lair

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Madkobold

Guest
Well then u just faled to see the whole point of this thread.

The casual player got 1 account, right ? No bb, no SM nothing but the char on that account

The casual player doesn't have the time it takes to lvl up more then 1 char to 50 (sometimes not even that) specially without lair.

What I don't understand is why some ppl are so fast in calling a discussion thread about a reality in this game for whine. I mean it is a fact that lair doesn't exist as it did before.

Can't you see that this is a headache for a lot of casual players ?

I can agree that lvl'ing up alts in yar is good for the rvr heavy guilds and ppl but it is not for the casual player they don't have access to that, so again can't u see what this thread is all about ?

Don't tell me that start ur own grp in lair thing, done that on numerous occasions but it all ends with key players move to yar...yeah the SM's the healers. I don't blame them it's fully understandable.

But to get to the point....the mechanism as the game is today makes it almost impossible for a newcomers (casual player) to the game to start a char from the beginning and lvl that char to 50 for rvr which is the goal for the majority of players.

If u again fail to see what this thread is all about....well then I would have to say that in my opinion you look at this game solely from ur own perspective and fail to see the bigger picture.
 
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Rulke-RM

Guest
If there was no uber SM groups at lair, no one would level there anymore. So surely a few missing out on the best xp in mid is better than all?

PS what have buffbots got to do with lair? afaik shaman (with decent 32+ aug) are accepted on list as there's a need for spec buffs
 
M

Madkobold

Guest
Originally posted by Rulke-RM
If there was no uber SM groups at lair, no one would level there anymore. So surely a few missing out on the best xp in mid is better than all?

I don't think anyone got anything against uber sm grp's as u call them.

The point is....lair doesn't exist as it did before and this is a headache for a lot of player, it is as simple as that.
 
W

Whisperess

Guest
There are quite a few other places to xp though, so lair isn't the only option. ( albeit, it's a good one )

Back in the good old days, before SM's had pbae and before end-regen, we still managed to get decent xp at lair. I simply can't see why you shouldn't be able to.

You also don't need SM's to xp at lair, so if you're afraid of losing them, don't invite them. Make balanced full tank groups and witness just how immensly more fun they are than PL groups. :D
 
C

Carlos Bananos

Guest
make a group with friends or smth an xp elsewhere.

this quote still stands

Originally posted by aginamist
If you can't make your own exping group you shouldn't be allowed to have a level 50 char, easy as that.



stop relying on others to make XPing possible as much.
 
A

agon

Guest
Originally posted by svartmetall
Doesn't take the brains of Hawking to see that buffbots are killing the population of REAL Shammies/Healers in the game; more buffbots = less spots for shammies/healers as selfish people can get buffs with no sharing of XP with others in what could have been a real group. Eventually the only shammies and healers around will be on the second accounts of people directly responsible for helping to kill the support class population of Midgard.

ehe?

I'm so sorry I bought a second account and made a bb, so I could farm in DF (example) and get gold faster than I would if I invited some random active non buffbot shaman.. damn I'm so selfish, and now I feel guilty

anyhow, I kinda agree and disagree on whether the SM lair grps are good or bad.. I would say that they are bad, but that's mainly because I don't have a 50 sm.. though, the most negative thing about it is the new players who are working on their first L50 char.. and here I can honestly say that I feel a bit sorry for them
but what can we do about it?
 
W

Weeping Willow

Guest
Beginners guide to daoc

1: Buy one account.
2: Start a pbae group, play a sm to level 50.
3: Buy another account.
4: Take the level 50 sm (with 49 suppression spec) and your leecher on the new account to lair and get to 50 in a week or less.
5: Take your new char and level up a buffbot on the first account.

Step 4 will give you lots of loot and chaindrops since you have two characters in group. Either sell those chaindrops or salvage them, I usually sold asterite/chain drops for 75% of the salvage vaule (I can give you a salvage worth list if you ask for it).

Step 5 if you do this buffbot levling in darkness falls with for example a savage it should be easy (done this from time to time), and if you feel that you need a healer for heals/stun ask a 45+ healer if he wants to join and do /auto s so that you get all the zeals (its you that are powerlevling him not other way), this way you get lots of cash again, salvage or sell the seals. 11g gold if you sell stacks of 250, or 14.9g if you salvage (not certain about 14.9g correct me if im wrong). Or if you play a healer get another 50 savage for example and split the seals or get a 45+ savage to powerlevel (again make him do /auto s)

If you don't know Midgard or the pbae-pet-pull I will post a link to a really good guide. PBAEhero's Pet Pull PBAE Hunting Guide

Edited: Added some stuff about gold and a link to PBAEheros petpulling guide.
 
