Just wondering...

[old.D3-]

Whats the deal with points?

( Excluding clan games in this post because teamplay comes into it hence points being worthless for obvious reasons )

My role in Tribes2 has always been Base Disruption.. I guess I love the stealth... I don't barge in as a heavy and just spray mortars everywhere, get killed, respawn, wait for someone to take me back to enemy base and repeat... I use scout most times, cloak pack being a fave amongst sensor jammer and the old satchal charge for a hit and run... I stay in the bases, destroy, hide, wait, destroy again..

Thing with this is I get a lot of points, and although it's the only way to get noticed ( I mean seriously, tell me how many clans approach someone at the bottom of a scorechart with -5 ? ) but here's where the olde 'Tribes attitude' comes into play with people going "it's not the points that count, it's the teamplay"

Well very true, Tribes2 is a game that cannot be played without teamplay.

For example: Enemy takes out your base > no one repairs > cappers can't change profiles > base disruption can't change profiles to fight back hence giving the enemy the chance to launch a wave of attacks > Bomber comes along and wipes out your turrets > Havoc drops off a bunch of heavies to take up home in your generator room and so forth..

It's all about teamplay but not many people do this 'teamplay' in publics, most go off and do their own thing, their role ( so teamplay does come in, just the communication and planning side thats out the window )

I refer to:
http://msgstore.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14221

Getting back to points though...

I quote GateCreeper from IRC ( #tainted )

<@GateCreeper> Points don't count period.

Then tell me, please because I need to know..
Why are individual points in Tribes2?
Why not just an all round team score?

I have come to the following conclusions:

• Clans, since the beginning of online gaming have always watched and approached the player at the top of the scoreboard... admitidly in Tribes2 this is a tad unfair, as my job for keeping the enemy base offline rewards me well but what about people who defend the flag? repair the base? shoot down enemy hovercraft? ... needs to be worked on.
  
• Then again, points serve as a guide... If I destroyed two enemy gens, 3 player placed turrets, 2 invent stations and the vehicle pad thats around 37 points.. Maybe the points system is unfair? but then... maybve it isn't?
  
  After all, infiltrating an enemy base, dodging defences and using stealth and planning to move between the enemy without them even knowing requires skill, knowledge and knowing when to strike...
  
  Repairing a base requires.... .. . .... a repair pack..
  
  Capturing the flag, in my opinion it's harder work than taking out a base ( but I find taking out bases easy due to it being my role - and I don't just mean in publics ) but at the end, your rewarded with 50 points... compare a 50 point flag capture to 37 points for taking out pretty much all of a average base... Maybe the points system is fair, rewarding those who do the hardest tasks.. hence why the individual points system exists...
  
  Points don't mean anything?
  
  ... I think not.
  

 

[Mongrol]

IMO points mean a lot. I consider them one of the main contributing factors to the complete lack of teamplay found on public servers. They should be done away with.

 

[old.$aw$aLL]

Nice piece D33..
When I base rape, I'm so focused that I hardly look at the points I rack up. When I do happen to see it I just think *kewl.* Now infiltrating...I could see looking at stats before I would recruite him. Hope this helps.

 

[old.D3-]

hmm, no one got anything else to say on the matter?

I was expecting to spark off a conversation about the current points systems, peoples individual opinions and how things could be changed to suit the majority

 

[Custy]

I think personal Scores should be scrapped from team games altogether but they are the only thing that would attract people from games like CS (yes i know most of them don't play as a team but a game needs an ever expanding community to stay alive)

 

[old.Hive]

its easy to say "scrap points" etc. but as a clan leader they're important....

ok we know the system isnt perfect, but its the main way to judge performances. How is a new clan supposed to recruit?

personally, i made note of certain players & monitored their play....how else are unclanned people to get initially noticed?

 

[Mongrol]

Whats more important? Finally creating decent, balanced and fun teamplay public servers or maintaining a quick and easy (and arguably flawed) way for a select number of individuals to chose players for their own private teams?

 

[old.D3-]

The latter

Seriously though, why not take it a step further and dump the idea of clans all together ?

 

[Custy]

or even ban llamas and non team players, then we wouldn't need clans to have a good game.

 

[Mongrol]

Ah sorry. My mistake. I thought you were wanting a serious topical debate on the subject.

