Just watchewd the "fitna" movie

[Olgaline]

before anyone goes off on another marathon link post.
Here's the point of it all, to both sides of the "fence"
What do YOU think? Whats YOUR opinion ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

on a side note tho'
I get just as pissoff when i hear people say f.exp "I dont them muslims"

Yeah, that's really confusing 'cause i wouldn't know what the f*ck that means either

 

[Chronictank]

First of all I've state my personal experiance with the muslims I know and have met.

It may be your personal opinion but you said "muslims need to..." whereas you should have said "my muslim friends need to.." i will come onto your next point in a second, but your personal experience is exactly that so i don't see how you can translate it to a wider audience if all you have done is based your opinion on a VERY small subset

secondly I've been talking about the broader perspective, what so why should i "proove" anything to you ?
and especially why should i proove what british muslims do or dont do when i live in denmark ?

It's a discussion, you make a point then back it up with something
thats how it works
You arent talking about a broader perspective by any means because as you said before, your entire argument is based on your personal experience. I really cant see how you can post that and then knock me for giving you sources for organisatiosn who have a significantly higher representation

Also I Never suggested that muslims break the law did I ? go back and read what i wrote..

I did, YOU read what i wrote;
these are your exact words

that all relions have to obiede by the law of a soveran nation, "even Islam"

You incinuate that religions think, and in the context of this discussion more sepcifiically Muslims are above the law, i simply asked you to give me a case where a law has been broken and nothing has become of it because of their faith.
I then added in case i misinterpreted what i thought you were refering to from a previous discussion of the addition of Sharia law being added to UK laws and clarified the context in which this discussion took place

and yet again you keep posting links

I posted links supporting a REAL majority view of muslims in Britain, by an organisation representative of a large number of muslims in the UK, thus a real broader perspective,
the country these forums are based on is the UK therefore taken as a given unless you specifically say "danish muslims", that you are refering to the UK and such i used the UK press as an example of 'Muslims condeming terrorists'
If you clicked even a few of them you would have realised this as alot of them refer to the Muslim Council of Britain from which i also posted more sources for you

, and threads and attack brittish and danish news papers,

I dont attack anyone, i brought up examples of where free speech was equally being abused to proove a point

when Already i said ALL relions ALL culters.

No you said

Moderate muslims really need to get off thier asses, and distance them selves from fundementalists and radicalists,

You may say the 'same damn thing' to everyone else, but the focus of this discussion is the above

and you say the danish cartoons ???
No it's not the "danish cartoons" it's cartoons published by one single danish news paper called jyllands posten"
I'm danish and dont assosiate me with those cartoons.

They are commonly refered to as the 'danish cartoons', and as such i refered to them that way (just plug danish cartoons in google to proove my point)
I did in no way incinuate that they were a representation of all danish press, if you took it that way i apologise

Altho I'll say this, I'll always defend the right to publish it even if i might not aproove, the same as I'll defend your right to disaproove or demonstrate agianst it.
they were reprinted by the major danish new papers after a plot to assasinate one of the cartoonists was uncovered.
wich I also didnt find taste full. but thats my personal opinion, and I for one am proud to be part of a country where all have a right to free speach and a right to practice relion and to protest and demonstrate and where goverment and relion have long been seperated. and I'll defend that to my dieng breath.

Which is exactly the point when i refered to them.... If you re-read my post instead of jumping the gun. I pointed out the hypocracy in your argument when you said

any form of properganda or polarization towards other races or relions is not ok

Be default this SHOULD be ok because it is the same thing, regardless of personal view they should be able to spout whatever nonsense they like
On one hand you want censorship in the other you want freedom of speech
If your point was that people should be saying what is published is wrong, i again gave you a example of people saying exactly that

Yet YOU personally never state that YOU dissaproove do you ?
but you'll sure as hell bring it to our attention and disaproove when the european media steps out of bound.

You very obviously dont read my posts, do a search on my name and you will see i am pretty active in discussing such issues.
But the fact of the matter is you wanted to discuss this on a more general basis, and as such that makes my personal opinions mute if they arent supported by a significant representation of muslims. If you asked me on a personal level i will give you my view as i have done in many a post on various isssues on this forum

It's all fine and I apllaud the muslims orginizations that distance them selves from radicalism but thats not what I'm talking about is it?

I'm talking about the single individuals, when i meet and talk to them on a one to one basis or at birthdays, wedding ect you name it aka "on a personal level" becuase thats to me what counts, and where it matters.