S

schinkaar

Guest
That is indeed a good guide aginamist, altho u can make a tank-pbae preset grp aswell (and hence have access to all viable RvR classes). Thats my advice to newcomers, but getting a bb is always a good idea (cant get enuff of BB:s really). And if u are unsure what to play Aginamists advice is deff the way to go, there are ofc other good options ( /auto s in DF for to-hit), or general leeching with /auto s. Now when i exped (was a long time ago last chars was PL:ed thank god) I always put healers/useful stuff on friendslist, was nice and chatted and bla bla. This meant that ppl kept pm:ing me for grps, so i never really had much of a problem. If i ever got a bad spot on list (what i figured be more than 1h waiting) I simply made my own grps, and usually did alot better than the other grps.

So really cry me a fucking river, you are lazy and egoistic in my eyes the other players owe you nothing so stop turning to them with your problems. Unless ofc you want advice, then theres many to choose from.

And to those morons who whine about BB:s how do they ruin the game? Except the stealthscene that i dont care about.
 
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Weeping Willow

Guest
If someone grouped with me and he was utterly useless (in playing that is) but was willing to learn and asked what he did wrong I would happily group with him again. If he was utterly useless and thought he was gods gift to this game and wasn't willing to take advices I will never invite him again.

I updated my earlier guide with some money stuff and a link to PBAEheros guide to pet pull, everyone should watch it, it rocks :>
 
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riv

Guest
a lot of good points made, but it is unfortunate that the game has come to such a point where you need to level a sm or healer to 50 and buy another account on which to level the character you actually want, as some people have suggested- granted the sugggestion was constructive, i'm merely pointing out that its regrettable that the realm has got to this point.

maybe its the fact that i was away for 6 months that the whole situation seems so apparent.

there don't seem to be many low groups any more, people are making their way to the higher levels with borrowed buffbots, or being pl'd from scratch in lair.

as some people have said, getting a character from 0 - 50 through the standard grouping practices is becoming increasingly difficult. creating a firm group, not impossible, but more difficult than it used to be, especially 45-50 plus since healers/shammies/sms will usually opt for the powerlevelling of lair (and if i was in their place, i probably would too).

as for comments like this:

So really cry me a fucking river, you are lazy and egoistic in my eyes the other players owe you nothing so stop turning to them with your problems. Unless ofc you want advice, then theres many to choose from.

And to those morons who whine about BB:s how do they ruin the game?

The game is engineered around the abaility to group? yes? I am not a solo player, I am not a solo class, thus my character's nature is to fit into a group- essentially a support character.. so other players may not "owe" me anything, but the idea is mutual benefit, i.e. I need them, they need me.. everyone's happy. I never asked for a free ride. I never asked to be given anything, other than the opportunity to contribute to a group. Is that so bad? and does that deserve to be berrated? really?

and as for buffbots, if you can't work out how a drone replacing an actual character is to the detriment of the game.. then i'm wasting my time typing..
 
M

Madkobold

Guest
Originally posted by riv
a lot of good points made, but it is unfortunate that the game has come to such a point where you need to level a sm or healer to 50 and buy another account on which to level the character you actually want, as some people have suggested- granted the sugggestion was constructive, i'm merely pointing out that its regrettable that the realm has got to this point.


Have to agree. And in the long run it might hurt the game itself if it can't attract and support new players.

PS.
You whine over what u see as other peoples whine, what does that make you ?
DS.
 
K

kathal_tdd

Guest
Join a guild.
Join an alliance.
Join some hunts.
Make a group.
Stfu.
Lair is 1 out of 100 places to gain uber XP and now you say the game is ruined??
If YOU can't get XP its just because YOU are too stupid to do something about your problem.
So what if Lair have changed.
Can you claim a spot?? No.
Can you decide how the ppl at a spot should kill the mobs. LOL, no.
Can you do something about it?? Sure, just THINK a little and you will come up with a way to gain XP.
 
S

schinkaar

Guest
Originally posted by riv


The game is engineered around the abaility to group? yes? I am not a solo player, I am not a solo class, thus my character's nature is to fit into a group- essentially a support character.. so other players may not "owe" me anything, but the idea is mutual benefit, i.e. I need them, they need me.. everyone's happy. I never asked for a free ride. I never asked to be given anything, other than the opportunity to contribute to a group. Is that so bad? and does that deserve to be berrated? really?

and as for buffbots, if you can't work out how a drone replacing an actual character is to the detriment of the game.. then i'm wasting my time typing..