 

[old.D3-]

Whats more important? Finally creating decent, balanced and fun teamplay public servers or maintaining a quick and easy (and arguably flawed) way for a select number of individuals to chose players for their own private teams?

Based on a simple two line post reply with seemingly no effort and enough holes in it for me to pick at from now till past christmas?

You may wish to try again.. this time in detail, with information, ideas, what you think could achieve the former cause you know as well as I do that without the individual points system, things might be better but not everyones going to fall into place, your team leader isn't going to join the map 10 minutes into the game, start spouting off orders trying to get some team organisation and everyones gonna perk up and suddenly listen to him..

** Joins the game: Ace Rimmer
[D33] Look, he can be our team leader! Help us, we need guidance!
[Ace Rimmer] No problem my misguided friends
[D33] What a guy!
[SomeBloke] What a guy!
[And Another] What a guy!
[Capper] What a guy!



..

try again.

 

[old.KmA_MANTIS]

Eh!
I like that!

ACE RIMMER! Pet detective - or something.



But seriously...

Pubs are a waste of space most of the time and nothing any of you do can make them better cause the large majority of people that annoy you in game will NEVER even read this post.

 

[old.D3-]

ACE RIMMER = Red Dwarf's "Hero"

What a guy

 

[old.KmA_MANTIS]

Ah...

Smoke me kipper... etc


I thought he had a different name to that?

hmmm...

 

[Mongrol]

Originally posted by D3-


Based on a simple two line post reply with seemingly no effort and enough holes in it for me to pick at from now till past christmas?

Go on then.

 

[old.D3-]

Whats more important? Finally creating decent, balanced and fun teamplay public servers or maintaining a quick and easy (and arguably flawed) way for a select number of individuals to chose players for their own private teams?

Well I thought you'd of taken the inititive but..

• How can you prove that removing the individual points system would increase teamplay on public servers? Surely with the state of online gaming today, everyone wants to get something out of what they do.. with this in mind, surely it would lead to less people playing the game?
  
• Most public servers are fun, people with common sense don't expect to join them and have the entire team playing like it was a match between Yautja and Mirage, people join publics and do the one thing they can do... they play their roles.. they practise. If enough people join where everyone plays a different role ( and only on slight occasion have I not seen this happen ) then you have defense, offense, cappers, repair crews and base disruption units.. thus making a proper team.. with the only things lacking being communication and understanding between teammate.. but as long as people play their roles then there's always a team.
  
• Publics offers people a way to let their hair down when playing, to not take things as seriously as you would in a clan game.. so the balance of publics and clan games is right is it not?
  
  If you want organised then you join a clan, you play in clan matches and you get some of the most fun and organised matches you'll ever play, with high spirits all round, no teamkillers and everyone playing the role they're meant to with total communication between them and everyone else on their team..
  
• Which brings me to my next point and your second part of the argument... people playing their best, to get noticed by the clans.. well if there was no individual points system then how would clans choose? stalk members of their team perhaps? oooo, how about sitting in observer mode for countless hours a night and watching random people play and making notes, seeing if they've got "what it takes" to be part of a clan..
  
  Clans are what bring the organisation to Tribes2, there's always teamwork whether it be a public or a clan match... but it's the organisation people want... clans gives this, publics do not, individual points system or not..
  
  You want organisation? then you want clans..
  You want clans? then you need people..
  You want people? then you need to see who's out there..
  
• Plus you say the points system is flawed? maybe.. there is no real answer to this to be honest.. is it? is it not?
  
  However, please refer to my first post where I said
  
  

  Then again, points serve as a guide... If I destroyed two enemy gens, 3 player placed turrets, 2 invent stations and the vehicle pad thats around 37 points.. Maybe the points system is unfair? but then... maybve it isn't?
  
  After all, infiltrating an enemy base, dodging defences and using stealth and planning to move between the enemy without them even knowing requires skill, knowledge and knowing when to strike...
  
  Repairing a base requires.... .. . .... a repair pack..
  
  Capturing the flag, in my opinion it's harder work than taking out a base ( but I find taking out bases easy due to it being my role - and I don't just mean in publics ) but at the end, your rewarded with 50 points... compare a 50 point flag capture to 37 points for taking out pretty much all of a average base... Maybe the points system is fair, rewarding those who do the hardest tasks.. hence why the individual points system exists...

