It's long, starts with an N....it's the News!

[old.Desdecado]

I just read this on the official Daoc Web page, and i am frankly appalled.

I have spent my entire working life delivering, upgrading and updating multi lingual, multi server high volume distributed systems. I empathise with DaoC's issues but i absolutely DO NOT sympathise.

It is about time that the mythic / goa arrangement started to ship code that used language files (the rest of the world has been doing this for decades). The fact that there has been a european version is no longer a new concept, both parties need to sort this aspect of the relationship out. Otherwise DAOC Europe is going to be surpassed by the next MMORPG. The usa version has so many more features than the european version, battle realms, darkness falls et al. DF is not even going to be in the next patch set for Europe, thats before we start talking about the 1.50 realm abilities, or the play balance issues.

Every time i have glanced at the server status page, there are over 17,000 subscribers playing this game. Even if you assume that 50% of the base are playing that would be 34,000 x £6 (GBP) which is £180,000 per month. Thats not an insubstantial income to realise.

I have just renewed for my second month. Things need to improve to keep my custom.

I dont want to seem to 'bash' GOA, but i do expect a quality of product for the monies i am paying. In short your news item tells me 2 things.

a) You still have no grip on conversion and testing process
b) you have not got enough staff for the enterprise you are running.

regards

Desdecado, Prydwen server

and as regards the unable to move servers by nationality independantly, try buying and using some code control software.

 

[old.chesnor]

The biggest problem I can see is the frequency of Euro patches is much slower than US. It has taken almost a month for 1.48, and I suspect this is smaller than the patches that will take us to 1.50. Clearly the process is too slow, and it is inconcievable that we will ever synchronise with the US version. This is enormously frustrating and I have already seen many players leave the game completely or go back to US servers.

The testing process could be speeded up massively by using Gorre and providing players a simplified bug reporting system. I know this has been touted on the GOA website, but it really needs no debate.

As for using a language localisation system, my guess is that the game was designed in English and it would mean much reverse engineering to design this into the game (at absolutely no benefit to Mythic)

 

[old.FeLiZk]

Time saving idea

Okay, so this is DAoC europe. Why do we have to translate it?

I see no reason for this. To my knowlegde this is not common practise in games. Its only a stopping stone!

Who, i say WHO, wouldn't prefer a more updated game as opposed to a German or French one ?

I cant see who's the winner of this translation business. 10-year-olds? If you want to play the game it requires some knowlegde, in this case English. Is it french and german pride that is keeping the patches on the distance?

I seriosly think GOA has to reevaluate their priorities. Better / Newer game OR translated game ?

I might be ignorant here but inlighten me! WHY oh WHY not offer the people that CAN read and understand english the best?

The translation proces and all the effort you have put into it might have been wasted, but we'd all get a better game, benefits the players and GOA in smaller staff and more attention to what really matters, as events and maintenance.

Bottomline, i don't think either the players or GOA doubt how crowded a server would be if it'd have 1.49 english. Give the players a say in this matter. Start a poll you'll se the answers running in! Im know the result and i KNOW GOA does too!

Just my thoughts.

ps: again: I might be ignorant here but inlighten me!

 

[Aeiedil]

personally im beginning to think there is one major way forward, perhaps a poll sent out to each of goa's subscribers, seeing if they would rather have the patches on time, or the patches translated, because it seems to be one or the others. if a large majority (80% or so) would rather have the patches in english then that should be how they are run, but if the majority is not that big then by all means leave it as it is this imo would be the best way to go anyway

 

[old.FeLiZk]

My beef

Exactly, since there are so many unsatisfied subscribers out there it would actually make sense to let the subscribers decide what they want. Common market analysis i should think let the poll run for a couple of weeks to get the majority of answers in.

Give the power to the subscribers in a manner of speaking!

PS: it wouldn't take much from GOA's side to create a such Poll.

 

[angara-ffs]

What are u all whining about.
The US serers started earlier then the EU version.
Give the guyz a break, i know it is frustrating, but i am sure the work as hard as the can.
Just play and have fun.....isntead of nagging about patches and stuff.
It is a GAME!!