You have the opportunity to contribute to a group, a BB enhances a group without replacing anyone, im not calling you a moron because you play a support char. Im calling you a moron because you fail to see that BB:s are needed aswell, and that they fill a separate function. Also id call you a moron (again) for not realising that a game can be played in other ways than the way it was "engineered" to be played.
 
M

Madkobold

Guest
Originally posted by kathal_tdd

Stfu.
If YOU can't get XP its just because YOU are too stupid to do something about your problem.

I just don't get it.....why can't some of you ppl keep a friendly tone ? Why do you feel an urge to insult ppl ?

I got 2 accounts a lvl 50 SM and a lvl 50 bb and 4 other lvl 50'is
and of course ppl can play the way they want to and do whatever makes them happy. (that's how I play this game anyways) This post is not about that.... it's plain and simple about how the game mechanism have changed in a way that doesn't benefit the game in the long run. That's my opinion and I feel that I'm entitled to have an opinion without getting insulted.

See, u can make a post without being rude and insult ppl !
 
S

schinkaar

Guest
Originally posted by Madkobold
I just don't get it.....why can't some of you ppl keep a friendly tone ? Why do you feel an urge to insult ppl ?

I got 2 accounts a lvl 50 SM and a lvl 50 bb and 4 other lvl 50'is
and of course ppl can play the way they want to and do whatever makes them happy. (that's how I play this game anyways) This post is not about that.... it's plain and simple about how the game mechanism have changed in a way that doesn't benefit the game in the long run. That's my opinion and I feel that I'm entitled to have an opinion without getting insulted.

See, u can make a post without being rude and insult ppl !

Theres been a million of these "i cant get XP bla bla" posts, the reason (atleast mine) for being rude is that i dont see these ppl as different indivduals, but as 1 big idiot. I know this is wrong, but thats still how it is.
 
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Weeping Willow

Guest
I still think people seem to do this lair threads because they are either jealous, postfarming or stupid.
 
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riv

Guest
Theres been a million of these "i cant get XP bla bla" posts, the reason (atleast mine) for being rude is that i dont see these ppl as different indivduals, but as 1 big idiot. I know this is wrong, but thats still how it is

ah ha, and there's a million "stfu n00b" style replies. constructive advice is always accepted. acerbic, and attacking comments are pointless and simply make you look more and more stupid with each sentence. There's no need to be rude.

A further point, if you're fed up with these posts, why reply at all? especially in a provocative and insulting manner?

You have the opportunity to contribute to a group, a BB enhances a group without replacing anyone, im not calling you a moron because you play a support char. Im calling you a moron because you fail to see that BB:s are needed aswell, and that they fill a separate function. Also id call you a moron (again) for not realising that a game can be played in other ways than the way it was "engineered" to be played.

A BB enhances a group.. indeed, but the number of times I've seen tanks running around with a kolbold stuck to their ass doesn't bare counting. Fair to say that without that BB that tank would probably be levelling with a group? With a BB its feasible to go from 1 - 50 on your own quite easily, which turns classes which are not traditionally solo classes into such- obviously that class was not designed to be played as a solo, since it needs a buffbot to make that possible.

BuffBots are not, as you say, "needed". They are a convenience made possible by utilising multiple accounts. Calling me a moron for having an opinion on the matter... ok...

The point I am trying to make is simply that constant power levelling is harmful to groups- its simple mathematics; the more people being powerlevelled in whatever sense, or soloing with a buffbot, the less people there are to form groups? Furthermore, the more people who have buffbots, the less true played Seers are needed by those people? Again simple maths.


And kathal_tdd... Obviously there are other ways and places to get XP- I could solo greens all the way to 50, if i was so inclined. My point was that a good xp spot is being whored by the same power levellers day in day out. Some people taking a shortcut having a detrimental effect on players who only have one account, etc. Thats simply my opinion. Its easy to sit back with your level 50 and throw jibes and harsh remarks, but getting there in the traditional manner is not as easy or enjoyable as it once was. That is all.
 
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schinkaar

Guest
Originally posted by riv
ah ha, and there's a million "stfu n00b" style replies. constructive advice is always accepted. acerbic, and attacking comments are pointless and simply make you look more and more stupid with each sentence. There's no need to be rude.

