Jim Jones

[Tom]

This is one of the most depressing and haunting things I've heard in years.

http://archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

The background is that in the 1970s, Jim Jones, an evangelical preacher, took a few hundred followers to Guyana to establish a socialist commune. The usual nonsense ensured, drugs, sex with his followers, various claims of abuse, etc. Then US congressman Leo Ryan took some interested people to see Jones. They were attacked and so left for the airport, where on Jones's orders, they were murdered. Only a few survived. There's footage of the attack here (some conspiracy video I haven't investigated):


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HULqx4SP46Y


Jones then told his followers that their only route to salvation was to kill themselves - and that's exactly what they did - over 900 of them, including children, killed by cyanide poisoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

There are plenty of photographs online showing the extent of the horror - but it's the tape that I found most disturbing. The recording lasts about 45 minutes, but it doesn't feel anywhere near that long. You can hear the desperation in their voices, the screams of frightened children (indistinguishable I think from their later screams, as cyanide is sprayed down their throats). There's slow-motion music audible on the recording, that's music from a previous recording that wasn't properly erased.

I listened to this last night. It took me a good hour or so longer than it usually does, for me to sleep.

 

[Shagrat]

a very depressing incident indeed. parallels with Koresh really.

those very forcefully charismatic individuals scare me because there always seem to be a large number of people willing to put aside there own lives/problems/feelings/thought processes for the easy option of someone doing the thinking for them and it always seems to end in blood and tears.

 

[Scouse]

One word: Belief


Don't think I'll be listening to that. I can only imagine so much and I reckon that'll be worse

 

[Tom]

It's more depressing than it is horrific. It's a very good reminder of how malleable the human mind is.

 

[Moriath]

It's more depressing than it is horrific. It's a very good reminder of how malleable the human mind is.

Except yours tom because it is obviously superior

 

[Access Denied]

The human mind is only malleable once they've found the trigger or weakness. The trick is to find that trigger yourself and get rid of it.

 

[Scouse]

The human mind is only malleable once they've found the trigger or weakness. The trick is to find that trigger yourself and get rid of it.

That sounds like wise words, or it could be utter bunkum Mr Denied.

Care to elaborate?


BTW - isn't Toht suspiciously absent from this thread?

 

[Gwadien]

On his Wikipedia page, he's Atheist?

 

[Scouse]

On his Wikipedia page, he's Atheist?

Where?

And Buddhism insists it's not a religion. But that's a crock of shit

 

[Job]

It's a religion that has just eradicated a whole village in Burma
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/10/28/269149/west-silent-on-genocide-of-rohingyas/

Though it's not really a religious problem,they just happen to be religious people.

 

[Scouse]

Though it's not really a religious problem,they just happen to be religious people.

Yep it is. I posted on this previously - it's Buddhists wiping out muslims because they're muslims and not Buddhists - with the active backing of the Buddhist clergy.

 

[Gwadien]

Yep it is. I posted on this previously - it's Buddhists wiping out muslims because they're muslims and not Buddhists - with the active backing of the Buddhist clergy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

 

[Scouse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

That's only in the sense that the Pope is probably an atheist.

Wiki gets that label from Jones in this transcript from an interveiw with Bill Maher where he at first claims to be agnostic, then atheist and all whilst still working in his church.

Basically - he's full of shit - like all power-seekers in religious institutions are as they take advantage of humans through their devotion to religion.

Maher: It was a real shot in the arm, not only just to see the Temple, but to— to see some people out on the street actually doing some things for some real causes in a disciplined and adult fashion, instead of just a bedlam. I mean, it’s uh—

Jones: Well, I’m really heart and mind with you. I’m uh, you know, an agnostic. We have a— some emphasis on the terms of paranormal, because uh, it brings results, uh, there is something to therapeutic healing, all medical science has proven, but we don’t link that with any kind of causative factor of a loving God. Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist. Uh, we— we think Jesus Christ was a swinger. He taught some pretty damn good things at feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, uh, maybe a little paternalistic, but it’s still uh— all the emphasis of the judgment of character— the only time he ever mentioned judgment at all was in Matthew 25, and it had to do totally with what you were doing for other people, so we— we emphasize the teachings of Christ, but um, we’re a— we are as um— we’re the most unusual church I’ve ever run into, in— in this sense, uh, and we state in the church— I would’ve loved to have been in the foundation. For some years, I’ve been talking to our attorneys to try to get in a foundation, but we have such an influence in the denomination— Our bishop was here Sunday, that’s why we wanted you to meet him and the president of our— of our denomination, I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the— the— the denomination, it’s called the Disciples of Christ. It includes the FBI Director [Clarence Kelley], [Former President] Lyndon Baines Johnson, I think, Senator Monsdale [Sen. Walter Mondale] to give you some background of it—

Maher: Oh, my God, it’s—

Jones: And see, we’re linked, not only as Peoples Temple have— I have my own bishopry of the churches I’ve founded, of about 70,000 members altogether, but (stumbles over words), I’m in official capacity, assistant DA [Tim Stoen] who’s a member is also in official capacity, in the regional denomination of two million. It’s— uh, that stateswide. So we— Giving up the church meant giving up that kind of influence, uh, our— our whole denomination comes out with the most radical kinds of postures, and it’s always Peoples Temple’s caucus that does that—

Maher: Right.