As i said before, they arent even close to a representative view
In fact they are more than likely to be a very skewed view as they are likely to be shaped by roughly the same experiences, so when talking in general terms they are not a good basis

problem for me occours when one relgion/cultur demands that it must be totalitarion, witrhout posibility of coexistance, Then and only then do i object to it. this goes for all, not mearly Islam. as in there can be only one true god under one nation without exeption.

I completely agree with you, but Islam doesnt preach totalitarian law, even in Sharia law they are allowed to practice whatever they like provided it doesn't contradict islamic law.
I.e. the law of their religion doesn't contradict the law of the land, prime example consumption of alcohol.
translated quote from the qu'ran

"whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right—shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret."

 

[Olgaline]

to the the first half of your responce all i can say is /shrug
blatant nit and picking, parafrasing and mixing up my comments to suit your points.

to the second half tho' well formulated and informative so thanks for that
lastly:
ok fair enough, whats your personal views then ?
I'm curiouse..


and toht

 

[Chronictank]

- any act of violence in the name of any religion is not ok,
- any urging or apeal of violence in the name of religion is not ok,

Always, there is no excuse at all for taking an innocent life
There is no mainstream religion i know of which preaches that it is ok to do so, the only people who believe this is the case are the ignorant who take the word of someone else

- any form of properganda or polarization towards other races or relions is not ok

Again i agree compeltely, however it should be all or nothing
Completely free speech, meaning there is no holds barred or limited free speech covering everyone not just iscolating one target group
Be it a facist party or a Hate Cleric

- all relions have the right to co-exist there is no "one" true relion. (respect of another persons religion/beliefe)

Completely agree with your ammended version

- that all relions have to obiede by the law of a soveran nation, "even Islam"

Yes, however the law is not a static piece of legistlation it should always evolve to best suite the populous it governs, so introducing some sharia law aspects would not be a bad thing for example victim choosing punishments/compensation for some crimes

 

[Platin]

wouldnt surprise me if George W. financed this shite.


Will we ever see a movie about what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinians ? ofc not thats anti-semitism, and we are not allowed to criticise the Jews are we ?

Big up to the muslims, Jihad against the right wing christians & jews that run the USA, the media and most of the worlds fuckin money.

I don't know what country you live in, but in general(Europe) the newsflow is pretty balanced. The palestinians gets off pretty light alot of times though since they are the "victims" of everything. During 2007 Israel got hit by over a thousand rockets and mortars from Hamas and Hezbollah, but has any paper brought that up? Since 2001, over 5000 rockets and mortars have hit Israel, have you heard about that?

Leave your conspiracy theories at home, because you sound like an idiot.

 

[Platin]

Yes, however the law is not a static piece of legistlation it should always evolve to best suite the populous it governs, so introducing some sharia law aspects would not be a bad thing for example victim choosing punishments/compensation for some crimes

Even if they go against the basic principles of basic western judicial thinking?

 

[Lamp]

Leave your conspiracy theories at home, because you sound like an idiot.

Zede's comment is complete arse gravy

 

[Iceforge]

Not to ruin anything to you, Olgaline, but you talk about you are proud to be living in a country where Religion and state has long been seperated, yet, we both live in Denmark...

A country where...

Everybody is member of the national protestant church by birth and has to sign themselves out from the church, if they do not wish to be paying contributions to the church over taxes...

Alll religions has to be approved by the national protestant church before they be accepted as a religious view to be respected in any aspect regarding law and state...

Don't seem very seperate to me.... but hey... each their opinion...

On topic, the Fitna movie...
I don't see how anyone could be offended by it, but then again, I couldn't see how anyone could be offended by the danish cartoons neither, but many was.
I do not like it, due to it being very onesided and while it might aspire hatred and violent reactions in the Muslim part of the world like the danish cartoons, it also got the potential to further brainwash some of the racistic people living here in the western world, making them feel confirmed in their narrowminded worldview.

Through, I find it equally bad that some people don't want it to be made in the first place and people making lifethreats has had it removed from several sites on the internet. Anyone, no matter how narrowminded and stupid they are, should have the right to publish and display videos and nobody should interfer with videos such displayed.

Threatning the wellbeing of other people will ALWAYS be worse than making, showing and distributing OPINIONS, even if those opinions are displayed as FACTS when false.

Critizing and distancing oneself from it is fine, and I understand those who say they wish it had never been made, as it is just a stupid provocation of some people that experience has showed got a low temper when offended, but that doesn't make it right to remove rights, specificly the right to freedom of speech, from people who can't control themselves from doing such provocations.

 

[Chronictank]

Even if they go against the basic principles of basic western judicial thinking?

