal advice !

 

[soze]

I was reading about this firm of solicitors bassically monitor downloads of a game and get all the ip address of downloaders then approach the owner and offer to sue. Its like ambulance chasing for the 21st century. If you can "prove" you own it are you not allowed backup copies?

 

[Lamp]

Have you ever noticed all that legal crap that pops up in a window whenever you install something, like a game ? Well thats the crap you need to read in order to find out what your legal purchase entitles you to do. All that legal guff is largely about protecting the intellectual property rights of the owner (the software publisher or original distributor of the licence) and restricting the licensee's (you) rights as far as making additional copies, distributing, and so on.

 

[Jeremiah]

The only game which I remember allowing you to make back up copies legally was Champ Man Italia =)

It seems that those using torrents may be in trouble for also providing games for others to download (and hence becoming a provider)

 

[Tay]

I heard on the radio today that a games company are actually taking individuals to court here in the UK who download games illegally. Court cases are currently underway. They're demanding £750 plus costs for the breach of copyright on the downloaded game, which will take it over £1000.

These are the people who either ignored the letter or told them where to stick their letter. An out of court settlement for £500 is cheaper.

You can imagine if you've downloaded multiple copies of the game, or multiple copies of many games how the costs will spiral in court...

Its actually hapenning IRL. So treat the letter seriously and get legal advice !

How did the "games" company get the persons details??

There is only one way I know and that's your ISP, even the BPI don't have the gonads to take on the legal system in the UK by illegally obtaining private & confidential information.

The data protection laws are there for a reason. Flagrant violation of those laws is not a wise move.

As you say legal or professional advice is always the best call.