A further point, if you're fed up with these posts, why reply at all? especially in a provocative and insulting manner?

I gave you constructive advice, i also pointed out what was wrong with your opinion. Then i flamed you aswell, and i never said i was fed up with these posts, infact id say i enjoy them.


A BB enhances a group.. indeed, but the number of times I've seen tanks running around with a kolbold stuck to their ass doesn't bare counting. Fair to say that without that BB that tank would probably be levelling with a group? With a BB its feasible to go from 1 - 50 on your own quite easily, which turns classes which are not traditionally solo classes into such- obviously that class was not designed to be played as a solo, since it needs a buffbot to make that possible.

That tank rather whould join a group, soloing with a BB is not as good as a good group, and grouping is usually more fun. That tank however do have a viable option (not for me, i cant stand soloing anyway but many can) to MAKING a group, again if he was invited to a group he prolly whould join it (aslong as it was efficient atleast). Not only that but now he can also XP at odd times when its more or less impossible to make/get groups.

BuffBots are not, as you say, "needed". They are a convenience made possible by utilising multiple accounts. Calling me a moron for having an opinion on the matter... ok...

The point I am trying to make is simply that constant power levelling is harmful to groups- its simple mathematics; the more people being powerlevelled in whatever sense, or soloing with a buffbot, the less people there are to form groups? Furthermore, the more people who have buffbots, the less true played Seers are needed by those people? Again simple maths.

Sadly your simple maths whould result in alot of linear algeabra, mainly you need a dynamical system where all classes are variables (and the population/lvl of them aswell) and some sort of comparing all possible grp compositions against eachothers individual exp rates, add to that that time of day is a factor aswell and your looking into computations that whould take a long time to do.

Now what you have done is applyed common sense (yours), and again you have made mistakes in your reasoning.
1) The more people exping with BB:s means they can exp at whatever times they wish. This is not the case with groups, who do require 8 ppl to be online at the same time.
2) There must be a certain balance of classes in a group, with BB:s PL:ing you might aswell say that these ppl are the "excess" ppl, that whould not fit into a group. Again you have nothing that supports your claim that this is not the case.
3) You ignore the scenarios where there is a limited supply of seers (altho a BB is not as good as a real player it does help in the worst case scenario)
4) The common exp grps usually want 2 seers (1 pac+1 shammie in all caster types, 1 aug+1shammie in all CC types) and many preffer 3, with a BB u can add 1 dmg dealer more, who gets xp instead of a seer. In most cases the BB will stay oog and benefit the xp of the entire grp.

Again i think ill stick with calling you a moron, altho i refute your statement that it is because you express your opinions. I say its because your opinions are those of a moron.
 
D

Duzzy

Guest
PL & BB's is one of the best gifts Daoc got, so why waste it ? :clap:
 
R

riv

Guest
thing is, whether you're right or wrong, you've still come across as a complete prick. congratulations.
 
P

phillies

Guest
I have to agree with the PL people on this on I'm afraid :(
I have neither a lvl 50 healer / SM / BB or anything of that sort but I DO however remember back in the day when there was no pbaoe and no end regen, and the fun we had :)
If you stop thinking "Oh I could have gotten 3 bubs now instead of the ½ one I have now :( " And start thinking "Ok, I may not be lvl 51 yet but this has been a nice night in the compagny of good people", the whole leveling experience will be much smoother and I bet you, you will enjoy your character more. So far I have gotten to 46 (mostly soloed and grouped "the old fashion way") And this I have done without having internet at my home (untill monday that is). I do know however that 47-50 is going to be a pain but isnt that some of the things in this game that makes us (read: me) enjoy the chars all that more when they eventually DO hit 50??
The people with the BB's and the SM and such have their fun with that, and of course they will be the ones who get the huge piles of gold and the 300 lvl 50 chars, but do they have more fun than the littul people <the kobbie said>? I highly doubt it !!!
If lair is camped by PL groups go to vanern or raumarik or where-ever you want to go... There is lots of spots to xp even without end regen and pbaoe, it just takes a little longer that's it but seriously, who cares!
Some people like to get as big as possible as fast as possible, some like to take it slow and enjoy the little things in the game, all play in the fashion that they enjoy the most wich is fine!! (if you want fast go with aginamists advice he seem to know what he is talking about)
Oh and the lair thing <grins>... When it was possible for anyone to go to lair everyone was allways whining and bitching about it, now that they cant go there, all of the sudden they miss it all to hell. Do you even remember how it was to xp at lair? and how frustrated people was downthere? (never xp'd there my self but have seen an irl friend xp downthere and that allmost made me not begin with daoc in the first place).
Besides newbies are generally nicer and more appriciative (spelling?) than the 1337 whirling rr10 uber gankers.
To sum up on all this rambling .... Let people play this game as THEY see fit, and if you find the game too intolerable to play because of the reasons posted earlier in this thread and hundreds of others like it, don't... simple as that!
And just to make it all worse... When I hit 50 I will make a shadowblade and go rvr without a buffbot ... Start gasping for air gentlemen :p
 