Yes, always
for the simple fact that just because it is 'western judicial thinking' doesnt mean it is automatically the right way of thinking

Law is always in flux, if it wasn't and it remained static it would be what alot of people here critisize.. a religion

 

[Gorbachioo]

Arguing whether Islam is a violent religion or not is just stupid. Ofcourse it is. Its a religion afterall. I know the Islam lovers have a hard time dealing with this but the quotes in the movie are in the Quran no matter are they taken out of context or not. If you can put them in to a non violent context for me i promise you i will convert to Islam immediately.

But does that mean that all muslims are jihadists? No. Im a christian and i dont go around killing people who work on sundays. Not even the pope does that even though it is clearly said in the bible that people who work on sundays have to be killed. Most religions are dangerous if you're a fundamentalist.

As long as we're not punishing christians for things that we have in our "holy book" then it shouldnt be an issue for anyone else. Only if they act on it.

 

[Platin]

Yes, always
for the simple fact that just because it is 'western judicial thinking' doesnt mean it is automatically the right way of thinking

Law is always in flux, if it wasn't and it remained static it would be what alot of people here critisize.. a religion

I didn't know there was a "right way of thinking". It's not only about judicial principles since they are formed by society norms and moral. I for one, does not want Europe to strive to become like the islamic countries.

 

[Chronictank]

I didn't know there was a "right way of thinking". It's not only about judicial principles since they are formed by society norms and moral. I for one, does not want Europe to strive to become like the islamic countries.

Quote me where i say it should
I said that the laws should reflect the populous of that country,
if a proposed law was an improvement on the current system why would the source make any difference at all?

 

[Mey]

Technically speaking all Muslims are jihadists as its a fundamental part of their faith..

(ofc I refer to Jihad in the context of the inner-battle with your self)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Technically speaking all Muslims are jihadists as its a fundamental part of their faith..

(ofc I refer to Jihad in the context of the inner-battle with your self)

Didn't the Islam Five sing about it?

J I H, it's easy as,
A and D, as simple as
do, re, mi. J I H, A and D,
put a Jihad on thee!

 

[Gorbachioo]

Technically speaking all Muslims are jihadists as its a fundamental part of their faith..

(ofc I refer to Jihad in the context of the inner-battle with your self)

Technically speaking all christians are massmurderers as killing people for the wierdest reasons is a fundamental part of our faith.

But are we really?

 

[Platin]

Quote me where i say it should
I said that the laws should reflect the populous of that country,
if a proposed law was an improvement on the current system why would the source make any difference at all?

And that's exactly what they do right now. Improvement or thinking right is subjective, to you it would be an improvement, to me it wouldn't be.

 

[Mey]

Technically speaking all christians are massmurderers as killing people for the wierdest reasons is a fundamental part of our faith.

But are we really?

All muslims participate in Jihad (context of inner battle) not all christians participate in mass-murder.

Ah-ha finally found a link to back up what my RE teacher had been saying to be all that time ago! The Spiritual Significance of Jihad
.

 

[Zede]

I don't know what country you live in, but in general(Europe) the newsflow is pretty balanced. The palestinians gets off pretty light alot of times though since they are the "victims" of everything. During 2007 Israel got hit by over a thousand rockets and mortars from Hamas and Hezbollah, but has any paper brought that up? Since 2001, over 5000 rockets and mortars have hit Israel, have you heard about that?

Leave your conspiracy theories at home, because you sound like an idiot.

Had to be one fuckwit on here with fox news tendancies.( Lamp not included, hes king of the fuckwit hill without even trying). Do tell, where do you get your idea the newsflow is "pretty balanced" ? the world according to Platin ? your hilarious, and dumb as they come, grats on being another sheeple.

No conspiracy theories here - just 100% fact on whats happening in Palestine. Do yourself a favour , go to your local library & get out : Palestine (Sacco comic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I suspect your in your early 20s, rather impressionable, one of those " its on the news so it must be true" synapse deficient type individuals. Eat more greens, fruit & get some exercice, it might improve your capacity to think.

heres one for you fuckwit - 5000 rockets you say - how many rockets do you think $3,000,000,000 a year buys Israel ? ( thats what the usa GIVES Israel each year) Please reply, attempt some wit - gimmeh your right wing propaganda, ive got a mountain of material here to contradict you.

 

[Zede]

Zede's comment is complete arse gravy

Just so everyone knows.

Lamp, our resident troll of trolls - believes this :-

Hes convinced during the 80s he was snorting £1000s of pounds worth of Cocaine every single week. His attempt to look "tony montana" cool failed badly in a recent thread.

You want arse gravy ? Your the stinking result of 20 sumo wrestlers attending a session of Colonic Hydrotherapy.