I could go on but I think I've typed enough there to keep you going in your next reply

 

[Mongrol]

Originally posted by D3-
How can you prove that removing the individual points system would increase teamplay on public servers? Surely with the state of online gaming today, everyone wants to get something out of what they do.. with this in mind, surely it would lead to less people playing the game?

We can`t prove it. Noone can unless its put into practise. We can only attempt to imagine the behaviour of a public team where they don`t get points. On such a server they`d only be 2 objective. Get their flag, keep your flag. There`s no points for baserape, turret farming, capping, grabs defence anything. Anyone playing a game does it to achieve an objective. There being only two objectives, and the only way to achieve it is to work as a team, I`d hope players would join a server be able to spot what role needs filled and drop into it. If players want to do their own clanrole then fair enough, I`m sure a mad slavering public team of 16 would have enough loose cannons to move role and fill the gap. Imo a game of this sort would instill a discipline in new players much more quickly than the current pubbies we have now. Everyone is going to be more aware of what wins and loses a map. So when that flag goes walkies, there`s going to be efforts made to keep it on the base.

If you want organised then you join a clan, you play in clan matches and you get some of the most fun and organised matches you'll ever play, with high spirits all round, no teamkillers and everyone playing the role they're meant to with total communication between them and everyone else on their team..

This is denying unclanned players the experience and buzz of Tribes2 as it was meant to be played. I`m not saying I want pubs to be as intensive as clangames, but they should at least contain teamplay. At the moment less than 5% of maps have this.

Which brings me to my next point and your second part of the argument... people playing their best, to get noticed by the clans.. well if there was no individual points system then how would clans choose? stalk members of their team perhaps? oooo, how about sitting in observer mode for countless hours a night and watching random people play and making notes, seeing if they've got "what it takes" to be part of a clan..

Lets have a look at how they choose just now. Does LeaderA survey the scoreboard and track the top scoring players? No. What happens is LeaderA notices PlayersB nicking the flag all the time, or stopping them capping all the time, or just being a bloody good player in the field all the time. LeaderA notices the player in the battlefield, not in the scoreboard. By your own argument in your initial post, the scoreboard means fuck all. I`m a good player and designed my skill to fill a multiple of roles yet my scoring on the table varies greatly depending on what skill I`m playing. I joined Yautja through the most common means of clan recruitment too. I asked to get in. The majority of players aren`t head hunted.
PlayerB asks LeaderA if they can get in clan. LeaderA asks around for opinions on PlayerA, if anyone played against them, what clans they were in before, etc.. LeaderA will check superstats if PlayerA uses it. LeaderA might remember PlayerB from pubbies and have an idea already of the players skill. LeaderA will put PlayerB on trial in one of 2 scrims to see how the perform.
That`s how players are recruited, a lot more involved than just looking at scores. Personal scores were ok in the days of Quake and UT, but in Tribes it means very little.

Clans are what bring the organisation to Tribes2, there's always teamwork whether it be a public or a clan match... but it's the organisation people want... clans gives this, publics do not, individual points system or not..

Ah, now you`re saying something you can`t prove. Personally, I would love to see a mod ran for a month or so with scoring removed completely (not appearing at map end like the T1 effort) just to see what happens.

 

[old.D3-]

I'll reply soon

 

[old.Bibe]

If you remove the points, you remove individual incentive, which will stop new players (imo)
good players usually get a good score, bad players dont, and everyone knows how to differentiate between them.
Headhunting aside, points are a way to prove you are doing something, and imo, it wont improve the game at all. At the moment a successfull and coordinated attack will ensure more points, as you will most likely make your objective, and will have the coordination to deal with a semi organised defence, which will mean more kills, more camping etc etc. Does this happen ? No.
Clan Wars + Points - They dont matter
Pubs - They dont bother any decent player.
imo: its only the newbies who worry about points.
points arent incredibly accurate, but they at least give you an incentive to do something.. *why should i repair the gens? its boring + im not rewarded* I doubt you will see many newbs repairing the gen, and dont spiel me bullshit about how you always do it, cos 99.95% of the players 99% of the time dont rep the gens unless they absolutely have to.. ie: there are no newbs to repair stuff.
Yes the point system is flawed, and I dont think its that great... But if you remove the points, you will remove a lot of cool things about the game. I understand that piloting + repairing isnt rewarded a lot.. But they are a lot more necessary than something like destroying the gens etc. Many more people are around to rep the gens, than are to kill the enemies, so they are rewarded as such.
Many people camp the flag on a pub with a satch, rather than something that will work in a cw.
The person who is able to sneak around the defence (of which there is usually a lot) and cap the flag is rewarded + its hard.