 

[old.HiredGoon]

well, it is not wise to hack down 90% of a community by saying they should just be happy. Besides, it is not doable.

The only REAL problem as i see it, is that US and EU are not in sync. If the EU players did not know about the US version and all its wonders, there would not be a problem.

It is true that US version has been here longer. but this is also caused by that ever so lovingly translation period.

It is also true that its just a game. But lets have some common sense here. Would you settle for space Invaders, if you could have the brand new Flight Sim? of course not.

If you ask me, people do tend to emphasize, that EU r teh sUk, and US r teh RAWK (no offence meant), but the problem will persist until the developers show signs of progress.

Personally, i dont really care so much that we are lagging behind. I dont care too much, that US already has PvP in test, and RP servers. I dont vare too much that US has DF etc.
As long as i get the impression that GOA is working hard to improve their working methods, and that the translation is actually going faster for every patch they ship.

See the horror here: IF they shut down the language based servers, or simply upgraded UK servers first, we would have all the 10 year olds, who would flame us to kingdom come. I would personally play 1.36 forever, if it meant that everyone around me acted civilized and mature.

Regarding the language codes. I seem to remember reading somewhere (official) that the code is indeed made, with the multi lingual community in thought. Wether or not, they actually did a good job making it, is beyond my knowledge. But if my observations in-game, is considered, i would say it could have been better. (You target the Carrion Drake. its aggresive towards you, and is a scout! rofl)
(You begin casting <some disease spell>. You are diseased!
)

But overall, its a well-known fact, that MMORORPGOTRG (or what ever ) is a pain to run. Give the boys a chance, and let them learn how.

What i do, to easen the waiting time, is to simply not know whats happening in US. Its really a waste of time to read about the Glorious US version, as you only get impatient and appaled that you cant have the same things in EU.

the translation period ensures, that we will never be in sync, and lets face it, the translation of patches will never be sacrificed. It wouldnt be fair either, to the french/german customers, to stop it, as they bought the game, with their own language in mind. Imagine if they said; Hm, lets drop the english servers, and just run french/german ones, since theres hardly any players there, compared to the others. How would you react?
one thing you would NEVER do (myself included ) is to go to a french or german server and play. its either US or EQ

ah well, i see all your valid points and arguments, but if you help yourselves, and stop reading US material, you will learn, that it helps enormously. At least, it did for me

 

[old.tRoG]

hey, i am all in favour of faster (english) patches, but the germans and frenchies who CANNOT speak english wouldn't be to pleased, to say the least.

infact, i could probably see the majority of them leaving, in the mindset that GOA is being way more favourable to the english-speaking comunity.

a poll would be the best idea, but i don't think it would end up with 80% saying, 'english patches! yay!'

and BTW, be glad the goa are actually putting something on the news page, let alone a two page report

 

[old.Hendrick]

Actually I think it is quite wise of GOA to translate the game to german and french. Most people play this game on german servers. That's a fact, and I am sure that this has something to do with the game being, well, german. Not everybody speaks english well enough to play a MMORPG, so the french and german guys sure are happy about the translation (though it's quite bad, but still better than nothing). Without the translation, there sure would be less players, so it is obviously worth it for GOA.

 

[old.Desdecado]

Dont get me wrong, i think multi lingual and localised is very important. I am just concerned about the sliding nature of patch conversion. the first set 1.36 to 1.45 was 'months', 1.46 to 1.48 looks like being 2 months. yet mythic appear to release the total code quicker than that.

My crux argument is that DAOC is a business, providing an IT service. Would you be happy with this service rate if it was your tv repairman. dont forget it is a multi-million pound business, not 4 guys in a back room doing this for fun.

I am not aiming to bash GOA, i think they have a hard job, i just wanted to voice my opnion in the community that I do not feel to be 'a satisfied paying customer' and would like to see some improvements.