 

[~Latency~]

zede you whiney hater

 

[Chronictank]

that attack was rather uncalled for Zede,

While lamp does post unrelated drivel (some of which is quote funny imo ) in almost every thread, it is no different than usual if he posted a one liner/pic in this thread.
As for platin, he may have a very skewed perspective for whatever reason surely it would be better and more productive to actually discuss the issue and disprove his points? instead of a silly and relatively unprovoked flame

I suggest you edit it out for the mistake it is before this turns into a flame fest, i think i see the vultures circling already

 

[Marc]

Hes convinced during the 80s he was snorting £1000s of pounds worth of Cocaine every single week. His attempt to look "tony montana" cool failed badly in a recent thread.

lol

 

[Zede]

banging ones head against a brick wall would be more affective than trying to educate the likes of lamp and platin, thats just the way the world is. all we need now is marc to pop his head in and the circle will be complete.

sorry not going chapter & verse cronic, its pointless. just read palestine by joe sacco, thats all I ask of people to do.

edit...hes in !...but not pressing the angry button yet, yay ( sorry marc, you confounded me with no slagging me off from the off)

 

[Marc]

Just for the record, Zede once threatened that him and mates were going to shoot me.

And he thinks Lamp is a Tony Montana wannabe??

 

[Zede]

Just for the record, Zede once threatened that him and mates were going to shoot me.

And he thinks Lamp is a Tony Montana wannabe??

repped ! i believe it was " pop your ass with my homies" or some other drivel either / or responding to your macho stance in what ever thread it was

ps. much rather have been howard marks

 

[~Latency~]

death to the infidels

z0mg

 

[Platin]

Had to be one fuckwit on here with fox news tendancies.( Lamp not included, hes king of the fuckwit hill without even trying). Do tell, where do you get your idea the newsflow is "pretty balanced" ? the world according to Platin ? your hilarious, and dumb as they come, grats on being another sheeple.

Swedish media is probably the most pro-palestinian media aparatus in the western world, everything that the palestinians do is justified in a related larger article about what Israel has done to provoke them. I try to look with a critical view on what's written. If anything, I'm sick of all the crap that is being written here. Generally I think that the top news networks in Europe like CNN and BBC give a fair point of view on the conflict, especially since media loves the little guy, and loves to bash the big "bad guy".

No conspiracy theories here - just 100% fact on whats happening in Palestine. Do yourself a favour , go to your local library & get out : Palestine (Sacco comic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Your breathtaking and groundbreaking link doesn't work.

I suspect your in your early 20s, rather impressionable, one of those " its on the news so it must be true" synapse deficient type individuals. Eat more greens, fruit & get some exercice, it might improve your capacity to think.

I'm a 24 year old grad student, I study informatics and I have studied a year of social science and history. How old are you? I'm perfectly healthy, tank you very much.

heres one for you fuckwit - 5000 rockets you say - how many rockets do you think $3,000,000,000 a year buys Israel ? ( thats what the usa GIVES Israel each year) Please reply, attempt some wit - gimmeh your right wing propaganda, ive got a mountain of material here to contradict you.

There's a big diffrence between USING weapons and BUYING weapons. Considering Israel has been subjected to three wars by the the arab states, and non-stop terrorist actions, can you really blame them for wanting to defend themselves? Israel's weapons are expensive high tech weapons, designed for precision and minimal civilian deaths. The palestinian rockets are not (the cartoon at the bottom says it all).



The context of what you're writing is that the world media is against the palestinian people because of a jewish/right-wing christian conspiracy, to me that is a wild theory (not a very original one though). I bet you believe that sept 11 was a conspiracy too, and that the planes really were american cruise-missiles.

An interesting note is that UN:s involvement in the conflict, and their so-called neutrality has just gotten itself a blow since they recently apointed Richard Falk (american professor in law) as their special investigator regarding the human rights situation in the occupied areas in Palestine. He has compared Israel to Nazi-Germany and has compared what is happening right now to the holocaust, basically he is as biased as they come and can in no way conduct objective research on the issue. But the UN wants to make noice, and the best way to do that is not to be objective.

Richard A. Falk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kivik]

Israel's weapons are expensive high tech weapons, designed for precision and minimal civilian deaths.

LOL

 

[Azurus]

BBC and CNN pro-palestinian? I would say they are more moderate (if i had to chose i would say they are more pro-Israeli, especially CNN).

I will continue to despise the Israel governement as long as they;

1) Refuse to accept the internationally recognised two state solution

2) brutally opress the Palestinian people both econmically and militarily resulting in the deaths of thousands.