personally, i will keep playing, and i dont think that a points system will improve the teamplay. How often do you see 4 cappers in a pub, and there are only say.. 20 ppl there. + 1or2 of the cappers decides to go LD.. Not often.. pubs are there to practice + if I go to a pub to practice, i will practice what i went there to do; and although it will be something to help the team, I wont attack if i want to practice my sniping, and likewise, I wont LD when i want to HO.
Pubs are a place to practice, and there is no teamwork there + there wont be, ever. The best you can hope for is a good game, where everyone has some skill, and then maybe you will go off + change roles because it will be challenging + fun, as opposed to a total slaughter cos you are the only person doing it.

Pubs are shite, and i still want a europub, as there are too many tks, wannabes, newbies, stubborn bastards etc (and yes, this does include point chasers, but not so much anymore) and general bad teamwork. There are so many reasons clans > pubs, and if you cant see that, there isnt much hope
Pubs wont be clan play, + you will never get good teamplay on an open pub, not until t2 is dying + there is no influx of new players.
Exclusive pubs imo are the way to go; and you will see good nordic players just refresh ymir over + over for a spare space to play.. This is what it should be like.. Not like when you join bw + the guy with the satchel on the flag keeps driving off the guys tank cos he is spamming the 1st guys satchel.
I havent really thought any of this through + im sure it contains many oxymoronic statements and conflicting arguments. my basic point is: removing points isnt the way to improve the gameplay. Its not like siege, where the goals are pretty clear. In ctf there are many, many different ways to do the same thing, and so many different strategies work, as well as needing an adjustable team size, for O and D. siege works cos its all about gens + switches. Its relatively easy to organise + everyone is automatically attacking or defending. The choice is a little more limited, but the goals are virtually always the same, and the steps to it are always the same. Attack- gens attack - switch. On ctf its a lot more hazy, and a lot less definite, and new players dont understand what they are meant to be doing + will just point chase, which isnt such a bad thing, as it at least helps the team to some extent.
Yes some positions arent as rewarding + some are more rewarding than they should be; but the general idea is the same + points point new players in the direction of good play, and reward them for it. I started off as O, and went and attacked in spawn, i am sure. before moving to D when i started to understand the game, and back to O now. I understand mostly how the game works, and i think if you dont reward players for something, they wont know if they are doing the right thing or not. (how many times do you turn to the newb who just blastered the Heavy/shield to death that he did 100% the right thing + at the right time? )

I dunno if my basic point makes sense. Points are useless to everyone who knows the game + are worried about by the newbs who dont. It gives them something to do + they help in their own way, to their limited extent.
I dont think point removal will change anything, except remove a token reward screen from the game.

Bibe

 

[old.$aw$aLL]

Hi guys, I've only been playin since t2 came out so I'm still a newbie. I thought about using strats script but I figured (after watching my son play scrimms and matches) they're not worth it. When he's far from base (playin light D) he just kills himself so he can get back to base faster to defend the flag. If he worried about points, kills, and deaths he'd have a not-so-hot score. As for watching games, nuttin beats a good way to learn strategy. Hope I said all this right
$aw

oh, and I've been in a few clans and no one ever brought me in for my points.....it's either word-of-mouth or I whoop em and they offer an invite.

 

[old.D3-]

We can`t prove it. Noone can unless its put into practise. We can only attempt to imagine the behaviour of a public team where they don`t get points. On such a server they`d only be 2 objective. Get their flag, keep your flag. There`s no points for baserape, turret farming, capping, grabs defence anything. Anyone playing a game does it to achieve an objective. There being only two objectives, and the only way to achieve it is to work as a team, I`d hope players would join a server be able to spot what role needs filled and drop into it. If players want to do their own clanrole then fair enough, I`m sure a mad slavering public team of 16 would have enough loose cannons to move role and fill the gap. Imo a game of this sort would instill a discipline in new players much more quickly than the current pubbies we have now. Everyone is going to be more aware of what wins and loses a map. So when that flag goes walkies, there`s going to be efforts made to keep it on the base.