Desdecado

 

[SFXman]

I have been on the rough ride supporting GOA, but only now after reading this thread I think I have fallen off that track and joined the rest in the... let's say, accepting the facts track
This translation process is obviously taking too long... I mean if they ahve now finished the Albion realm, still need to do half of the hibernian realm and haven't even started the midgard realm, we are going to have to wait a lot longer. This DOESN'T even include the testing which they say will take just as long, I mean... HOW LONG will it still be?! Weeks or maybe even a month.... sigh I wonder what patch the US servers will be on by then, 1.55?!
But anyhoo... go GOA go...

 

[old.Reborn]

I will have to agree with most of the posters here. The translation process is taking to long. I thought they said we would only be weeks behind the U.S, now it looks like we will be several months behind, and the gap will only increase if they don’t speed things up.

Imo they should run the English servers separately from the French/German ones. It should be technically possible, after all in the US you can play on either the beta or the regular servers. It’s probably political issues that are holding them back, not technical ones.

There are several reasons why the English servers have not been that successful. One is that they started much later then the US ones, and many Europeans went to the US servers from the start. A second reason is the delay in patches. People have already left because of this, and if things do not change, I doubt that the number of players on the English servers will ever start to increase.

Some of my Swedish friends play the US version, and it’s much easier for them to recruit other friends to the US version, then it is for me to recruit them to the European English version.

 

[old.FeLiZk]

They say they can't just update the english servers, now is this because they would get crowded by all the german and french dudes or is there something else to it?

If its because of the crowding it must prove our theory right. Subscribers dont want translation, else what would be the problem in updating the english servers ?

 

[old.Reborn]

If they would patch the English servers before the German/France ones, the German/France players would have to accept that they are the ones waiting for the translation, not us. And if they want to play the latest version of the game, they could always start a char on an English GOA server.

Right now GOA are loosing costumers to the US, because of the long translation delay.

 

[old.Organ-Grinder]

what anoys me most is that mythic seem to of made at least 1 patch from scratch and also must of done somesort of coding etc etc to release the very soon upcoming rvr server .. whereas goa have done jack sh1t .
i mean how can mythinc code a new patch with a new area "darkness falls" also code n ready a rvr server for action. and goa cant even translate 3 patches ...
as ive said in a eaerlier thread somewhere why the hell couldnt they just release the patches as thjey translated them ? im sure we would be happy with getting 1 patch as its done as apossed to 3patches months later ..
european servers are gonna lose a LOT of customers when the rvr servers in usa open so if goa is reading this "which i doubt cos they dont give a toss" pull ya finger out ya ass ad do sumin to gain respect and faith in ya customers

 

[Olgark]

I think they should seprate the UK servers from the French and German ones and patch them with the US patches when they are released.
Why should the UK servers have to lag behind just because of the other servers?

And three months for this patch translation is silly, Ultima Online and Everquest do not have this trouble and they are both very succsseful.

*starts to prod GOA with a barge pole to make sure they are still alive* :touch:

mmmmm I think its dead and has been for a while.

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by Olgark
I think they should seprate the UK servers from the French and German ones and patch them with the US patches when they are released.
Why should the UK servers have to lag behind just because of the other servers?

And three months for this patch translation is silly, Ultima Online and Everquest do not have this trouble and they are both very succsseful.

*starts to prod GOA with a barge pole to make sure they are still alive* :touch:

mmmmm I think its dead and has been for a while.

YEH! Yo BarrysWorld, take up the UK servers under your control and get us going!

 

[Shaki/Aeis]

GOA is :sleeping:
and I will always remember them for that.

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by Reborn
If they would patch the English servers before the German/France ones, the German/France players would have to accept that they are the ones waiting for the translation, not us. And if they want to play the latest version of the game, they could always start a char on an English GOA server.

Right now GOA are loosing costumers to the US, because of the long translation delay.

Agreed 100%

I don't get why we the English have to wait for their translation. It should be the other way around.

They'd have to wait for their translation, while we play the game in the language it's developed in.