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Weeping Willow

Guest
If I had a spot in my pl group I would invite Phillies after that post. It was so nice :)
 
X

Xandax

Guest
Originally posted by phillies
<snip>
And just to make it all worse... When I hit 50 I will make a shadowblade and go rvr without a buffbot ... Start gasping for air gentlemen :p

Hehehe - been there, tried it and died :D .... (somebody donate a respec stone please :D )


But seriously:

I am one of the peopel that like the Lair, and I did so even back in the old days before pb-aoe and end.regen and all that new stuff :).

But I have to agree with people here - I am no fan of buffbots and I feel they ruin much in the game (both PvE and RvR), but it is a *game* and people should be allowed to enjoy it as they see fit. And BBs are an integrated part of the game now, and nobody really expects it to change - due to the amount of revenue it creates.

I personally have soloed much of all my character levels (was about 80% on my deleted thane, and about 90% of my SB, and am in the current process of doing it with other chars) but I can fully understand people wanting to level faster and thus doing so with secondary accounts.
 
O

old.Kerosene

Guest
For every buffbot, there's one less person to group with :(

So yes, levelling 1-50 is harder now even if you make your own groups all the way. Making groups is a complete swine because 1 in 3 people I ask to join will reply 'Sorry mate, soloing'. Which translates to 'Sorry mate, PL'ing'. :(

I'm from Hib and the situation is exactly the same there now. We have Fins which sounds like your Lair and trying to get a group there is a nightmare so many people just don't bother trying now. Fins will soon be as dead as the lair.
 
R

Rulke-RM

Guest
On a side note, don't expect things to improve when you hit 50...
Some classes just don't get RvR groups anymore, and i'm afraid RM is one of them :(
 
K

kathal_tdd

Guest
Sad, because RMs are a really cool char if its played right.:cool:
 
X

Xandax

Guest
Originally posted by old.Kerosene
For every buffbot, there's one less person to group with :(

So yes, levelling 1-50 is harder now even if you make your own groups all the way. Making groups is a complete swine because 1 in 3 people I ask to join will reply 'Sorry mate, soloing'. Which translates to 'Sorry mate, PL'ing'. :(
<snip>

Just cause people say they are soloing - doesn't neasecarily mean that they are powerleveling with a buffbot. Some people (like me) solo a lot eventhough we have not buffbot.
 
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shatar

Guest
I haven't had the energy to read all the posts in this thread but I get the general idea of it.
I come from playing US daoc for quite some time and I have never during my time seen anyone exping in malmohus/lair there. It is a great PL idea but I got to 50 w/o so it aint impossible. There is a great addon with some wonderful caves called SI(Shrouded Isles). One of my favourite dungeons in SI is Trollheim(TH), it lies NE from bjarken if I am not mistaken. Great 45+ exp with right grps, say like 3-4 tanks, shammy, healer and pbt runie for maximum advantage, just make sure you chain mobs in Kaos Rooms (and keep chaining). Sure it aint lair exp but it's exp, and pretty good one at that. Another great SI dungeon is Iarnvidurs Lair, which lies in iarnwood a but away from hagall. Iarn lair is great since it is rarely, if ever, camped and has some sweet mobs to camp. Real great for both sm and tank grps. Tuscaran Glacier is another renowed cave in SI, our epic cave. The skeletons at entrance, lesser frostbound skeletons, are great exp and can easily be wtfpwned with sm/ae grps, but can also be tanked down w/o much problem.
Second. Lair is not dead, not by a long shot. Since I have started playing here on europe servers I have tried both yar and lair and I must say that yar is so sub-par to lair thats it's laughable. Lair is: Better exp, eaiser pulling, more mobs. The only thing thats not great with lair is DT, but it's no problem to work around it and a break is needed now and then making DT quite useful.
As so many ppl have said it is in no way impossible to get an exp grp started, you just gotta work some for it.
Just my 2 cents.
 

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