Good scenario

This is denying unclanned players the experience and buzz of Tribes2 as it was meant to be played. I`m not saying I want pubs to be as intensive as clangames, but they should at least contain teamplay. At the moment less than 5% of maps have this.

I hear 90% of statisitcs are made up?
Mate, you seem to be ignorent to this fact but without teamplay - Tribes2 cannot be played - the entire game falls apart

Every game of Tribes2 has teamplay cause without it, no one can play.

Lets have a look at how they choose just now. Does LeaderA survey the scoreboard and track the top scoring players? No. What happens is LeaderA notices PlayersB nicking the flag all the time, or stopping them capping all the time, or just being a bloody good player in the field all the time. LeaderA notices the player in the battlefield, not in the scoreboard. By your own argument in your initial post, the scoreboard means fuck all. I`m a good player and designed my skill to fill a multiple of roles yet my scoring on the table varies greatly depending on what skill I`m playing. I joined Yautja through the most common means of clan recruitment too. I asked to get in. The majority of players aren`t head hunted.
PlayerB asks LeaderA if they can get in clan. LeaderA asks around for opinions on PlayerA, if anyone played against them, what clans they were in before, etc.. LeaderA will check superstats if PlayerA uses it. LeaderA might remember PlayerB from pubbies and have an idea already of the players skill. LeaderA will put PlayerB on trial in one of 2 scrims to see how the perform.
That`s how players are recruited, a lot more involved than just looking at scores. Personal scores were ok in the days of Quake and UT, but in Tribes it means very little.

Hmmm, well I play as Base Disruption and no one ever notices me yet I'm ( not trying to sound big headed and egotistic ) one of the base base disuption people in my opinion ( and manyo thers who have seen / watched me play ) and the only other base disruption person I respect is [Yautja]CoffeeGirl, we both play LD / MD Base Disruption cause we both know it's better and if thought out, can do more damage than some idiot in a HO spamming mortars

... yet... I never get noticed unless I come at the top of the scoreboard? I've had several invites from several clans but they've all stated my score ( being top of the score chart ) and not once have I seen someone refer to my ability to obliterate an enemy base and keep it offline for pretty much most of the match..

Going on calculations from my first post, you can clearly see that the people who do the hardest jobs get more points:

• Capping a flag - hard job - 50 points
  
• Infiltrating and destroying a base - hard to do when the enemy has defense - 10 points per gen - 2 per invent - 5 per base turret or vehicle pad )
  
• Running around with a repiar pack fixing things - 2 to 4 points.

Is there such a thing as a good repair man in Tribes2? Not really..
Is there such a thing as a good base disruption bloke? Yes
Is there such a thing as a good capper? Of course!

So when you see someone with 700 points, another with 450 points and the rest on the scoreboard with 160, 124, 105, 90, 70 then you know that the people with 700 and 400 HAVE to of been doing their job very well indeed to get those points!

700 points could count as

• 14 flag caps
• A lot of base disrpution!

but it's not gonna count as

• Repairing the base
• Standing on a hill side shooting down shrikes with a missile launcher

The point I'm trying to get out is that the scorechart, if read properly is accurate in putting the base / hardest workers at the top. Not fair to everyone I'll admit but more than fair to the people who put everything they have into the game, score for their team, destroy for their team and work for their team..

Ah, now you`re saying something you can`t prove. Personally, I would love to see a mod ran for a month or so with scoring removed completely (not appearing at map end like the T1 effort) just to see what happens.

Thing is, it is proved, without any form of teamwork, you CANNOT play Tribes2, it's built that way...

For example if your a capper then you need to change profiles right? for that you need power for the invetorys!

Now if that power goes offline by an enemy base disruption bloke, you need people on repairs to go fix the generators right?

Hence > people fix gens > you can change profiles > you get flag > defense at base protects you within a certain range of your own base..

TEAMWORK

There is always TEAMWORK in Tribes2, public servers or clan servers, it's there cause if it's not then you cannot play!

As I said, the only thing that seperates publics from clan matches is organisation.... With clans they plan before the match, they have tactics and work together... in publics this doesn't happen.. people join and play their roles ( which is teamwork, just a major lack of planned organisation between the players ).

Can't prove? I just did!

As for a mod with no points system, yes, I too think it should be given a try