I'm paying for this product and I don't give a rats ass about the Germans or the French. Haven't read in my manual that this is an French/German game, so why do I have to wait for them?

If they don't want to learn English and play on an English server, let them pay for it by waiting for a translation. NOT the other way around.

 

[old.Reborn]

The problem, as I see it, is that GOA does not seem too able to keep up with mythic. Mythic appears to put out patches and content faster then GOA can translate it. I would not mind if we where only 2-4 weeks behind, but now it has gone over one month and they are only half done with 1.48.

Either hire more staff and speed up the translation or make sure that at least the English servers are up to date.

 

[old.Jierdan]

Read the whole news statement and you'll see they are busy hiring more ppl. These are GM's, but they are also hiring more translators.

 

[Melodic]

I have posted this link to GoA under a get right query so at least they will be forced to read what we are saying. Just in case they hadn't seen this link.

If they don't listen to what their customer base wants then they deserve to go under.

 

[Keri]

Originally posted by Reborn
It’s probably political issues that are holding them back, not technical ones.

Well said, Reborn. I brought up this issue some time ago. I think there is a distinct possibility that the French government has restrictions on non-French usage on French-based servers. I do know that there was a time when only French could be used on French-based websites. The American School in Paris were charged with having a website in English only, and my own brother was forced to use a non-French host for his French B&B website. Maybe French regulations demand that at least the French translation is launched no later than any other language version.

Comment from GOA would be helpful.

 

[Verena]

Look at it from a "costumer" point of view.

I walk by a shop and see the game on the shelves. I search the web and end up at the Camelot Herald.

You pay an xx amount of money for this game when you buy it in shop. This isn't enough, you also pay a monthly fee that enables the company to update the game with new content.

Why am I paying a monthly fee when I don't get the updates that I read about on the Camelot herald?

Where is GOA's statement in my manual that I don't get the updates the same as the US? The only statement from GOA's side was a while ago that once they patched to 1.45 that it would only take a few workdays to patch our version.

If I had only payed for the game in the box I wouldn't complain, but I'm paying a monthly fee. I pay a monthly fee in order to enable Mythic to add content?


Where is the new content I'm paying for every month? The only reason I'm paying a monthly fee is to make sure I get new content added almost every week.

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by Jierdan
Read the whole news statement and you'll see they are busy hiring more ppl. These are GM's, but they are also hiring more translators.

So after taking 1.5 months to translate the patches they finally realised that they can't get it out on time?

Isn't this a bit late, why should I care how they run their company. I don't care that they hired new people, I don't even want to hear what goes on behind the scenes at GOA.

For me this is no excuse, they should've hired those people right when the game went live. They've been receiving our monthly fees sice then and by paying that fee we did our side of the deal. Now it's time for GOA to fulfill their promises. I don't care what problems have come up, or whatever is keeping them from fulfilling their promises.

The OFFICIAL statement was that it would only take a few workdays to catch up with Mythic. Not the 2 months it's been taking them allready and god knows how much longer it will take them.

Just take 1 minute and read through that last announcement again. Do you realise that they're only 50% done? It's been almost 2 months, are we gonna have to wait another whole 2 months?

 

[old.Yomar]

Thought this might be of interest (posted on General Excalibur forum too):

Translation speed
Professional translator here... I've written this on the old forums already, but I guess it can't hurt to write it once more. See www.akebono.nl for my credits

An average translator or software localizer (software localization is, in most cases, just an expensive word for software translation) can translate at least 2000 words per day. I'm currently doing 4000 a day and can do 8000 words per day if I really want to and feel like it.

For those of you who have no idea what 2000 words is like: it's as much as 6 to 7 A4's.

Software localization is very different from translation, but I think I have a right to speak since I'm a professional software localizer. As a matter of fact I'm currently translating a complete enterprise database package. This is a big package, prolly much bigger than DAOC in it's current state. The package resources contain 50.000 words. This will normally take me (just one translator) 25 working days. If I try hard, 12 working days. If I try really hard, just 6 working days. This includes checks on concistency, grammar, spelling, etcetera.