Jones: —So— Otherwise, I would have left the church. I...

...yadda yadda yadda....

Jones: Well, thank you for the feedback, ‘cause, I must say, I felt somewhat hypocritical for the last years as I became uh, an atheist, uh, I have become uh, you— you feel uh, tainted, uh, by being in the church situation. But of course, everyone knows where I’m at. My bishop knows that I’m an atheist. He— He knows that I— I— I recognize only love, when I say— I’ll say, "God is Love"— well, you heard my preaching. You know where I’m at.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit powergrab powergrab powergrab powergrab.

He knows that people are going to read this shit, y'know...

 

[old.Tohtori]

BTW - isn't Toht suspiciously absent from this thread?

I don't even have to comment to affect discussions. Hmm. Now, I am become death, the destroyer of threads

Anyhoo, what should i comment? That this was horrible(in a sense of the word)? Ofcourse. Do i care about it much? No more then any other act of humanity where people die.

A mentally unstable person managed to massmurder people by brainwashing. He could've as easily done it as an atheist, buddhist, or a satanist. Scientifically speaking; could he have done this as an atheist? Yes. That means his personal beliefs have nothing to do with it, he simply chose to use belief as a weapon. Only -fact- here is that he's a bad bad man, you don't need religion to be dangerous.

And that's about it on the subject, any questions on a postcard.

 

[Zenith]

Mmmm, Jim Jones. Horrific and mindblowing incident, and a case brimmed full with information regarding the malleability of the human mind, and the power of peer pressure and leadership. He actually managed toget them to GIVE UP LIFE, to kill themselves, and he used some really scary systematic ways to achieve it. Had trials with supposedly cyanide-spiked grapejuice, that turned out to be fine, to root out the people who panic and deal with them.

 

[Zenith]

Agreed with Tohtori, he made them believe the only way to reach the after life was through suicide. This has been done in a religious context or a straight paranormal context. I'd argue it show the power of Belief, regardless of context.

 

[Marc]

Derren Brown couldnt do what Jim Jones did without the use of actors.

Jim Jones > Derren Brown

 

[Scouse]

This has been done in a religious context or a straight paranormal context

Same thing.

I'd argue it show the power of Belief, regardless of context.

My first post

 

[Zenith]

Ya, sorry, didnt read it! Was mostly replied to later posts.

In the sense of believing in something higher than yourself, an after life, ye, paranormal and religious contexts are the same, and most of the tricks to get conformity is the same.

 

[fettoken]

There is actually a (very low budget) movie made about these incidents. Not sure exactly how accurate it depicts these events, but it certainly doesnt pay tribute to the victims.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Agreed with Tohtori, he made them believe the only way to reach the after life was through suicide. This has been done in a religious context or a straight paranormal context. I'd argue it show the power of Belief, regardless of context.

I actually meant that the context sold to the masses doesn't matter, be it science, religion, paranormal, grannys apple syrup. Any human, of any belief, or there lack of, could be the headline of this kind of a story.

Cult of personality if anything; could a random person have told them the same speech and get them kill themselves? Probably not.

 

[opticle]

Very scary stuff. Belief is such a dangerous thing.

I'd say crazy for watching it - no surprise it affected your sleep, it's so unsettling - but I know how hard it is not to watch/listen to this kind of thing. It has this weird pull to it, because it defies all logic and just doesn't make any sense, you want to understand it and you just can't.

The world can be a fucking awful place - with some fucking awful people, and stupid, easily led people too. This is one extreme - he got over 900 followers. Less extreme, but nonetheless dangerous and crazy things get even more followers and they're all out there.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

 

[Scouse]

I'll admit the beginning of that appeals to me on an emotional level.

It panders to the worst part of the mammal in me.

It's wrong tho, obviously

 

[sayward]

Just watched the BBC2 documentary on Jonestown from last week. Storyville? Thought I'd seen it before but no. Definitely more insightful. Lots of interviews with survivors. I always thought it was a mass suicide, more like a mass murder.