Path 1.45 was implemented on March 27th. Since then, 27 working days (excluding weekends) have passed. Assuming that:

1. Every language is just translated by one translator (which ain't much)
2. This translator has no other projects planned

(based on experience I can say that the above is pretty much a worst-case scenario)...

Patch 1.48 implements at least 27 x 2000 = 54000 *new* words.

That's more than the entire enterprise database software package I'm currently working on (excluding the manual - but DAOC has no manual translations).

I will not mention how much time can be saved by using professional CAT (Computer Assisted Translation) tools, which are much more professional than your average Babelfish translation goodie. I estimate that at least 10% of the new translations can be matched from a database containing all translations that have been done until patch 1.45. This is a realistic estimate.

Assuming the translators use a professional CAT tool, which is a must for software localization, I'd say that patch 1.48 should at least implement 54000 + 5400 = say 60.000 new words (say 200 A4's).

Do the maths

I believe the translation thingy is just a poor excuse. I'm not angry at GOA - actually I love the game and I am very satisfied on the overall. But I don't want GOA to give the translation industry a bad rep just because they need an excuse for a poor implementation policy

Translation quality
Unfortunately there are more bad translators than good translators. The problem is that everybody can call himself/herself a translator.

A good translation is a translation that reads like an original, without the reader ever wondering whether the document is a translation or not.

Too many translators make the mistake of translating far too literally, instead of trying to convey the same idea or thought behind the original. Not to mention the enormous amount of translators who can't even spell or people who think they can translate to anything that is not their mother tongue. Ah, and let's not forget specialized fields like games.

I still remember the Dutch translation of "Turn Undead" in an RPG. The translation rendered to something like "Turn zombie upside down".

About string truncations
Good CAT tools warn for string truncations on the fly

Response to News on GOA site

For example, let's take an item: all its occurrences must be translated identically in all the files: the item file, but also in the NPC talks file if some NPCs mention it. You also need to make sure that the monsters dropping the item are named correctly, or you can end up, after translation, with a 'bandit ear', dropped by a 'brigand' while a quest asks for a 'cutpurse ear' (in German or French of course).


This is what we translators call consistency. Every CAT tool does this on the fly for you. It does not explain the delay, it really doesn't

Suppose you translate the string called "bandit ear" to German. The result is [German translation of "bandit ear"]. The CAT tool memorizes this automatically (if the string is part of a bigger string, then it's custom to basically add all noun combinations and nouns to your terminology database), adding it to the terminology database. Once the word group "bandit ear" pops up 2 days later in an entirely different string, the CAT tool will see this and automatically display the translation used until now in a separate window. Click the translation and voila - it's automatically added in the translation of the new string. In some cases, you don't even need to click anymore - when the CAT tool sees that there's only one possibility for word order and inserts the used translation automatically.

GOA, head to www.atril.com to see what this software can do for you The first month of usage is for free.

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by Yomar
Thought this might be of interest (posted on General Excalibur forum too):

Translation speed
Professional translator here... I've written this on the old forums already, but I guess it can't hurt to write it once more. See www.akebono.nl for my credits

An average translator or software localizer (software localization is, in most cases, just an expensive word for software translation) can translate at least 2000 words per day. I'm currently doing 4000 a day and can do 8000 words per day if I really want to and feel like it.

For those of you who have no idea what 2000 words is like: it's as much as 6 to 7 A4's.

Software localization is very different from translation, but I think I have a right to speak since I'm a professional software localizer. As a matter of fact I'm currently translating a complete enterprise database package. This is a big package, prolly much bigger than DAOC in it's current state. The package resources contain 50.000 words. This will normally take me (just one translator) 25 working days. If I try hard, 12 working days. If I try really hard, just 6 working days. This includes checks on concistency, grammar, spelling, etcetera.

Path 1.45 was implemented on March 27th. Since then, 27 working days (excluding weekends) have passed. Assuming that:

1. Every language is just translated by one translator (which ain't much)
2. This translator has no other projects planned

(based on experience I can say that the above is pretty much a worst-case scenario)...

Patch 1.48 implements at least 27 x 2000 = 54000 *new* words.

That's more than the entire enterprise database software package I'm currently working on (excluding the manual - but DAOC has no manual translations).

I will not mention how much time can be saved by using professional CAT (Computer Assisted Translation) tools, which are much more professional than your average Babelfish translation goodie. I estimate that at least 10% of the new translations can be matched from a database containing all translations that have been done until patch 1.45. This is a realistic estimate.

Assuming the translators use a professional CAT tool, which is a must for software localization, I'd say that patch 1.48 should at least implement 54000 + 5400 = say 60.000 new words (say 200 A4's).

Do the maths

I believe the translation thingy is just a poor excuse. I'm not angry at GOA - actually I love the game and I am very satisfied on the overall. But I don't want GOA to give the translation industry a bad rep just because they need an excuse for a poor implementation policy

Translation quality
Unfortunately there are more bad translators than good translators. The problem is that everybody can call himself/herself a translator.

A good translation is a translation that reads like an original, without the reader ever wondering whether the document is a translation or not.

Too many translators make the mistake of translating far too literally, instead of trying to convey the same idea or thought behind the original. Not to mention the enormous amount of translators who can't even spell or people who think they can translate to anything that is not their mother tongue. Ah, and let's not forget specialized fields like games.

I still remember the Dutch translation of "Turn Undead" in an RPG. The translation rendered to something like "Turn zombie upside down".

About string truncations
Good CAT tools warn for string truncations on the fly

Response to News on GOA site

For example, let's take an item: all its occurrences must be translated identically in all the files: the item file, but also in the NPC talks file if some NPCs mention it. You also need to make sure that the monsters dropping the item are named correctly, or you can end up, after translation, with a 'bandit ear', dropped by a 'brigand' while a quest asks for a 'cutpurse ear' (in German or French of course).


This is what we translators call consistency. Every CAT tool does this on the fly for you. It does not explain the delay, it really doesn't

Suppose you translate the string called "bandit ear" to German. The result is [German translation of "bandit ear"]. The CAT tool memorizes this automatically (if the string is part of a bigger string, then it's custom to basically add all noun combinations and nouns to your terminology database), adding it to the terminology database. Once the word group "bandit ear" pops up 2 days later in an entirely different string, the CAT tool will see this and automatically display the translation used until now in a separate window. Click the translation and voila - it's automatically added in the translation of the new string. In some cases, you don't even need to click anymore - when the CAT tool sees that there's only one possibility for word order and inserts the used translation automatically.

GOA, head to www.atril.com to see what this software can do for you The first month of usage is for free.

Damn dude, sweet post! GOA listen up

 

[old.Ayeye]

Really nice post Yomar.

I have another question... do you think is there any programmer at Goa that can handle Daoc?
I hope only that when they found a bug they do not have to wait for Mythic to fix it for them...
I hope also in Goa there is an american programmer coming directly from Mythic that works full time to fix translations bugs....
BTW I'm a bit angry with Mythic too because really Mythic seems to do not care about destiny of european servers...
I've changed my mind also about the closing of European forums....
I think that the only thing that Mythic has done was to force Goa to shut down the forums because they gave to Daoc bad bad reputation...

What do you think?

I can only uke: by this situation....

 

[old.Gorthol]

whi couldnt mythic just have set up some servers on US, that was intended for EU players, that way you vould still have RvR at reasonable times and you would get patches a whole lot quicker

 

[old.Jierdan]

Originally posted by Gorthol
whi couldnt mythic just have set up some servers on US, that was intended for EU players, that way you vould still have RvR at reasonable times and you would get patches a whole lot quicker

1. Now they don't have to provide (and pay for) bandwith for the EU-servers.
2. They don't have to give support (in- and out-game).
3. GOA pays a monthly fee to keep the rights to run servers in EU (i'm not sure about this one though, but it makes sense).